A critique of "Missed Fortune 101"

[FinanceDude]

I'd be offended by heavy-handed moderation. I think some of the posters in the thread have gotten a little personal in the attack, but I suppose I've been guilty of that as well (Sorry Art G!).

The feeling I get reading his post here is that he REALLY does believe in the product despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Do you all think that is 'real' or do you think he really knows the inferiority of the product for his clients and the profitability for himself makes him speak the way he does?

I'm not on his X-mas card list.............

I've been fortunate to never derive my living where there could be a conflict of interest - I wonder what that is like.

Count yourself fortunate. I was just wondering if ALL salespeople are BAD, or only the ones in financial services??

 

[Zathras]

Kevin's high pressure sales pitch is what makes me question his motives more than simply offering life insurance.
Appeals to authority, peer pressure, claiming that people that don't agree with his product simply are incapable of 'thinking outside the box'.
Kevin, if you are still reading, you would do better, with this crowd, with actual numbers and much much less of the high pressure sales tactics.

 

[Texas Proud]

I'd be offended by heavy-handed moderation. I think some of the posters in the thread have gotten a little personal in the attack, but I suppose I've been guilty of that as well (Sorry Art G!).

The feeling I get reading his post here is that he REALLY does believe in the product despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Do you all think that is 'real' or do you think he really knows the inferiority of the product for his clients and the profitability for himself makes him speak the way he does?

I've been fortunate to never derive my living where there could be a conflict of interest - I wonder what that is like.

I agree... light moderation is better... even if we get a troll or two... but I don't see him as a troll as some do... as I said, there are some flat earthers who do BELIEVE...

To tell the truth, I think MMND was worse than this one... I saw her as a liar and was much worse as a 'troll'... at least he seems to be 'honest' in his belief and sales...

 

[clifp]

To answer chinaco, I design various strategies for clients. (Generally they come to me to save them from what their 1% fee brokers did to them, ya get what ya pay for). Often these strategies include, real estate, various exit strategies for businesses, structured sale, asset protection, estate planning, tax strategies, private funds, and yes, IRA’s, 401k, ROTH and the like, as well. Some plans take 6 to 9 months to implement, we have attorneys and CPAs we partner with to complete many parts of these plans. Yes these often include Life Insurance too. Calling me a ‘life insurance salesman’ is like a cardiologist, administers ‘first aid’. I have consulted, Avery Dennison, Anixter Bros, ITT Industries, Vinnell Corp, Ratheon, and a dozen more… and wrote business plans professionally for many years. Looking at a financial plan more as a business plan, opens your eyes to profit where others just see expense… As for Missed Fortune… the wealthier the client, they are already doing it. It’s the others, the 'know it all wanna bee's' that just don’t get it, don’t want to, and never will.

Dude if you are smart how come you are still working? Actually how old are you?

Let me guess you were one of those 13 year old kids, who when they had career day, got all excited at the [-]life insurance salesman[/-] financial advisor presentation, and say I screw being a rock star, baseball player, astronaut, I want to read 400 page disclosure documents when I grow up.

 

[FinanceDude]

Dude if you are smart how come you are still working? Actually how old are you?

Let me guess you were one of those 13 year old kids, who when they had career day, got all excited at the [-]life insurance salesman[/-] financial advisor presentation, and say I screw being a rock star, baseball player, astronaut, I want to read 400 page disclosure documents when I grow up.

And I am still waiting for my refund from that Charles Givens seminar DW dragged me to when we were dating...........

 

[FinanceDude]

I agree... light moderation is better... even if we get a troll or two... but I don't see him as a troll as some do... as I said, there are some flat earthers who do BELIEVE...

To tell the truth, I think MMND was worse than this one... I saw her as a liar and was much worse as a 'troll'... at least he seems to be 'honest' in his belief and sales...

If he's going to "play" on here as an FA, one of the first things he should have done is brush up on his spelling. How serious is he going to be taken on a technical subject if he can't spell or use spell-check??

 

[brewer12345]

Just for KevinBrunner:

 

[W2R]

That is one of the strangest pictures I have ever seen.

 

[brewer12345]

That is one of the strangest pictures I have ever seen.

How about this one:

 

[soupcxan]

What is really frightening is the number of 5-star reviews of this book on amazon.com. This looks like the most thorough debunking of Missed Fortune 101 possible:

Doug Thorburn Book Reviews

It's really a shame that you guys scared Kevin away, I would've been thrilled to hear his counter-arguments against this criticism. The tap-dancing alone would've provided hours of entertainment.

 

[W2R]

How about this one:

Don't all babies shave?

Nope, the other one is stranger, probably because I don't really understand it at all. Some kind of mixed breed something-or-other with a magical crystal ball hanging just inches above him in the barn?

 

[brewer12345]

Nope, the other one is stranger, probably because I don't really understand it at all. Some kind of mixed breed something-or-other with a magical crystal ball hanging just inches above him in the barn?

Its a Disco Goat.

(Don't ask - you won't like the answer.)

 

[Bestwifeever]

Hmm, I think I have a new avatar....

 

[W2R]

Its a Disco Goat.

(Don't ask - you won't like the answer.)

I thought it was half dog, half bull. THAT's how much of a city girl I am! Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Texas Proud]

If he's going to "play" on here as an FA, one of the first things he should have done is brush up on his spelling. How serious is he going to be taken on a technical subject if he can't spell or use spell-check??

Hey... I did not say he was smart... just that he had not been insulting like MMND was to people quickly... and we both know that nobody on this board is going to become a client, so if that is what he is looking for he will be gone soon enough (like MMND left even though she was not 'selling' anything)...

And heck, maybe he will change his ways and actually start to contribute.. I disagree with his thinking, but he believes, so why should I say he is 'wrong'...

 

[FinanceDude]

Hey... I did not say he was smart... just that he had not been insulting like MMND was to people quickly... and we both know that nobody on this board is going to become a client, so if that is what he is looking for he will be gone soon enough (like MMND left even though she was not 'selling' anything)...

And heck, maybe he will change his ways and actually start to contribute.. I disagree with his thinking, but he believes, so why should I say he is 'wrong'...

Because he is wrong in his belief?? I can only go on what I have seen and experienced myself. One of my friends is a very successful insurance agent for NML. He has been one of their top producers forever. He knows more about LI than anyone I know. He gets calls from NML's internal experts about scenarios they come across. The guy knows split dollar, second-to-die, joint comp life, etc, better than just about anyone.

If this was TRULY a GOOD thing for people to do,my friend would be ALL OVER IT, giving seminars to his clients, doing training at corporate office to agents, etc.

When I asked him about this, he just laughed, and said something about those "cure-all tonics" that used to sell well around the turn of the century...........

 

[KevinBrunner]

response to Doug Thorburn review

A copy of my letter to Doug Thorburn;


Doug Thorburn, EA, CFP

Dear Doug,

Your critique of Douglas Andrew’s book and strategies, would be good, if for one thing; Doug’s clients, for almost 30 years, are very happy and making far more ‘spendable’ retirement income than they could have otherwise accumulated. His clients own history, is proof it works, and very well.

Yes he used generalizations; he was teaching a strategy, a concept, not designing a plan for a specific client, where there are specific numbers to consider.

I am writing because I think your intentions were honest and forthright. But, when you started out, rather honestly saying at page 5 you were against it, it was clear your paradigms got in the way, and after that, you were reading only with the intent of debunking the concept all together.

I will grant, I think the book could use a rewrite in some areas, but the concepts are solid, in application it's not as simple as in the book.

Except for those who cannot let go of paradigms and let their training and education get in the way of their ability to learn a new concept. It is an informative and thought provoking book.

Might I recommend you meet Doug, and spend some time with him designing a specific strategy using real life examples? I think you would increase your options to help your own clients.

The strategy does not work for every client, but it works well for many, and works extremely well for many others. And yes there are those abusing the strategy and harming clients, that is altogether another issue. Unfortunately this happens with mutual funds, stocks, real estate… et. al. the problem is the agent, not the strategy.

I for one, have a life policy started in 1982 with New York Life. It today has more cash than my stock market investments, and will give a greater net (after tax) income in retirement, and yet it has had less cash placed into it than my stocks. It’s the taxes during retirement causing this.

And a ROTH is a great idea, if not for all the limitations on contributions… and I do recommend my clients max their ROTH every year, then fund other investments. But it is not enough to retire on.

I read every comment I can find on the web, often I ask to meet the author of the post or review, and not a single person as taken me up on my offer to meet and discuss it all with Doug. I hope you are the first.

Doug will be here in LA with me, June 19th, might we all meet for dinner?

Kevin Brunner

=====

To the bloggers here; your examples of actuaries and others who don't use or disagree with the strategy... is likened to doctors living an average 5 years less then their patients... (following their own advice shortens their life) But I'm sure you'll have some terrific replies to that metaphor as well...

No one condones the strategy for everyone, and you should not have all your money in any one thing... And I don't believe most of you would agree with it, if God himself appeared to you and approved of it... (there's another one for your replies) I have however been entertained at your hostility, but I was hoping for more constructive comments. There have been a few.

I'd like to attach a financial plan (names changed) for your comments... but the file size even as a PDF is large and... I'm not convinced I get an honest critique here anyway... So I won't bother... Most people deny the returns in it anyway (although the companies histories are in favor of the projected returns) new ideas and concepts seem to be painful to some folks... so they call you names instead...

Doug Andrew's site has tremendous resources, I would recommend you read... MF-01 Home

Doug Andrew stopped commenting on most peoples critiques, as all the evidence he provides still does not effect their opinion, so why waste the time. And this will be my last post here as well....

And I say again, you were right, this is not a good place for these discussions.... I have however found other areas of this site interesting... As Missed Fortune is not the only thing I do for my clients....

And I do honestly wish you all the best in your portfolio returns... I hope you retire well...

 

[AnyBody]

Kevin Brenner:
I just finished The Last Chance Millionaire and am skeptical because of what appear to be omissions, errors, and mis-portrayals of the results of conventional methods of saving for retirement.

However, I do believe we're about to get hammered on tax increases and am facing a bracket jump when I hit RMDs in eight years (i.e. I'll be 63 later this year). Can you provide an illustration showing both the NAIC disclosure values and what you project would be the likely values assuming I take $100k (after-tax $75k) out of qualified plans for the next eight years invest the net in one of the policies you recommend? I would like to compare it to my projections of where I would be if I converted the net $75k/yr into a Roth IRA.

Thanks

 

[growing_older]

I have stumbled into a nest of "Missed Fortune" advisors locally. They gave a very polished seminar and offer a "free" financial plan using their leverage everything and buy insurance program. I'll be taking them up on this offer and let you all know what they recommend. Any special questions I should ask? I'm thinking I mostly just want to see where they try to lead me if I don't seem alarmed at their basic concepts.

 

[innova]

Aren't annuities really ponzi schemes at the core that would cease working if people were to stop buying them?

I cannot fathom how empty-headed someone must be to state with any seriousness that an insurance product, with its corresponding fees can outperform a diversified stock market investment.

There is a reason companies sell annuities. It is not because they are unprofitable, and if they could earn higher returns just investing in the financial markets they would do that. Your fees make up the difference, and prove why you MUST underperform in the long run.

Perhaps you should show us the following:
1) How much money is in your life ins plan from 1982, how much did you put in and when. Starting and ending value.
2) Same for retirement accounts, including what you've been invested in.

Unless you approach stock market investing with similar imprudence, I
would be absolutely, tremendously shocked.

 

[clifp]

A copy of my letter to Doug Thorburn;


Doug Thorburn, EA, CFP

To the bloggers here; your examples of actuaries and others who don't use or disagree with the strategy... is likened to doctors living an average 5 years less then their patients... (following their own advice shortens their life) But I'm sure you'll have some terrific replies to that metaphor as well... ...

Ok I'll bite.

Lets start with this your metaphor is not true.

Life expectancy of doctors: “No recent national studies have been published on age at death and causes of death for U.S. physicians, and previous studies have had sampling limitations… Data in this report are from the National Occupational Mortality Surveillance database and are derived from deaths occurring in 28 states between 1984 and 1995. Occupation is coded according to the U.S. Bureau of the Census classification system… Among both U.S. white and black men, physicians were, on average, older when they died, (73.0 years for white and 68.7 forblack) than were lawyers (72.3 and 62.0), all examined professionals(70.9 and 65.3), and all men (70.3 and 63.6). The top ten causes ofdeath for white male physicians were essentially the same as those ofthe general population, although they were more likely to die fromcerebrovascular disease, accidents, and suicide, and less likely todie from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, pneumonia/influenza,or liver disease than were other professional white men.”Am J Prev Med 2000, Volume 19, pages 155-159 Mortality rates and causes among U.S. physicians.Frank E, Biola H, Burnett CA.Abstract at [URL="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11020591&dopt=Abstract"]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11020591&dopt=Abstract[/URL]

I should add that doctors have significantly lower rate of smoking than the public, I guess they learn something in med school. A bit of googling will give you an explaination how this myth entered urban legend status.

And I do honestly wish you all the best in your portfolio returns... I hope you retire well

I hope you do your own research like I have. The dangers of going against conventional wisdom is not only does it have to be wrong, but your unconventional theory has to be right. Frankly, I'd don't like those odds.

As for my retirement, I am starting year 9 next month, I live in Hawaii, I am not 50, and I'm wealthier now than when I retired.

 

[Nords]

And I do honestly wish you all the best in your portfolio returns... I hope you retire well...

Funny thing, after reading your posts I was feeling the same sentiments for you. Because I'm presuming that your retirement portfolio has exactly the same investments that you're recommending for your clients.

 

[deserat]

OK - Mr Brunner has said goodbye 4 times and I was willing to read and follow along until:

"I'd like to attach a financial plan (names changed) for your comments... but the file size even as a PDF is large and... I'm not convinced I get an honest critique here anyway... So I won't bother... Most people deny the returns in it anyway (although the companies histories are in favor of the projected returns) new ideas and concepts seem to be painful to some folks... so they call you names instead..."

Mr Brunner, if you are still reading - you didn't understand the audience here - they are people who have for the most part retired early and have *lots* of time and bandwidth to review a *large* pdf file. The paragraph above tells me you are 'teasing' and unwilling to truly open up the plan for critique. At that point, all we have to go on is what you say and frankly, as in most of life, until one's actions match their mouth consistently, we won't believe what you say.

 

[ERD50]

I find it interesting that KevinBrunner's reply to the book review does not actually address any of the criticisms (other than acknowledging the benefits of a ROTH, and the somewhat subjective writing style statements).

He just says it was biased, closed minded, and irrelevant because our 'clients, for almost 30 years, are very happy'.

I've seen time and time again, many people buy products that they don't fully understand, and are 'happy' with them. That's because they bought the sales pitch. They may not have the expertise to evaluate if the product was better or worse than another product. But they are 'happy'. It does not mean it is a good product.

Advertising supplements and the back pages of magazines are full of over-priced, under-performing, hyped-claim, dubious quality merchandise - and most of them say 'thousands of satisfied customers'.

How about some facts?

-ERD50

 

[REWahoo]

For all of you responding to or asking for more input/explanation from Mr. Brunner, it appears as though you might have missed this phrase from his last post:

And this will be my last post here....

RIP...