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10-03-2021, 09:54 AM
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#21
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Northern NJ/ Jersey Shore
Posts: 1,050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GravitySucks
FIDO will be very happy to sell you a MYGA, look under Annuities/deffered-fixed-annuities.
Recent rate for NY based 3 year jumbo 1.45%
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Yes, at that low rate FIDO would be happy to sell you a MYGA. Much better rates buying from an insurer.
__________________
Brian
Happily retired in July 2023!
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10-03-2021, 10:10 AM
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#22
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 8,309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dtail
True it belongs, but probably more similar to the Investment programs that PB4USKI mentioned, rather than CD's due to the credit risk involved vs. typical FDIC insured CD's.
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Not at all similar IMO. MYGA has State Guaranty Association backing and much much better rates compared to corporate note programs. I like corporate note programs for smaller sums and short term access. Corporate notes feature liquidity similar to a MM whereas MYGA have severe early withdrawal penalties. Some allow limited withdrawals, though.
__________________
...with no reasonable expectation for ER, I'm just here auditing the AP class.Retired 8/1/15.
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10-03-2021, 10:33 AM
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#23
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: City
Posts: 10,337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRLLS
I'm not sure how Vanguard handles it, Fidelity will automatically sweep some funds into separate banks keeping each account under 250,000. It might be worth checking with Vanguard.
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One of life's little mysteries for me is why sophisticated investors even care about FDIC insurance.
First, bank failures are incredibly rare. Average is something like seven per year out of 5000, less than 0.2%.
Second, deposits in excess of FDIC limits do not go away; their owners are secured creditors and IIRC the habit of the regulators is to make them good.
But most importantly, bank risks pale in the shadow of the risks investors take every day by buying stocks (no guarantees, ever) and corporate bonds (default rates many times the bank failure rate). Sure, people are concerned about these kinds of risks, but not to the extent they seem to be concerned about having FDIC insurance.
Sure, if it's free take it and maneuver to maximize the amount, but in the scale of investment risks bank failures seem negligible to me.
Thread drift, I suppose. Sorry.
__________________
Ignoramus et ignorabimus
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10-03-2021, 11:34 AM
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#24
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 8,309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldShooter
Second, deposits in excess of FDIC limits do not go away; their owners are secured creditors and IIRC the habit of the regulators is to make them good.
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FDIC insurance is very important for a tiny allocation of my assets (nowhere near the limits). I generally agree with your point but I was not aware of any security for my bank deposits. I’m curious about that.
__________________
...with no reasonable expectation for ER, I'm just here auditing the AP class.Retired 8/1/15.
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10-03-2021, 12:31 PM
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#25
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: City
Posts: 10,337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz4cash
FDIC insurance is very important for a tiny allocation of my assets (nowhere near the limits). I generally agree with your point but I was not aware of any security for my bank deposits. I’m curious about that.
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IANAL but you are definitely a creditor in a bankruptcy and I believe you are secured, not unsecured. Don't rely on my belief though; there are facts out there somewhere. The point is that the uninsured balance does not vaporize. There is the possibility of getting some or all of it back.
__________________
Ignoramus et ignorabimus
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10-03-2021, 01:14 PM
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#26
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Chicago West Burbs
Posts: 2,998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldShooter
One of life's little mysteries for me is why sophisticated investors even care about FDIC insurance.
First, bank failures are incredibly rare. Average is something like seven per year out of 5000, less than 0.2%.
Second, deposits in excess of FDIC limits do not go away; their owners are secured creditors and IIRC the habit of the regulators is to make them good.
But most importantly, bank risks pale in the shadow of the risks investors take every day by buying stocks (no guarantees, ever) and corporate bonds (default rates many times the bank failure rate). Sure, people are concerned about these kinds of risks, but not to the extent they seem to be concerned about having FDIC insurance.
Sure, if it's free take it and maneuver to maximize the amount, but in the scale of investment risks bank failures seem negligible to me.
Thread drift, I suppose. Sorry.
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OP was concerned about the FDIC limits of MM funds after cashing out funds in an IRA. I was just mentioning that it shouldn't be a concern if Vanguard does the same as Fidelity.
According to Bankrate.com there have been "only" 511 bank failures since 2009. I agree that bank failures where customers actually lost any of their money may be few and far between if any. Saying that doesn't help the one who may be concerned about it.
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10-03-2021, 01:51 PM
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#27
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRLLS
OP was concerned about the FDIC limits of MM funds after cashing out funds in an IRA. I was just mentioning that it shouldn't be a concern if Vanguard does the same as Fidelity.
According to Bankrate.com there have been "only" 511 bank failures since 2009. I agree that bank failures where customers actually lost any of their money may be few and far between if any. Saying that doesn't help the one who may be concerned about it.
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I remember the takeovers in 2008-2009. I was plenty worried back then. Worried enough to withdraw cash from one bank and deposit it in the bank of a contractor that I needed to pay. Going to stick to FDIC insured banks and treasury-only money market accounts at Fido.
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10-03-2021, 03:21 PM
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#28
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,166
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FDIC or NCUA insurance can be increased beyond $250K by adding beneficiaries to a POD account. It's $250K per beneficiary. So, add two and insurance increases to $500K ($250K per named beneficiary - at that point your coverage is negated by the benes).
Or, add your spouse and that person also gets $250K. The two of you (if you're married) can easily get $500K per institution that way.
That said, VMFXX and other Money Market funds don't have FDIC OR NCUA insurance.
You can google FDIC or NCUA insurance calculators and play around with the options..
It's pretty easy to insure > $1M or more if you try hard in a traditional account that's eligible for FDIC or NCUA insurance..
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10-03-2021, 04:26 PM
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#29
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldShooter
One of life's little mysteries for me is why sophisticated investors even care about FDIC insurance.
First, bank failures are incredibly rare. Average is something like seven per year out of 5000, less than 0.2%.
Second, deposits in excess of FDIC limits do not go away; their owners are secured creditors and IIRC the habit of the regulators is to make them good.
But most importantly, bank risks pale in the shadow of the risks investors take every day by buying stocks (no guarantees, ever) and corporate bonds (default rates many times the bank failure rate). Sure, people are concerned about these kinds of risks, but not to the extent they seem to be concerned about having FDIC insurance.
Sure, if it's free take it and maneuver to maximize the amount, but in the scale of investment risks bank failures seem negligible to me.
Thread drift, I suppose. Sorry.
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So if I have an NCUA insured 3% CD that allows additional deposits then I should feel fine loading it up beyond the $250k NCUA limit? I'll admit that it has crossed my mind.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
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10-03-2021, 05:02 PM
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#30
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: City
Posts: 10,337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski
So if I have an NCUA insured 3% CD that allows additional deposits then I should feel fine loading it up beyond the $250k NCUA limit? I'll admit that it has crossed my mind.
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Well, I can't say how you should feel about it, but it wouldn't bother me a bit.
(Edit: To be clear, I have not thought much about credit unions and never used one, but assuming the failure rates and pathologies are similar to those of larger commercial banks, I would be comfortable.)
The popular behavioral psychology books like I enjoy reading are rife with examples where we humans make huge errors in evaluating the probability of negative events. We fear terrorism but do not fear driving in a car. We buy accidental death and dismemberment insurance, insuring against fairly low probably but horrific and dramatic events, instead of buying broad coverage life insurance. We fear commercial airplane crashes more than highway driving, which is far more dangerous. I just read an estimate that about 2100 lives were lost because 9/11 scared people out of commercial airplanes and onto the highways. I think we comfortably take market risks that are far, far larger than the minuscule risk I see with deposits in large commercial banks. However, YPMV (Your perception may vary.)
__________________
Ignoramus et ignorabimus
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10-03-2021, 06:24 PM
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#31
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24601NoMore
FDIC or NCUA insurance can be increased beyond $250K by adding beneficiaries to a POD account. It's $250K per beneficiary. So, add two and insurance increases to $500K ($250K per named beneficiary - at that point your coverage is negated by the benes)...
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But not all accounts:
"While some self-directed retirement Accounts, like IRAs, permit the owner to name one or more beneficiaries, the existence of beneficiaries does not increase the available insurance coverage."
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
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10-03-2021, 07:33 PM
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#32
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Independence
Posts: 7,281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski
So if I have an NCUA insured 3% CD that allows additional deposits then I should feel fine loading it up beyond the $250k NCUA limit? I'll admit that it has crossed my mind.
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I've four beneficiaries at GTE - not that we have that much there - but haven't settled whether NCUA goes to a million or stops at $750. Seems like I get information supporting both theories.
__________________
"Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible." Dalai Lama
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10-03-2021, 08:17 PM
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#33
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,166
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Here's a calculator from the NCUA that allows you to explore different scenarios with POD, single v. joint owners, beneficiaries, etc.
https://www.mycreditunion.gov/insurance-estimator
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10-03-2021, 09:39 PM
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#34
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Independence
Posts: 7,281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24601NoMore
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Thanks. There are wrinkles though, for instance, per
https://www.membersadvantagecu.com/R...hare-Insurance
"The funds in a Revocable Trust Account, also known as a "payable on death" account (POD), is paid to named beneficiaries in the event of the owner's death. While living, the owner has use of the funds and can revoke the trust (remove or change beneficiaries). If the beneficiaries of a Revocable Trust Account are a spouse, child, grandchild, parent, or sibling of the owner, the funds in the account are separately insured to $250,000 per beneficiary, (in addition to any insurance on valid individual and joint accounts). To qualify for coverage under NCUA regulations, there are several conditions that must be met:
Beneficiaries must be a qualifying family member...."
We have four beneficiaries - but with a spouse, a sister, a SIL and a friend as beneficiaries it looks like we are only insured to $500k.
__________________
"Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible." Dalai Lama
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10-03-2021, 11:38 PM
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#35
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Spending the Kids Inheritance and living in Chicago
Posts: 17,012
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I had a CD about 30 years ago, the bank failed. The gov't paid me the principle and interest about 90 days later.
I was really surprised to get the interest.
Only time I felt my money was in danger from a bank.
OP - You may have "won the game" right now at 3% , but the future can have surprises like high inflation and low interest rates. Cutting your buying power by many percentages every year.
I will keep money in stocks all my life, by the end it might be just 10% but can't really see going to zero stocks.
__________________
Fortune favors the prepared mind. ... Louis Pasteur
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10-04-2021, 01:58 AM
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#36
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Way up North
Posts: 561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunset
OP - You may have "won the game" right now at 3% , but the future can have surprises like high inflation and low interest rates. Cutting your buying power by many percentages every year.
I will keep money in stocks all my life, by the end it might be just 10% but can't really see going to zero stocks.
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+1
I would spend 30 minutes googling "the efficient frontier". Although it might not seem so at first thought, having all cash, no stocks is not the safest "won the game" position. There are risks beyond the nominal dollar balance in your accounts to consider. A minimal 15%-20% allocation to stocks is actually quite a bit "safer" than all cash.
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10-04-2021, 05:09 AM
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#37
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bada bing
+1
I would spend 30 minutes googling "the efficient frontier". Although it might not seem so at first thought, having all cash, no stocks is not the safest "won the game" position. There are risks beyond the nominal dollar balance in your accounts to consider. A minimal 15%-20% allocation to stocks is actually quite a bit "safer" than all cash.
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OP Here
I've read Bernstien, swedroe and a bunch of others. Unfortunately I also follow perma bear Hussman. I think he is brilliant and makes a lot of sense..
I retired at 42 am now 57 and NW is about 30% more...I can see SS and retirement now and just don't like what the market fundamentals look like now.
I will get back into Wellesley and a Target retirement fund or two eventually...
Will look at MYGA for a portion.
Thanks to everyone for the input.
Wally
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10-04-2021, 05:14 AM
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#38
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calmloki
I've four beneficiaries at GTE - not that we have that much there - but haven't settled whether NCUA goes to a million or stops at $750. Seems like I get information supporting both theories.
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My 3% add-on CD is in an IRA, so adding a beneficiary doesn't increase the amount insured as I understand it.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
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10-04-2021, 02:52 PM
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#39
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 8,309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunset
I had a CD about 30 years ago, the bank failed. The gov't paid me the principle and interest about 90 days later.
I was really surprised to get the interest.
Only time I felt my money was in danger from a bank.
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Very valuable info ! Always wondered about the timing of FDIC restitution. 90 days could be ruinous if you had everything in one bank. It’s not surprising, though. I suspect it could take much longer under extenuating circumstances (exceed FDIC/NCUA limit, alternative coverage-SIPC, SGA, etc). Need to diversify duly noted.
__________________
...with no reasonable expectation for ER, I'm just here auditing the AP class.Retired 8/1/15.
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10-05-2021, 10:37 PM
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#40
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Dryer sheet aficionado
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wallygator69
OP Here
I've read Bernstien, swedroe and a bunch of others. Unfortunately I also follow perma bear Hussman. I think he is brilliant and makes a lot of sense..
I retired at 42 am now 57 and NW is about 30% more...I can see SS and retirement now and just don't like what the market fundamentals look like now.
Wally
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You should do what makes you sleep at night but in regards to following Hussman….
On Morningstar I plugged in Hussmans Strategic Growth (ill-named) Fund vs Vanguards Total Stock Market Index (VTSAX) over the past 10 years.
Investing 100k in Hussmans Fund ten years ago would have resulted in a current balance of $53,210 vs $462,600 with the total stock market! Just staggering underperformance.
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