1% = NW 8.3M, inc 380K

[imoldernu]

Measuring the Top 1% by Wealth, Not Income - NYTimes.com

didn't make it.

but then, neither did my friends.

Anyone for the top 10%?

 

[Bestwifeever]

...
but then, neither did my friends.
...

But maybe they are already there and are not telling anyone!

 

[pb4uski]

Darn - came up short again.

 

[unclemick]

I enjoy reading/not experiencing the other end of the stick.

Especially when someone posts the Four Yorkshiremen - which has been done periodically on this forum over the years.

Heh heh heh - Even though time in ER has helped - I sometimes get all warm and smarmy when I remember what a cheap SOB I once was. .

 

[ikubak]

What's eye opening are some of the comments from the readers (frequently the best part of any article)....many of them have a very different point of view than most investing and retirement forums. Check this out:


Any dollar held imposes a burden on society, each and every year. We go to war, in part, to protect the dollar.
---------
Over the past 3 or 4 decades, these policies have reduced the greatest middle-class society in the history of mankind into a bankrupt has-been and global laughing stock.
--------
When some reap what they didn't sow, others -- individuals and the community as a whole -- cannot reap what they did sow.

Do you not see a problem with this?

 

[donheff]

Nope, don't make that 1%. I suspect there are only a few here abouts. Probably quite a few 5%ers.

 

[marko]

So why are "the rich" being defined as individuals making over $200K??

 

[dmpi]

Nope, not me. The number seems high. Grab a random 100 people. Do you think you'll find one with eight million? I don't think so.

 

[bob boag]

Digging into Table 4 in the PDF, it says that (for 2007) the median and mean net worth of the top 10% were $1.89M and $3.98M respectively. For you statisticians does that imply that the 95th percentile were worth $1.89M?

 

[NW-Bound]

One in 100 households has 8M or more? Is it too high? I don't think so. Would the Fed lie?

I guess if I round up all the people around my block here, I bet not one belongs to that top 1%. But if we go to places like Beverly Hills, then the only people who are not on the list would be the chauffeurs and maids of the mansion owners there, whose houses alone may be worth more than $8M.

There was a thread similar to this a couple of months ago. One poster provided a link to a very interesting map showing how the top 1% of each state had or made. Even the top 1% in the less wealthy states have significantly more than the average person in the US.

About inferring the top 5% number from the median and mean net worths, I don't know how one can do that without assuming a certain distribution. I do not know what it looks like. Has anyone seen a graph?

 

[Hamlet]

This is from a survey. What is the likely accuracy of that survey?

I know a few of the top 1% in income. Most of them don't have 8M in assets.

Something seems wrong here.

One in 100 households has 8M or more? Is it too high? I don't think so. Would the Fed lie?

 

[Gumby]

I know many people who are in the top 1% by income. I really wouldn't know with certainty if any of them are in the top 1% by wealth, but I suspect a few are.

 

[NW-Bound]

Could it be that your 1% hide their money?

This is from a survey. What is the likely accuracy of that survey?

I know a few of the top 1% in income. Most of them don't have 8M in assets.

Something seems wrong here.

Or more likely, these are the young 1-percenter and are still accumulating? They are not thinking about ER, are they? How about the older 1% in income? They would have more in assets than the young 1% earners.

But you are right that it is just a survey. Doggone it, I thought the gummint already tracked down everyone's asset and knew exactly where those Kruggerands were hidden. Uncle Sam is not as potent as I thought.

So, you think people in the survey exaggerated their net worth?

 

[FIREd]

I know many people who are in the top 1% by income. I really wouldn't know with certainty if any of them are in the top 1% by wealth, but I suspect a few are.

Same here.

 

[NW-Bound]

OK, here's my gut feeling as to why the $8M threshold of the 1% in assets would not be unreasonable.

We have talked about what the top 1% earners make. I would think that that number would be more reliable. Would the IRS not know all that?

If I compare that 1% income to what I made, and knowing my net worth now, I would say if I had that kind of income, I should be able to amass the $8M, if I did not goof off and ER'ed.

 

[photoguy]

This is from a survey. What is the likely accuracy of that survey?

I know a few of the top 1% in income. Most of them don't have 8M in assets.

Something seems wrong here.

I know there are a couple methods of estimating net worth of the top 1% of households (as opposed to income which is easier because of tax returns). From what I skimmed, the IRS estimate is only about $1.5M whereas the fed reserve survey yields $9M.

See

How Much Money Does It Take To Be In The Top 1% of Wealth and Net Worth in the United States

I haven't gone through the math / original papers so I can't really form an opinion about which is more accurate (less biased) but just based off gut feel the $1.5M sounds more realistic.

 

[FIREd]

If I compare that 1% income to what I made, and knowing my net worth now, I would say if I had that kind of income, I should be able to amass the $8M, if I did not goof off and ER'ed.

Problem is, few people can maintain that level of income over an entire career. For many, you become a one percenter one year because you exercise some stock options, receive a big bonus, realize a one time capital gain, or maybe just sell your business. Next year it's back to being a 99 percenter.

 

[NW-Bound]

I was thinking of surgeons, lawyers, business owners, big shots at megacorps, etc... I would hope their income to be more steady. No?

 

[FIREd]

I am sure a few, select people can pull it off.

 

[Spanky]

I was thinking of surgeons, lawyers, business owners, big shots at megacorps, etc... I would hope their income to be more steady. No?

The CEO of the company for which I work made $28 million last year. Steady income is not necessary to reach $8M.

 

[NW-Bound]

Ay, ay, ay! Now, you are talking about the top group inside the 1%. Crème de la Crème!

I saw an article somewhere saying that the top 10% of that 1%, meaning the 0.1%, really makes the other 0.9% pale.

That's OK. I do not envy anyone, not anymore. I have been thinking that as long as I have my health, I could lose everything but my small motor home, and I would still feel OK. Wife would not like to hear me say that though, even if just hypothetically.

 

[imoldernu]

I know there are a couple methods of estimating net worth of the top 1% of households (as opposed to income which is easier because of tax returns). From what I skimmed, the IRS estimate is only about $1.5M whereas the fed reserve survey yields $9M.

See

How Much Money Does It Take To Be In The Top 1% of Wealth and Net Worth in the United States

I haven't gone through the math / original papers so I can't really form an opinion about which is more accurate (less biased) but just based off gut feel the $1.5M sounds more realistic.

Thanks... good article
Any time we deal with government statistics, there will be questions
The Bureau of Labor Statistics, IMO is the worser of the worst. Impossible to get an "Average", a "Mean", or a "Total" without three asterisks. A bureaucracy of overkill, producing nothing of real value.
Try "consumer price index" for an interesting experience.

Consumer Price Index Summary

See if you can find the number that is used by businesses and individuals, for establishing rents, government benefits, cost of living increases, and the basis for loans etc.

When the class war begins, it will be important to know the numbers.

 

[Danmar]

The multiple of assets toPre tax income seems reasonable for someone fairly late in their career or actually retired. I would doubt someone in their 40's making this kind of money(at least through employment) would have built that level of assets of 25x's? In my case the multiple of assets to pre tax income is a little over 25 if I capitalize my pension and include non earning assets like personal use real estate.

 

[dmpi]

If a guy has 8M, let's assume he got a 2M home. Then he's got 6M to invest which can generate 300K/year (assuming 5% return). Isn't this 300K part of his annually income? That's not jiving with the top 1% income.

 

[Amethyst]

Naturally not, since the rich probably don't mill about randomly. I guess they usually flock with other rich birds like themselves.

Amethyst

Nope, not me. The number seems high. Grab a random 100 people. Do you think you'll find one with eight million? I don't think so.