Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

[azanon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaHa 20 year olds fight our wars. Until recently 20 year olds had a lot of our babies. Probably many of us have mothers or grandmothers who were 20 or so when their first children were born. 20 year olds are perfectly capable of being adults. It is true that many of them don't much want to, but that holds for older people too. Ha

You're exactly right. 50 and 60 year old somethings send in kids to fight and die for problems they created; problems they probably have little grasp of themselves.

Just because a kid can make another kid doesn't make them an adult. What concerns me, Ha, is that you're not aware of this.

A 20 year old is a budding, beginning adult, but most of them still need some help. Mean ole Azanon falls on the side of wanting to still help them along. Hmm, I seem to have created an anomoly you guys get to wrestle with. Certainly, i should be on the cold side that won't help, but i'm not.

[azanon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tio z Wow, you are one bitter whatever. Tio z

What was your point? The only kind of bitterness I allow myself is the kind i take pleasure in. I'm well aware of the negative health effects of stress, and anything stressful I let go of very quickly for that reason. Trust me, revenge can be and often is very pleasurable.

[azanon]

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Originally Posted by Nords I never thought that I'd read myself writing this, but you guys are all making the military academies look attractive...

I chuckle at those that thing that military academies are free. You pay out of your ass every single day, every minute of the day. It is the closest i've come to hell on earth, so far.

[azanon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaHa I think your decision is admirable. But I would disagree strongly that one must figure college costs into the decision to have children. Would you rather be a young person who needs to fund his own post secondary education or one who was never born? The "never born" option doesn't give much respect to the resourcefulness of the child. Ha

You're pretty decent at rationalizing. If only that could make it right.

[azanon]

One more post on this, lol.

I am sensitive to those families who simply do not make enough income to pay a substantial portion of a college education, and I realize sometimes the money genuinely isnt there. Fortunately, many of our laws are designed to provide increased financial aid for kids from families that simply are not of the means to have been able to save for it.

That being said, we're on an ER forum, where a poll showed the bulk of people sitting on a net worth in excess of 1 million dollars. We're on a forum where the majority of the people we're so successful with money and smart living that they can pull off retiring in their 50s, 40s, and sometimes even 30s. If this describes you, you can afford to help your son or dauther out pay the massive expense associated with college, and perhaps get them a cost effective, used car to start off on life since most places you need to go cannot be gotten to by foot. I'd be different if it just cost a few hundred bucks that they could easily save up for working at McDonalds from 16 to 18.

[youbet]

Az,

Have you opened a 529 or ESA account for your child yet?

[justin]

Az,

Where do you draw the line for subsidizing your kid's lifestyle? Clearly for you it is sometime after 21. You pay their way through college (including tuition, fees, a car+insurance, health ins., etc). Then they graduate at ~21-22, and by this time the car you gave them when they were 16 is worn out, so you get em another one? Do you give them a down payment for their first house? Pay for a big wedding?

Personally, I plan on setting aside $10000 per year per kid, inflation adjusted, for my 2 kids plus expenses and insurance for a car for each of em through college. That should cover all tuition at the local state schools and a lot of room and board. Of course, I don't see a problem with kids having minor student loans to repay, or with having a car loan right after college if that is how they want to spend their money. And I don't have a problem with expecting kids to get jobs/internships during the summer and/or school year. I think I'd be doing a disservice to them if I sheltered them from the cold reality that money is extremely important to living a comfortable lifestyle and things cost money, so keep that in mind when making your way through college and choosing a career.

[jeff2006]

"I study war and politics, so my children can study business and commerce, so their children can study literature and the arts" -- Pres. Adams

[TromboneAl]

Right. This isn't an issue of what you can afford. It's an issue of allowing your kids to learn about money.

The car is a good example here. When home she didn't need her own car -- we had two in the family and were able to share.

She bought her own car when she needed it for the painting work. She did the research, along with some help from you and me, did the legwork, and found an old Honda for $2,200. Someone backed into her in a parking lot, she got $1,400 from the insurance company and she didn't repair the damage. Then someone rear ended the car, totaling it, and she'll get $2,200 from the insurance company. So the car turned out to be a profit center. And she learned how to evaluate and buy a used car.

We could have afforded to buy her a brand new Lexus SUV. What would she have learned from that?

[justin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl We could have afforded to buy her a brand new Lexus SUV. What would she have learned from that?

If her classmates are anything like my classmates at the "elite" ( : ) school that I attended, the new Lex SUV is the norm for many kids.

Your daughter is probably experiencing the extravagance that the rich can "afford" and wondering why she hasn't experienced the same (since you are "rich"!). Most of her friends probably drive cars daddy bought for them and have credit cards daddy pays for them. Good luck to those children when they get out of college and eventually strike out on their own...

[youbet]

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Originally Posted by TromboneAl We could have afforded to buy her a brand new Lexus SUV. What would she have learned from that?

You could buy my kid a new Lexus SUV and he would learn that you are a kind and generous person. And, he will have his kids refer to you as "Uncle Al" and they will send you crayola art to hang on your fridge.

[region2]

Talk about Heresy. My youngest, age 20, attends U of Wash in Seattle, 1500 miles from home and he HAS NO CAR. It's a major hassle there. IMHO a car is not a necessity in college. Nice to have one, but you can always bum a ride.

I have followed this discussion with interest. Many great points. I think our kids' college expenses bug us because we were/ are frugal, college expenses are a big black hole, and we have no significant control with how they spend their time and our money. I just think it's important for the young uns to know that at some time, sooner than later, they will be on their own and that they should LBYM to prepare for the day.

[shiny]

T Al is not being a jerk and trying to control Jenny , he's trying to have the results of her learning on her own to deal with money.

[youbet]

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Originally Posted by region2 I just think it's important for the young uns to know that at some time, sooner than later, they will be on their own and that they should LBYM to prepare for the day.

region2, in my heart I want to agree with you. I want to believe that those kids that "had it made" at college suffered when they got into the working world because they hadn't "toughened up" by working at college or at least LBYM at college.

It just doesn't always seem to be true. The playing field isn't level and often "justice" is never established. For example, no one worked harder to get through school than DW. She got up at 3:30 AM, 7 days a week and worked on the breakfast crew at the cafeteria through all four years. During the day, she held misc jobs working in the library, etc. She ran up loans that amounted to her first year's salary which took us several years to pay off. She still managed to graduate fourth in her class.

She's still in touch with two of her college girlfriends, one her roommate for their junior and senior years. They both came from rich families, arrived at school with cars, never had to work and loaned DW clothes she couldn't afford to buy. Guess what? They got good grades, had outstanding careers, one as an editor, the other as an entrepreneur, and got to very early ER due to large inheritances.

DW shrugs it off. But we made sure our son didn't have to set his alarm for 3:30 AM everyday. Nor his children. Sounds like you're doing the same.

[youbet]

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Originally Posted by shiny My point? T Al is not being a jerk and trying to control Jenny like DH's dad, he's trying to have the results of her learning on her own to deal with money.

I understand your point. And, or course, TA would never be a jerk. But we don't really know what TA would do if Jenny called home and said she was changing schools and it was a plan that TA definitely could not agree with.

Now, that will be another interesting thread!!

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by region2 I have followed this discussion with interest. Many great points. I think our kids' college expenses bug us because we were/ are frugal, college expenses are a big black hole, and we have no significant control with how they spend their time and our money.

This open ended obligation without any control is a recipe for bad feelings on both sides, IMO. My college age son likes $400 Gore-Tex jackets. So do I, but I don't buy them and he does. If I were paying his college, I would be either angry at being used, or meddling in his affairs. As it is, I am an interested and hopeful friend and supporter of his aspirations, but on his dime.

I do like the option of paying off his college loans, although I hesitate to do this as Stafford Loans are a very attractive form of debt.

We'll see. If he ever seems even 1/2 as careful about money as I am, maybe I will. I am not holding my breath.

I think that for many, keeping tight control of the purse strings of our age 18+
children is just way to extend our emotional dominion past its natural outdate. My kids could tell me to take a flying F, and there would be no financial repercussions on them.

If I want their affection and respect, I have to earn it as a man, not as a paymaster.

I think we are both proud of this situation.

Ha

[TromboneAl]

Quote:

But we don't really know what TA would do if Jenny called home and said she was changing schools and it was a plan that TA definitely could not agree with. Now, that will be another interesting thread!!

Long as the new school is cheaper. Ha ha.

No, if that happened I'd have no trouble with it. I've been very hands off on her decisions. We gave approximately zero input when it came to chosing a college. If she called and said she wanted to change from Biomedical Engineering (her current major) to basket weaving I'd say go for it.

I guess it's because I'm confident that she'll do fine at whatever she chooses, but I have no desire to influence her decisions about what she does.

[youbet]

OK, now we know! And that's as good a way to handle that hypothesized scenario as anything I could suggest.

[donheff]

Looking back through this thread I see many of us reading things into each others posts that are probably not there. Several people say they don't like the idea of "uncontrolled" financial support for kids in college (expressing fears of lessons missed, spoiling kids with Lexus SUVs and Gore-Tex pants). Yet none of the "pay-the-costs" folks (like me) actually endorsed uncontrolled spending. We just talk about covering the basics - no extravagances. And it apears that most of us see value in the kids working part time and helping out to a degree.

On the other hand, some of us have intimated that the "don't-coddle-em" crowd is abandoning their kids to mountains of debt and a lifetime of resentment. As I skim through the posts, however, it looks like many, if not most, of them believe they should insure their kids are covered for the basics at a state school or equivalent. They don't actually say they would kick them out to make it on their own.

The only significant difference I see is that some of us view providing financial support during college to be a moral obligation (to the extent we can afford it) and others see it as more of a reward to be earned or a choice to be made.

[Nords]

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Originally Posted by Azanon I chuckle at those that thing that military academies are free. You pay out of your ass every single day, every minute of the day.

In the interest of "fair & balanced" from someone who's not exactly a raging fan of the military-academy system himself, I must admit that USNA hacked out enabled me to lay in a foundation of skills and persistence that got me to ER.

I'm not sure that I would have developed the same set of life skills at CMU or Yale or even Penn State. But judging from my visits to high-school classmates at those institutions, I bet I could have consumed almost as much alcohol. I think USNA provided enough structure to thrive and enough freedom to believe that I was succeeding on my own. I can recognize that now, but it was a tremendous boost back then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azanon It is the closest i've come to hell on earth, so far.

Well, Az, I can vouch that if you'd stuck it out through graduation & commissioning then even in the USAF you would have found things closer to hell on earth than the academy. My nephew the Army Ranger can make the same statement about West Point, which is why he finished two tours in Afghanistan before interrupting his tour of Iraq to submit his application to be a plebe. Funny thing, the stress of West Point hasn't bothered his sense of perspective very much. He says the Hudson winters are even warmer than some of the places where he's "camped out".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azanon The only kind of bitterness I allow myself is the kind i take pleasure in. I'm well aware of the negative health effects of stress, and anything stressful I let go of very quickly for that reason. Trust me, revenge can be and often is very pleasurable.

Az, the point of the other poster is that not every thread on this board is about you or about the setbacks & injustice you experienced all those years ago. Al's question was a great way to get constructive feedback to check his sense of doing what's best for his daughter-- instead of being castigated as a mean nasty parent for not being her understanding friend. Your attitude tells us all far more than your words can describe, and it usually inspires us to smartly about-face in the direction opposite your recommendations.

I'll say it again, ol' buddy, you need help and this board ain't doing it. Talk to someone face-to-face with doctor-patient confidentiality.