401ks and IRAs are they enough?

Just to be clear: What we are saying is that people, in general, are not capable of taking care of their financial lives. The electorate (composed of those who fail and those who do not) has decided that those who fail should be taken care of by those who are successful (or at least those who have not yet failed). So, we all have an interest in assuring no one fails, even if this results in reducing the chances for others to succeed (by confiscating their money at higher rates, forcing them into approved "safe" investments with lower yields, etc). This may all be a good thing, I just want to strip off the bark and see what we are talking about.

Social Security and welfare programs can perform a valuable function. By providing a minimum stipend that allows the poorest to keep body and soul together, they reduce the motivation for rioting, mob action and other socially/economically disruptive events. Taxpayer-funded retirement benefits above the subsistence level don't help accomplish this goal, and they reduce the vital link between work and reward.

I agree with what (I think) Sam is saying here. We already have one gov't mandated retirement income program. It provides an income floor for everyone. There is no reason to go any further. Whenever we give a tax incentive to DB pensions, 401k's, IRAs, etc. (or start talking about mandatory savings programs) we set ourselves up for more gov't intervention in the name of protecting us from our own foolishness. This involves trade-offs that aren't attractive to me.

I'd say that all the attempts at revising our retirement system are chasing the same rainbow. We want to work for 40 years then spend 25 years retired with an income close to our income when we were working. But we aren't willing to part with enough of our working income to make the numbers work. So we are constantly looking for the pot of gold.
 
However, if by "private" you just mean "non-governmental and non-employer", I think that might work, and be a way out of the impasse. Some of the ideas proposed toward the end of the article are interesting. I also wonder if it would be possible to set up cooperative, defined-benefit pension funds through various organizations that people affiliate with, such as their church, labor union, service club, alumni association or similar, or through credit unions. I think at least some insurance companies originated as mutual assistance societies of various sorts...why not pension funds?

These cooperative pension funds could be professionally managed, as corporate or governmental defined-benefit pension plans are now, and offer the same type of benefits for the lifespan of the employee, with options such as a survivor benefit for spouses, possibility of getting a lump sum payment etc.

As often happens, this type of thing has been available in the past. Most life insurers started as mutual companies or fraternal benefit societies. They offered retirement annuities that required you to pay a fixed, annual premium, and guaranteed a fixed monthly benefit at retirement age. They had options for survivor benefits and different retirement ages. They did not index benefits for inflation, and hence these products faded away when inflation became a fact of life.

I'm not enough of an economic analyst to know whether it would be feasible to allow employees to redirect the social security tax they now pay into one of these funds, or to split it between SS and a cooperative pension plan.

Unfortunately, SS benefits payable over the next 17 years are approximately equal to the projected taxes. So if we want to "redirect the social security tax" we need to reduce benefits to current and soon-to-be retirees or come up with some other source of funding.
 
Unfortunately, SS benefits payable over the next 17 years are approximately equal to the projected taxes.
Perversely, if this economy and the state of many 401K plans leaves many Boomers in the work force longer than they planned, this might not be *as* bad as planned.

Though at some point in the future, if the markets "fix" enough defined-contribution retirements, there could be a sudden exodus. Same could be true if major health insurance changes take place. I suspect that a government program to sever employment from health insurance took effect, a LOT of 50-somethings and early 60-somethings would be looking to bail, as I'm sure more than a few are only working for the health insurance...
 
I can't vouch for her.

But I can say with certainty that the 401k program is lacking in two obvious ways.


  1. It is not an adequate replacement for a professionally managed pension (looking at just the company contribution... if they do).
  2. The money I contribute is saddled with extra fees and funds that do not beat the indexes (hardly ever). I could do better on my own. I am sure others have the same problem
Then the nature of the thing having built-in fragmentation (trying to manage money in multiple 401k/IRA accounts.

What makes you think the professionals managing a pension will do better than the professionals managing a mutual fund? Does one group have a different knowledge set or different goal (or different set of rules) which suggest they have an advantage?

Your 401k is giving you a tax break, and I bet even with the fees the tax break and match still trumps the fees.

I am on 401k #4, and have been working for 11 years (2009 will be 12).
401k #1 was T Rowe Price
401k #2 was Vanguard with a fee wrapper- still low
401k #3 was Vanguard without fee wrapper
401k #4 are institutional funds with ERs lower than most funds (managed large cap fund is .29%, managed small cap .63%, managed foreign .45%, emerging markkets .75%).

My wife is on 401k #3 and her funds are good. I can piece together an asset allocation of
45% large cap
15% mid cap
15% small cap
15% foreign large cap
10% foreign small cap/emerging markets

in each, with maybe one or two asset classes missing (for example if mid cap is missing, I can bump small cap up to 30%, or if emerging markets is missing I can bump foreign large cap to 25%).

Just because a 401k does not give the specific funds with the lowest expense ratios on the planet does not make the 401k bad. Expense ratios are one of three direct variables most people control. Of the 3 variables (asset allocation, savings % and expense ratio), expense ratio has the least significant impact on overall return.

Turning retirement planning over to government is bad- look what they did with the SS surpluss.
Privatizing SS is equally bad- look at what happened when other countries did this (their markets collapsed).

The bext solution is to lower the SS tax from 6.2% by .2% every 5 years, while also raising the minimum retirement age 3 years each time. What this will do is eventually push SS payments to retirees to around age 75 or 80. This will keep the program solvent and index payments based on increasing life expectancies without reducing benefits. It will also force anyone wanting to have a long retirement to do as most on this board do, which is increase the savings rate one contributes to retirement.
 
What makes you think the professionals managing a pension will do better than the professionals managing a mutual fund? Does one group have a different knowledge set or different goal (or different set of rules) which suggest they have an advantage?

It's not a given. But even so, it's a question of who bears the risk.

If I invest my 401K prudently for my age -- even if I make reasonable and age-appropriate asset allocations and keep them over time -- if the market sucks, I bear all the risk and my retirement can be blown up if the 401K underperforms reasonable long-term expectations because of bad market conditions.

In a pension plan, the participant bears relatively little risk in most cases. Much of the risk is shifted to the company (or worse, the taxpayers) if there is a chronic shortfall caused by a terrible market. They'll (most likely) get what was promised to them or close to it.

Believe me -- I would MUCH rather have another deep-pocketed entity bear the risk than me. But many of us don't have that luxury.
 
It's not a given. But even so, it's a question of who bears the risk.

If I invest my 401K prudently for my age -- even if I make reasonable and age-appropriate asset allocations and keep them over time -- if the market sucks, I bear all the risk and my retirement can be blown up if the 401K underperforms reasonable long-term expectations because of bad market conditions.

In a pension plan, the participant bears relatively little risk in most cases. Much of the risk is shifted to the company (or worse, the taxpayers) if there is a chronic shortfall caused by a terrible market. They'll (most likely) get what was promised to them or close to it.

Believe me -- I would MUCH rather have another deep-pocketed entity bear the risk than me. But many of us don't have that luxury.

AGREED. On all points except the red one.

But the COST of the risk you transfer is
a) more restrictions on when money is accessible (age or years of service)
b) reduced or controlled benefit (meaning you cannot take a large payout from pension the first year of retirement to travel the world like you could from a 401k)
c) the pension is subject to corruption by others (Pension could be underfunded, have bad leadership or similar), the 401k is subject to the fund you invest in and yourself.
IMO because a fund and the company which manages the fund has a reputation riding on their actions, there is more accountability with Vanguard than there is in a GM, Xerox or other megacorp pension.

But each individual needs to assess that risk for themselves.
 
AGREED. On all points except the red one.

If pension funds made guarantees based on a fairly sober (and realistic) long-term rate of return, I would feel differently. But many of them are making pension promises based on returns of north of 8%.

If I could get someone to manage my 401K with a virtually guaranteed 8% with little to no risk for me (because another party bears almost all of the risk), you bet your boots I'd take it.

If they offered something more realistic like 5-6%, then I'd reconsider that. But based on the prevailing assumed ROIs pension participants are being promised, yeah -- in a nanosecond I'd take an almost sure-thing 8%.
 
...
In a pension plan, the participant bears relatively little risk in most cases. Much of the risk is shifted to the company (or worse, the taxpayers) if there is a chronic shortfall caused by a terrible market. They'll (most likely) get what was promised to them or close to it.

Believe me -- I would MUCH rather have another deep-pocketed entity bear the risk than me. But many of us don't have that luxury.

Can a government be too big to fail? After the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Eastern block, their retirees were left sucking air... I am not saying we are anywhere near that, but one should be aware that there is never a free lunch.

The bext solution is to lower the SS tax from 6.2% by .2% every 5 years, while also raising the minimum retirement age 3 years each time. What this will do is eventually push SS payments to retirees to around age 75 or 80. This will keep the program solvent and index payments based on increasing life expectancies without reducing benefits. It will also force anyone wanting to have a long retirement to do as most on this board do, which is increase the savings rate one contributes to retirement.

Recently, I read that China also abrogated the promise to its senior citizens. Hence, the Chinese now have the savings rate of 45%, the highest in the world. They make the Japanese look like spendthrifts. Their government has to tell them it's OK to consume more.

Still, a problem remains. If everybody saves, we do not automatically find ourselves in paradise. There have to be some workers, someone who produces to support the retirees living off their investments. So, I will stop badmouthing the "spendthrifts". They make my early retirement possible.
 
Originally Posted by jIMOh
The bext solution is to lower the SS tax from 6.2% by .2% every 5 years, while also raising the minimum retirement age 3 years each time. What this will do is eventually push SS payments to retirees to around age 75 or 80. This will keep the program solvent and index payments based on increasing life expectancies without reducing benefits. It will also force anyone wanting to have a long retirement to do as most on this board do, which is increase the savings rate one contributes to retirement.



Recently, I read that China also abrogated the promise to its senior citizens. Hence, the Chinese now have the savings rate of 45%, the highest in the world. They make the Japanese look like spendthrifts. Their government has to tell them it's OK to consume more.

Still, a problem remains. If everybody saves, we do not automatically find ourselves in paradise. There have to be some workers, someone who produces to support the retirees living off their investments. So, I will stop badmouthing the "spendthrifts". They make my early retirement possible.

45% savings rate is too high. That is not what I was suggesting is needed (it might become part of the law of unintended consequences).

If every American put aside 10% of gross pay into a retirement plan, they would be set to retire after working close to 45 years (age 25-70). Basic compounding would take over around year 25 or year 30 of working (meaning the gains of the portfolio would be 10X larger than the 10% contribution).
 
45% savings rate is too high. That is not what I was suggesting is needed (it might become part of the law of unintended consequences).

I wouldn't want to live such an ascetic life, would you? :p

About savings, it only makes sense if society "knows" how to invest it wisely. For example, a country cannot stockpile its savings in gold and hope to finance its retirees later with that gold. What works for an individual might not work for society. I am not an economist, so do not know how the US should invest our savings as a nation. But I think putting it in McMansions that require more resources for maintaining will not cut it. But then, what do I know?
 
(snip) I'm not enough of an economic analyst to know whether it would be feasible to allow employees to redirect the social security tax they now pay into one of these funds, or to split it between SS and a cooperative pension plan. (snip)
Unfortunately, SS benefits payable over the next 17 years are approximately equal to the projected taxes. So if we want to "redirect the social security tax" we need to reduce benefits to current and soon-to-be retirees or come up with some other source of funding.

I should have said, but didn't, that with such an alternatative pension plan, my Social Security benefit should be reduced proportionate to how much of my Social Security tax I redirect. If I pay full SS tax I get full SS benefit; if I redirect half the tax I get 50% of the payment, etc.
 
For most? Yes, Keep them out of Wall Street

20/20 Hindsight for Babyboomers..?

> Prior to 1995, most of us (Babyboomers) didn't have PC's , let alone know much about Financial Websites
> And many Didn't even WANT a PC !
> We were Sheep.. led by our employers to Put our $ into their #401k's that had Load Funds and Excessive Fee's ...and who knows, Kick backs even to the Employer..in some form or another..
> Obama's and the Dems Idea for Converting #401/#403 plans Into SS would have been the best.. Since most would be getting at least 50% more SS in return..( $30+k vs $20k) now...

> For Our Kids and grandkids? Eventhough they have Alot better PC Experience and knowledge? Their still is way too much Influence by WALL STREET hyping and conning them to Invest in Stocks to get Big gains!
> And maybe Covnerting their #401k/#403's into SS is A good Idea for most of them too...
> And With States & Cities /State & City employees Pension plans Devistating their Budgets? This Conversion could be A Solution as well...

of course, WALL STREET and Insurance Co.'s will fight this to the Death.. and understandably so.. but none the less..

Putting a Couple of Thousand a Yr in my #401k and IRA gave me Very Little in relation to the Whole Picture, come retirement time..Seeing as only made abuot $30k yr in my last 10 yrs and less earlier..

If i hadn't listened to my Dad and Got a 15 yr Mort. and paid it off and just let that House Accumilate in ave 8% APY for the next 20 yrs? I'd be alot Poorer for my retirement today..( Got over $500k on the house when Sold and downsized) and had over $400 k extra + My Retirement Place.. to boost my Retirement savings.. by 300%..

I stressed to my kids to (a) Get a Home and 15 yr mort and (b) invest in nothing more than a 50/50 Bal. Portfolio..

Keep upgrading into a Bigger Home as you can afford..just have it paid for 5-10 yrs before you want to retire and then Get a retirement place, rent it out and fix it up the last couple of yrs before you move into it..

This Forced them To Have to save more and Live on less...ie: Live with-in their means...

Of course they are all 'College Kids' and make 3-4x as much as I ever did, but it's all Relative.. They all have $500k-$1 Mill. Homes, 15 yr mort and doing just fine.. In 20 -30 yrs from now? Those Places will be worth more than enough for them to Sell and retire comfortably ...

and it has and is paying for for them now...and are alot happier they did..
 
Not over react?

Well, maybe.. but If you had a Balanced Portfolio in all equities during the last Bear market? you would have been going into 03' being down over 16%

a 70/30 = Dwn -3%
a 60/40 = + 4%
and a 50/50 = +8%

Worse 08' market in 70+ yrs? and doubtfull won;t happen again?

Maybe, but Me thinks with all the Newer methods for "playing and Manipulating" the market now, btwn Hedge Funds, Shorting/Inverse Funds and alot smarter ,but devious people having access to High Credit/margins?

Their will be More 08' markets in the decades ahead, not less..

This 08'market has a Silver Lining.. A Reality Check if you will..
for most Investors to reduce their Expecations and Be alot more Conservative and inturn, it will force them to have to save more to achieve their Goals ...

Now Businesses and retialers Won't like it, but the fact remains..If we cannot or will not Save More? Then Our Gov't has to force us to do this, like they do with other Countries and their retirement plans.

And give us the Option to Opt out is not an option either.. If it is? Then those who decide to Opt out? Suffer the Consequences.. including being homeless and Not be bailed out either..Once their kids see their parents Living in Poverty, they will learn, like our parents did in the Depression days...

To save alot more and Live within one's means..

especailly if your son has to have his Mother-In-Law live with them...

;)
 
If I pay full SS tax I get full SS benefit; if I redirect half the tax I get 50% of the payment, etc.

SS is a progressive tax. Right now, if you pay 50% into it, you actually get more than 50% out, compared to someone who pays 100%.

You can go to ssa.gov to use their online calculator, or better yet a detailed calculator that you download and install on your PC. I believe the latter is the same that SSA employees or agents use to compute your actual benefits. Have fun.

Choose A Benefit Calculator
 
SS is a progressive tax. Right now, if you pay 50% into it, you actually get more than 50% out, compared to someone who pays 100%.
Just to clarify: the SS tax itself isn't progressive (everybody pays the same rate, up to the income cap). The benefits are highly progressive. For lower income workers, SS is a great deal--they will withdraw, on average, far more money than they put in. Higher income individuals get a far worse deal--they often average a payback similar to having earned less than 1% on their "contributions."

Example (from the SS calculator here). An individual retiring this year at age 66 who earned $15K per year for the last 25 years would get a check of $819 per month. An individual of the same age who retires this year and earned $60K per year for 25 years would get a SS check of $1803. The second individual paid 4 times as much in SS taxes, yet his check is only 2.2 times as large.

SS is a double-axis wealth transfer: from the young to the old, and from the middle-class and wealthy to the poor.
 
I should have said, but didn't, that with such an alternatative pension plan, my Social Security benefit should be reduced proportionate to how much of my Social Security tax I redirect. If I pay full SS tax I get full SS benefit; if I redirect half the tax I get 50% of the payment, etc.

My point was that the decreased revenue to SS happens right away, your reduced benefit happens sometime in the future. If you are 17 or more years from retirement, your willingness to accept a reduced benefit has no impact on the cash benefits that will be paid for the next 17 years, but your "re-directed taxes" need to be made up by cutting benefits to current or soon-to-be retirees, or by raising some other tax, or by more borrowing from China (or whomever).
 
Still, a problem remains. If everybody saves, we do not automatically find ourselves in paradise. There have to be some workers, someone who produces to support the retirees living off their investments. So, I will stop badmouthing the "spendthrifts". They make my early retirement possible.

Exactly. This is the core problem with all retirement policies. What works for one individual doesn't necessarily work for an entire society.

I can get a good return on my investments precisely because a lot of other people aren't saving. If we all try to save a lot, we'll discover that when we're retired there aren't enough workers to produce all the things we thought we were going to buy with our accumulated savings.
 
I have always thought of SS as Insurance.

As life insurance goes... you do not want to draw the best cost/benefit ratio because that means you die after making you first premium payment (that would be the best cost/benefit possible I think)

With SS if you are getting the best cost/benefit then that means your poor --

My goal is to prepare as best as possible so that SS is as small a % of my retirement income as possible.

I do not mind paying my share so if my plans fall flat I will have a baseline income to work with in retirement.
 
I have always thought of SS as Insurance.

As life insurance goes... you do not want to draw the best cost/benefit ratio because that means you die after making you first premium payment (that would be the best cost/benefit possible I think)

With SS if you are getting the best cost/benefit then that means your poor --

My goal is to prepare as best as possible so that SS is as small a % of my retirement income as possible.

I do not mind paying my share so if my plans fall flat I will have a baseline income to work with in retirement.

That is not a bad way to view SS.

But I just want the population to be educated to think the same way, meaning people must have IRA, 401k, after tax savings, etc... in addition to SS.

Samclem, in a post somewhere, conveyed the same idea. He also stated as to expanding SS beyond the bare necessities would not be a good idea.

I am sure there are politicians who want the population to rely totally on the guvmint, and to give them total control. That bothers me to no end. And my libertarian friends keep telling me how the public has been "dumbed down".
 
SS is a progressive tax. Right now, if you pay 50% into it, you actually get more than 50% out, compared to someone who pays 100%. (snip)
I'm not doing very well explaining myself. I'm trying to say, my proposal for these hypothetical cooperative pension plans would be that if I redirected half of my SS tax (over my entire career) into a cooperative plan, I'd receive 50% of the SS benefit that I would have received had I paid full SS tax into the SS system, and 50% of the cooperative pension benefit I would have gotten if I had redirected all of my SS to that plan. My idea of these cooperative plans is that they would be a way to reduce one's vulnerability to a failure of either system, not a way to get more money overall (unless you contribute amounts over and above the total SS tax that would have been due).

If such a plan ever did come into being, there would probably be some people who switch from 100% SS to 100% cooperative pension or vice versa during their career, or split other than 50/50. That would have to be taken into account too in calculating their benefit from each system. I daresay it would be quite a complicated formula, but that's why there are online benefit calculators, right?
 
My point was that the decreased revenue to SS happens right away, your reduced benefit happens sometime in the future. If you are 17 or more years from retirement, your willingness to accept a reduced benefit has no impact on the cash benefits that will be paid for the next 17 years, but your "re-directed taxes" need to be made up by cutting benefits to current or soon-to-be retirees, or by raising some other tax, or by more borrowing from China (or whomever).

That's a problem. I wonder if it would be possible to phase in such a program, by (for example), only opening it to people who are 17 or more years out from retirement, or at least they have 17 years to go before SS eligibility? Many people in that age bracket (and younger) don't expect to get SS anyway. If they all jumped ship into cooperative plans, would SS go bankrupt immediately, leaving all of us baby boomers selling pencils on the streetcorner?

Like I said, I'm not an economic analyst, but ISTM if that were the way the country decided to go, there would be some way to do it without causing a crash & burn of the SS system. Maybe phase-in would have to be even more gradual, with only those workers just starting out now eligible to split their SS tax, or by delaying SS eligibility for people who elect to split their SS tax at the beginning of the system.

It's just an idea, and unlike the other plan that's floating around, and has been discussed on a couple of threads here (it would end tax deferral on 401ks and substitute a mandatory 5% savings with gov't match for low income workers) it's voluntary, and it would allow those who wish to retire earlier than SS "early retirement" age to do so by contributions over & above the SS tax amount.
 
If such a plan ever did come into being, there would probably be some people who switch from 100% SS to 100% cooperative pension or vice versa during their career, or split other than 50/50. That would have to be taken into account too in calculating their benefit from each system. I daresay it would be quite a complicated formula, but that's why there are online benefit calculators, right?

Here's one rub: We, as a society, will not allow anyone to starve just because they cannot/will not provide for themselves. So, if an individual decides to take all his SS money and convert it to the cooperative pension, then that group of pension-fund managers puts all the money into "Styrofoam Lawn Ornament Company, Ltd" and loses everything, who is left holding the bag? You and me--we'll be providing welfare, food stamps, etc for the rest of his life. So, if this idea you've proposed is implemented, I'd strongly urge that there be a floor set--that no one can be allowed to put at risk the funds needed to keep their heads above water (because, from a practical standpoint, they aren't gambling with their money below that level, they are gambling with mine). The result would be pretty much what we have now: A small govt-guaranteed SS annuity to assure folks need no/very little other public assistance, and the individual market-based system (IRAs, 401(k)s,) that people can use to lift themselves above this level. If they want more income security (with a near gaurantee of lower overal return), they can buy a private annuity with this private money.
 
Here's one rub: We, as a society, will not allow anyone to starve just because they cannot/will not provide for themselves. So, if an individual decides to take all his SS money and convert it to the cooperative pension, then that group of pension-fund managers puts all the money into "Styrofoam Lawn Ornament Company, Ltd" and loses everything, who is left holding the bag? You and me--we'll be providing welfare, food stamps, etc for the rest of his life. So, if this idea you've proposed is implemented, I'd strongly urge that there be a floor set--that no one can be allowed to put at risk the funds needed to keep their heads above water (because, from a practical standpoint, they aren't gambling with their money below that level, they are gambling with mine). The result would be pretty much what we have now: A small govt-guaranteed SS annuity to assure folks need no/very little other public assistance, and the individual market-based system (IRAs, 401(k)s,) that people can use to lift themselves above this level. If they want more income security (with a near gaurantee of lower overal return), they can buy a private annuity with this private money.

Aye, aye, aye...

It comes down to the fact that if our own personalized savings in whatever form beats the lowly return of SS, we want to keep it to ourselves. But if it fails, we want a "bailout" by the public. In order to avoid this, the only solution is then to have just one fund, or "one size fits all".:eek:

Ugh... I'd rather we keep the current system, SS augmented by 401k and IRA. I'd take my chances with the market, thank you.

Samclem, you have convinced me that no change is needed. Or at least people should be allowed to "opt out" of the new system and keep their existing 401k+SS.
 
That's a problem. I wonder if it would be possible to phase in such a program, by (for example), only opening it to people who are 17 or more years out from retirement, or at least they have 17 years to go before SS eligibility? Many people in that age bracket (and younger) don't expect to get SS anyway. If they all jumped ship into cooperative plans, would SS go bankrupt immediately, leaving all of us baby boomers selling pencils on the streetcorner?

Like I said, I'm not an economic analyst, but ISTM if that were the way the country decided to go, there would be some way to do it without causing a crash & burn of the SS system. Maybe phase-in would have to be even more gradual, with only those workers just starting out now eligible to split their SS tax, or by delaying SS eligibility for people who elect to split their SS tax at the beginning of the system.

It's just an idea, and unlike the other plan that's floating around, and has been discussed on a couple of threads here (it would end tax deferral on 401ks and substitute a mandatory 5% savings with gov't match for low income workers) it's voluntary, and it would allow those who wish to retire earlier than SS "early retirement" age to do so by contributions over & above the SS tax amount.

I hate to keep being negative, but I don't see any painless way to transition to a private account system.

I'm not sure how you define "bankrupt", but if we tried to phase-in some type of individual account carve-out, the regular SS system would be short money. If the younger half of the current workers all opted to redirect 50% of their taxes, then we would need to cut benefits by 25% for everyone currently retired. And the cut would get grow to almost 50% before the current "younger half" starts to retire.

If we limit the carve-out option to people who were born after 1988, then the immediate cut wouldn't be noticeable. But, benefits would still eventually be cut by 50% for the people who don't participate in the carveout before the after-1988 generation retires (that's in addition to any benefit cuts we need with the current system).
 
Here's one rub: We, as a society, will not allow anyone to starve just because they cannot/will not provide for themselves. So, if an individual decides to take all his SS money and convert it to the cooperative pension, then that group of pension-fund managers puts all the money into "Styrofoam Lawn Ornament Company, Ltd" and loses everything, who is left holding the bag?
What prevents the managers of existing pension systems from doing the same thing? Aren't there accounting standards, etc etc, that put this sort of mis/malfeasance out of the picture? The same would apply equally (if not moreso) to cooperative pension plans. I'm not suggesting just anyone should be able to start a fund and call it a cooperative pension and have people start diverting their SS tax into it. That would be a gold-edged invitation to scammers! What I have in mind is creating some way that people can buy into the equivalent of the professionally managed (not self-directed) DBPs that were once commonly available through one's employer, but have now mostly gone the way of the dinosaur. I'm eligible for a defined benefit pension through my job with City government, and there are minimum funding requirements, audits, and other safeguards to make sure that City retireees actually get their pensions, and as far as I know, they always have. Cooperative pension plans, as I envision them, would be subject to the same kind of regulations, but be available through connections other than one's employer.

However, to answer your specific question, the (required) pension insurance would "hold the bag". Now, from what I hear the PBGC that covers existing pension funds doesn't charge nearly enough in premiums to actually guarantee the pensions it covers, and if the pension fund you are depending on goes bust due to bankruptcy of the sponsoring company or whatever, you will probably get a much lower benefit than you were promised. In order for cooperative pension funds to pay the higher premiums necessary to provide adequate insurance, I suppose they'd have to pay a lower benefit for the same salary + years of service than SS would. Some people would think that's a bad deal, and stay in the SS system. Maybe there wouldn't be a stampede out of SS after all, once people saw what the actual benefit offered by a pension coop would be.

You and me--we'll be providing welfare, food stamps, etc for the rest of his life. So, if this idea you've proposed is implemented, I'd strongly urge that there be a floor set--that no one can be allowed to put at risk the funds needed to keep their heads above water (because, from a practical standpoint, they aren't gambling with their money below that level, they are gambling with mine).
As I wrote, it would be the CPPI (Cooperative Pension Plan Insurance) who would be paying for all that. Even if cooperative pension plans never come to be, we're all still required (through SS taxation) to put the funds needed to keep our heads above water at risk--at risk that the SS sytem will not pay the benefits promised, will delay eligibility, will pay benefits with the right hand and tax them away with the left, or that the government will just print the money to pay everyone "in full" and the resulting inflation will reduce the purchasing power of the benefit as much as a cut in the dollar amount would have done without the inflation.

What I'm proposing is the addition of a fourth leg to the "three legged stool" analogy. Right now a person has at least two, possibly three retirement savings possibilities: Social Security, personal, self-directed savings (IRAs, 401k's etc), and for some, employer pensions. I propose adding the option of allowing individuals to redirect part of their SS tax into a professionally-managed, defined-benefit pension system. The problem with a three-legged stool is that if it loses a leg, it can't stand. If one of the legs of a four-legged stool is lost, there are still three, and at least a chance that it won't fall over. It may not be quite as comfortable as it would have been with four, but at least it's still functional. How much money goes to each leg would be up to the individual, after the SS tax amount. Anyone who wanted to stay 100% SS could do so, and anyone who wanted to go 100% coop could do so (asssuming that there is a solution to the difficulty pointed out by independent). Anyone who wanted to do a self-managed 401k or IRA instead of a coop pension could do that--and given the inadequacy of the average American's investment management skills, my guess is that it would be the people who opt for self-managed plans who would end up on the dole.

The result would be pretty much what we have now: A small govt-guaranteed SS annuity to assure folks need no/very little other public assistance, and the individual market-based system (IRAs, 401(k)s,) that people can use to lift themselves above this level. If they want more income security (with a near gaurantee of lower overal return), they can buy a private annuity with this private money.
IMO, sending the individual retiree to purchase an annuity is not equivalent to allowing groups of retirees to form a pension fund and have it professionally managed. It replaces a pension fund controller who has a professional duty to maintain the fund in a financially sound condition so that the promised benefits can be paid with a salesperson whose professional duty, if you can call it that, is to sell an annuity no matter what. I can guess who will get the short end of the stick on that deal.
 
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