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Old 11-20-2018, 04:38 PM   #61
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Worst tenants, there were a few! One gal decided to flood the apartment so she could get out of her lease and leave her mess behind. Another tenant was a filthy hoarder, it took me over a week to get it cleaned up, repainted and able to make it habitable. Another tenant I had to evict and left owing me 3k and at the time I was a broke single parent so that stung the most.
Best tenant my son, he even mows the lawn, buys the water filter cartridges and helps when trees fall and have to be cleaned up, and he pays the rent faithfully.
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Old 11-20-2018, 05:02 PM   #62
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My experience has been that the best situation was a direct owner-to-tenant setup. After meeting and getting to know each other, it was smooth sailing from then on (over 15 years).

Worst was a greedy owner who’d hired a property manager who thought they owned the place so dragged their feet on everything and took no interest in much except making sure someone signed the lease (although they were lazy enough to allow the lease to expire and tried to blame that lapse on the tenant). There’s all kinds out there.
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Old 11-20-2018, 05:34 PM   #63
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The one overriding principle of my rental management experience is that there was no predicting who would get behind on the rent. Some of the poorest would always have it on time, and some of the more well-off never would.
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Old 11-20-2018, 06:09 PM   #64
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I remember calling verifiable references and asking 2 questions were they ever late and would you rent to them again.
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Old 11-20-2018, 06:39 PM   #65
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We have rented our beachfront condo twice through a property manager when we relocated to other cities. First time, we had a fabulous tenant who never complained about anything and FedEx’d us the rent every month a couple of days before the beginning of the month. Awesome tenant!

Second tenant was a very entitled and RUDE couple. They were very wealthy and rented our condo because they were having a custom oceanfront home built. The first time something was wrong (crisper pan missing from microwave, hardly a big issue), tenant called us and said if we didn’t have it replaced within 24 hours, he would buy a new one and deduct the cost from his rent. We handled it very quickly (it was accidentally packed by our movers). Several more times, they used similar tactics. They paid the rent just before the grace period expired, never on the due date. Twice it was late. They refused to pay the late fee. Thirty days before their two-year lease was up, we gave them notice that they needed to vacate because we were moving back in. They wanted to extend their lease because their house wasn’t ready. Too bad, so sad. If they had treated us civilly, rather than like we were their servants, we may have agreed to extend, but given their extreme rudeness, we did not extend. We waited the maximum legal time to return their security deposit, and we deducted the late fees they had refused to pay. Jerks! At least there wasn’t any damage to our home.

We also had an “investment property” in Palm Springs. Rented it as a vacation rental through an agency. The very first tenants we had (for a three day weekend rental) caused so much damage that they lost a $2,500 security deposit and that didn’t fully cover repair costs. They did stuff like shake up Champagne bottles and then open them so Champagne spewed all over walls, ceilings, furniture, etc. The management company had to forcibly evict them because they were passed out drunk when they were supposed to check out. We ultimately decided to sell the property and get out of the rental business.

As renters, we’ve never had a bad experience with landlords. We typically rent from VRBO or Airbnb on vacation with no issues.
Crisper pan for a microwave? What even is that? And then they tell you what they're going to do? OMG I think I would have terminated their lease immediately if at all possible. As a landlord you are entitled a reasonable amount of time to make repairs. They are not permitted to do what they suggested. In fact I've offered the "happy clause" to any tenants who even attempt to behave like this. It goes like this, "I want you to be happy. You are clearly not happy with the house so I am offering you a penalty free option to move." Typically nips the problem in the bud! Just rented a new vacancy I had open up to a former tenant who said, "I am so lucky to be back in one of your houses." I suspect most of my tenants feel that way, hence my waiting list. But you make ridiculous demands, think you're in charge, pay late, or give any of my contractors a hard time- we will not be a good fit.
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Old 11-21-2018, 06:14 AM   #66
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I refer to them as the tenants from hell.
We (SIL, DW, Me) bought the three bedroom condominium as an investment. It hadn’t shown well because the owner was a slob and the too many pictures on the walls just made it look like a disaster. New rugs, paint, light fixtures and tons of elbow grease changed all that.

The first tenant moved in with his expecting girlfriend and paid on time but soon she moved out. He gave notice: It took me 2 hours just to clean the refrigerator. I charged his deposit $75 and he didn’t complain. We got the place back to pristine condition.

Then a realtor bought me her cousins- she said she remembered how beautiful our condo was. Theres a science to picking tenants that I hadn’t yet caught on.

They paid late, destroyed walls, doors, rugs and had unreported floods...I got a call one day “Mr. RayinPenn somethings wrong we got a $1200 water bill...” After asking a few questions I discovered a new water meter had been installed. I said just call the water company they will straighten this out.. then he said “yeah and its leaking” i ran over there to find a full 5 gal bucket hanging off the meter water on the floor. I noticed water stains on the ceiling ...well it just got worse and worse. By that time my partners were complaining “Never Again”. When they left she left me a 3 minute vulgar call on my phone.

We redid the place and God smiled and sent me a very nice recent divorcee. She kept the place like a home. Clean, tidy - i never raised the rent because when you get a good tenant you don’t.

Over the years the tenants paid off the mortgage.. when we sold our portion was sufficient to fund my sons college. Was it worth it? Probably but it wasn’t easy. My partners would still say never again.
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Old 11-21-2018, 07:44 AM   #67
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Landlord partnerships are like mixing two different kinds of acid. It can explode and burn a whole lot of people.

Landlording is hard.

Partnering is hard.

I can't imagine mixing both. Glad you and your DW and SIL got out of it alive, RayInPenn.
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Old 11-21-2018, 07:47 AM   #68
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Landlord partnerships are like mixing two different kinds of acid. It can explode and burn a whole lot of people.

Landlording is hard.

Partnering is hard.

I can't imagine mixing both. Glad you and your DW and SIL got out of it alive, RayInPenn.


Thanks Joe..
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Old 11-21-2018, 07:56 AM   #69
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I own 10 rental properties in the Twin Cities. Bought them all at a great time from 2010-2012 at the bottom of the market. I have 8 townhouses & 2 condos - many avoid HOA's but I didn't want to have to deal with outside maintenance and I could just factor the cost into my investment decision.

I bought them with the intent to "create my own pension". Have a predictable stream of income that should keep pace with inflation.

Manage them all myself which is important as an outside property manager wouldn't care as much as I do about screening and avoiding vacancy.

I've really only had 1 poor tenant. Even she ended up paying me all the rent owed. It did cost me some out of pocket even after keeping the security deposit to redo the floors and repaint along with a month's vacancy. Other than that I've had a few late rent payments (with late fee) but nothing serious.

The other bad experience was with 1 of the condo's which is in a 5 unit brownstone. Small HOA and local property manager walked off with $10k of our money so that cost me $2k.

I make sure to treat my tenants well, see to their issues on a timely basis and don't raise rents too much on exiting tenants that renew their 12 mo leases. When they move out I raise rents back to the market rate.

It's been a great time to be a landlord. Rents keep going up and I never have vacancy. If someone leaves I have a new tenant ready to move in the next day. Almost every tenant has left the place move in ready for the next person to get 100% of their deposit back.

I think the key is to do a very thorough job of screening potential tenants on the phone before even scheduling a showing and then as a part of the application process.

Conservatively, the properties clear $80k+/year which covers a big chunk of our retirement needs (11+% return on original all cash investment). It probably takes 1 day/month of my time to manage. In addition, they've all pretty much doubled in value from where I bought them but no intention to sell as the tax hit would be huge.

I'm sure I will have a bad tenant experience at some point. I budget $1000/year for legal expenses that I've never had to use.
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Old 11-21-2018, 08:06 AM   #70
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I'd say you did well, especially having your good partners to help bring the place back to rentable condition each time the tenants trashed it.

Ah, yes, the three-minute curse-filled phone call from bitter female tenant (generally half in the bag, too). Landlording reminds me of a line from the musical "Chess" - the female lead sings "I'm learning things I didn't want to know." After getting rid of rentals, it does take a while to regain one's sense that human beings are basically good.

And yes, we did "screen." And it was a nice townhouse in a nice area. Yet when the depression hit, and all we were getting were people running from foreclosure, we paid a tenant-finding service; and that's how we ended up with the tenants who pushed us out of landlording for good and all. The luck of the draw.

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Originally Posted by rayinpenn View Post
I refer to them as the tenants from hell.
We (SIL, DW, Me) bought the three bedroom condominium as an investment. It hadn’t shown well because the owner was a slob and the too many pictures on the walls just made it look like a disaster. New rugs, paint, light fixtures and tons of elbow grease changed all that.

The first tenant moved in with his expecting girlfriend and paid on time but soon she moved out. He gave notice: It took me 2 hours just to clean the refrigerator. I charged his deposit $75 and he didn’t complain. We got the place back to pristine condition.

Then a realtor bought me her cousins- she said she remembered how beautiful our condo was. Theres a science to picking tenants that I hadn’t yet caught on.

They paid late, destroyed walls, doors, rugs and had unreported floods...I got a call one day “Mr. RayinPenn somethings wrong we got a $1200 water bill...” After asking a few questions I discovered a new water meter had been installed. I said just call the water company they will straighten this out.. then he said “yeah and its leaking” i ran over there to find a full 5 gal bucket hanging off the meter water on the floor. I noticed water stains on the ceiling ...well it just got worse and worse. By that time my partners were complaining “Never Again”. When they left she left me a 3 minute vulgar call on my phone.

We redid the place and God smiled and sent me a very nice recent divorcee. She kept the place like a home. Clean, tidy - i never raised the rent because when you get a good tenant you don’t.

Over the years the tenants paid off the mortgage.. when we sold our portion was sufficient to fund my sons college. Was it worth it? Probably but it wasn’t easy. My partners would still say never again.
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Old 11-21-2018, 09:29 AM   #71
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I'd always go with a professionally managed place, even though private landlords may be cheaper. If you go with a private landlord, you have to judge from impressions gained during an interview. Previous renters rarely leave forwarding addresses, so it may be hard to find any to speak to.

Just as some posters don't understand why other people have bad tenant experiences, I don't understand why some renters put up with evil landlords.

By evil I mean someone who violates the lease, or your civil rights. For example, the MIL violated your 4th Amendment rights by entering the property without proper notification, as stipulated in a standard lease - usually it's 24 hours, and you have the right to ask for a different date and time. The first time it happened, you could have filed a police report and followed up with a lawsuit. You can get a peace order against an owner who invades your rental property.
The 4th Amendment only applies to government intrusion. A quick google search suggests that only about half the states have any laws protecting tenant privacy. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...apter20-8.html According to this chart, which may or may not be accurate, Illinois has no such law. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...tal-29033.html

I have no experience as a landlord -- just as a tenant who has had numerous landlords barge in unannounced.

I'm trying to envision a couple of Chicago police officers filing a report on a tenant's complaint that a landlord was entering their apartment without permission. Especially when the landlord is on the force ...
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:35 AM   #72
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Actually, I'm curious how these intrusions are taking place. Does landlord use his key to get in while tenant is out, or does he walk in when the tenant is home, without asking to come in? Does the landlord give a reason (suspicion of a gas leak, or some other emergency)?

If tenants believe they have no protections against invasion of privacy, then why would anyone rent? What protection would, say, a beautiful 25-year-old have against a landlord who is out to catch him or her in the buff?
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:41 AM   #73
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Actually, I'm curious how these intrusions are taking place. Does landlord use his key to get in while tenant is out, or does he walk in when the tenant is home, without asking to come in? Does the landlord give a reason (suspicion of a gas leak, or some other emergency)?

If tenants believe they have no protections against invasion of privacy, then why would anyone rent? What protection would, say, a beautiful 25-year-old have against a landlord who is out to catch him or her in the buff?
Back in the 1970s. I rented a small apartment in what was a large house that has been segmented. As a result, it has a door that was permanently locked that connected to another apartment. My later to become DW and I were in bed when the door popped open and it was the landlord wanting to use the phone - which he did for about 20 minutes as we hid under the covers. I sure miss those days.
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Old 11-21-2018, 01:09 PM   #74
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Crisper pan for a microwave? What even is that? And then they tell you what they're going to do? OMG I think I would have terminated their lease immediately if at all possible. As a landlord you are entitled a reasonable amount of time to make repairs. They are not permitted to do what they suggested. In fact I've offered the "happy clause" to any tenants who even attempt to behave like this. It goes like this, "I want you to be happy. You are clearly not happy with the house so I am offering you a penalty free option to move." Typically nips the problem in the bud! Just rented a new vacancy I had open up to a former tenant who said, "I am so lucky to be back in one of your houses." I suspect most of my tenants feel that way, hence my waiting list. But you make ridiculous demands, think you're in charge, pay late, or give any of my contractors a hard time- we will not be a good fit.


I should have thought of that! We had never used the crisper pan ourselves but we had kept it in a cabinet and our movers packed it up. Had no idea it would be such an issue!!

I think this couple was so wealthy and powerful in their lives that they weren’t used to being tenants or being in any position where they couldn’t call the shots.

We live in our condo now, but if we ever rent again, I’m going to remember your “happy” clause! Our condo is right on the beach in a very desirable area so it’s pretty easy to rent.
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Old 11-21-2018, 01:37 PM   #75
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Actually, I'm curious how these intrusions are taking place. Does landlord use his key to get in while tenant is out, or does he walk in when the tenant is home, without asking to come in?
The landlord used her key and usually entered while we were away. At one point, we were suspicious someone had been inside because the thermostat had been turned down (a lot) and some loose papers that had been on the kitchen table were on the floor. Later, I was working second shift at my factory job and DW was working days as a school teacher. I awoke hearing footsteps and thought DW had returned home meaning I had overslept. Rushing out to the kitchen in my undies, I walked right into the landlord's MIL which was quite a shock for both of us. From that point on, we put tiny pieces of tape on drawers, closet doors, cabinets, etc., to see if she was opening them, and she was.
Quote:
Does the landlord give a reason (suspicion of a gas leak, or some other emergency)?
She wanted us to keep the thermostat at a very chilly setting in the winter and liked to enter to be sure we were complying. She also insisted, very firmly, that she had a right to "check on things" whenever she pleased and would be continuing to enter when we were away.
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If tenants believe they have no protections against invasion of privacy, then why would anyone rent? What protection would, say, a beautiful 25-year-old have against a landlord who is out to catch him or her in the buff?
Well, we purchased our own home and never rented again. Looking back, perhaps this unsavory landlord was a blessing since we were "city kids" and enjoyed living in our flat in the city and the urban lifestyle. Might have taken us years to get up the gumption to buy and move if the original landlord, a real nice guy and a real pro at the business, had not sold and moved.

Earlier in this thread, I asked for advise on how (hypothetically - I'll likely never rent again) renters can get a fair shake from excessively profit-minded or incompetent landlords who either withhold services/repairs, are late with services/repairs or just act weird. Having read through this thread, it seems like the answer would be to rent in a corp owned large complex. That way, I'd think you'd have a better chance of not having to share tight quarters in a small building with a resident owner who's a bit, shall we say, creepy.
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Old 11-21-2018, 01:44 PM   #76
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Anecdotally, I think most landlords are decent sorts who wouldn't invade your privacy.

The reason I think that is because I rented a great many apartments all over during my younger days. The first thing I always did when moved in was to change the locks (having locksmith skills was very handy). AFAIK, no landlord ever tried to get in while I wasn't there, and nothing was ever said about it. When I moved out, I changed the locks back to the way they had been so the original keys would work again.
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Old 11-21-2018, 02:07 PM   #77
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Anecdotally, I think most landlords are decent sorts who wouldn't invade your privacy.
I've only lived in one flat and only had two landlords, so I'm certainly not trying to generalize my anecdotal experience across the board. But, I do think that just as landlords can have a bad tenant, renters can have bad landlords and need to be diligent in finding a good situation.
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The reason I think that is because I rented a great many apartments all over during my younger days. The first thing I always did when moved in was to change the locks (having locksmith skills was very handy). AFAIK, no landlord ever tried to get in while I wasn't there, and nothing was ever said about it. When I moved out, I changed the locks back to the way they had been so the original keys would work again.
The second, creepy landlord emphasized emphatically that they must have a key and access. For security, I got the landlord's permission to have deadbolt locks installed on both the front and rear doors at my expense. (Did I mention this was a flat in a 4-flat bldg in Chicago?) He OK'd that but gave me a stern lecture that I would have to turn a key over to him (for his MIL) immediately, which I did.

As I emphasized, the original landlord was great. In an urban 4-flat with a resident owner, owner-idiosyncrasies come out in spades. The second guy, and his DW and MIL, just shouldn't have been in the landlording business. Just creepy people.

I'd never rent again unless I could interview some current residents to ensure that the place was creepy owner-free and that the owners responded to normal repair needs promptly and effectively without dramatics.

I'd also assume that I'd never see any security deposit again even if we had 100% met all requirements for a full refund. There is just nothing in it for the landlord to return the deposit unless you take legal action, which many tenants wouldn't bother with. (We didn't.)
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Old 11-21-2018, 02:28 PM   #78
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............I think this couple was so wealthy and powerful in their lives that they weren’t used to being tenants or being in any position where they couldn’t call the shots.........
That's all part of it, isn't it - the power dynamics? We rented an apartment for 6 months in an apartment complex after selling our house and the staff that ran the place really tried to lord it over us that they were in charge and if we didn't jump when they said jump, they'd punish us with petty fees and other forms of harassment.
I dearly hope to never rent again.
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Old 11-21-2018, 02:58 PM   #79
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Anecdotally, I think most landlords are decent sorts who wouldn't invade your privacy.

The reason I think that is because I rented a great many apartments all over during my younger days. The first thing I always did when moved in was to change the locks (having locksmith skills was very handy). AFAIK, no landlord ever tried to get in while I wasn't there, and nothing was ever said about it. When I moved out, I changed the locks back to the way they had been so the original keys would work again.
We have all our locks set with a master key. Tenants are informed that we can enter (Oregon) with 24 hours notice or if we have their permission OR if we need to enter to mitigate damage. Downstairs apartment has water raining from above? We can knock and enter the upstairs unit. Smoke coming from under the door? We can knock and enter. If I run into a lock that a tenant has replaced without giving me a key we are going to have an earnest conversation. Gonna be very peeved if I have to kick down a door.

Many tenants work and it is way more convenient for us both if they give me permission to enter during the day to fix a problem like a faucet leak vs. waiting for them to get home - hint: landlords don't want to work in the evening or on weekends any more than tenants. I tell potential tenants we have to be comfortable with each other and if they aren't comfortable with me having access to their apartment as needed they should live elsewhere. That said, it is the tenant's apartment - I was aghast when I heard my Mom was just going into the rooms she had rented out in her home just because she felt like it.
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Old 11-21-2018, 03:09 PM   #80
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She wanted us to keep the thermostat at a very chilly setting in the winter and liked to enter to be sure we were complying.
Your whole post was great, this part triggered long ago memories.

We rented a half duplex, the landlord is next door. Nice couple but one day we came home and there's a acrylic case over our thermostat that we can't open. Heats turned way down, there was a brief discussion and I smiled and said thanks. One of those blue ice bricks fit right on top of it, instant heat.

The worst was when DW was visiting her parents and the landlord left for a week long class. Suddenly she needs to see me at the back door and talk. Well as she pushes her way in I notice the look. Normal women don't go out of the house in that type of outfit, it's not for outdoor wear. Wanted to know what I was doing? I politely tell her I'm going out with friends for the evening, and need to leave now! She says to stop over when I'm back. I has no idea what to say, told her my friends were going to get me too drunk to drive and I wouldn't be home....

We moved a couple months later. ETA: That was our last place in Kansas, we moved across state line to MO. She scared me.
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