|
|
01-27-2017, 01:19 PM
|
#1
|
Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Chattanooga
Posts: 499
|
A pension domino falls
The new pension law used for the first time:
Quote:
A pension fund in Cleveland became the first plan to approve benefit cuts for current retirees — before the plan has run out of money.
|
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.9f874012f60a
This only applies to multiemployer pension plans but does IMO set a precedent.
|
|
|
|
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!
Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!
|
01-27-2017, 02:32 PM
|
#2
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Spending the Kids Inheritance and living in Chicago
Posts: 17,010
|
Sounds like the members themselves voted for it:
"The fund’s proposal was green-lighted by the Treasury Department late last year. The plan was then put up for a vote by the members of the pension fund."
Which is probably smart when you are not going to get any bailout.
Take a haircut now or starve later.
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 02:46 PM
|
#3
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,554
|
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 02:49 PM
|
#4
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Dutchess County
Posts: 1,599
|
I guess they are not to big to fail.
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 03:39 PM
|
#5
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,264
|
Quote:
Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio), who is critical of the cuts, called on Congress to find a long-term fix. “Too many retirees across Ohio face uncertainty over the benefits they’ve earned,” he said. “We need to work on a bipartisan solution to protect Ohio workers from the mistakes made by those managing their funds.”
|
And why should I (as a US taxpayer) contribute to bailing out these Ohio workers for mistakes made by those managing their funds? Why not clawback management fees from those who mismanaged the funds? Sorry, but I don't see why taxpayers should pay for this mess.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 03:49 PM
|
#6
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 21,204
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski
And why should I (as a US taxpayer) contribute to bailing out these Ohio workers for mistakes made by those managing their funds? Why not clawback management fees from those who mismanaged the funds? Sorry, but I don't see why taxpayers should pay for this mess.
|
+1.
If the US Congress helps, the floodgates will open, so I assume they won't. Why reward any pension plan that quit paying in (e.g. Illinois) or kept overcommitting benefits when there are plans that are (more) solvent?
That it will come as a surprise to anyone that some public and private pensions will have to enact cuts in the years ahead is ridiculous. But people have been consciously burying their heads in the sand in Illinois and Chicago re: underfunded pensions for decades. The evidence has been publicized for many years. Another example of kicking the can down the street, those in charge knew a) that their programs were becoming increasingly underfunded and b) but they'd be long out of office before the reckoning. And if a politician told the truth, he/she couldn't get elected. Catch-22.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57
Target AA: 50% equity funds / 45% bonds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 1.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 03:55 PM
|
#7
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Dutchess County
Posts: 1,599
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski
And why should I (as a US taxpayer) contribute to bailing out these Ohio workers for mistakes made by those managing their funds? Why not clawback management fees from those who mismanaged the funds? Sorry, but I don't see why taxpayers should pay for this mess.
|
What song were you singing when wall street was bailed out?
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 04:18 PM
|
#8
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,264
|
The same song... I was not in favor of taxpayer bailouts, like many Americans.
However, as I recall, a lot of the TARP funds were forced on some banks... many of them did not want or need the capital and paid it back within a year or two... however the higher capitalization served to calm markets.
Finally, all TARP funds were paid back and the federal government made a tidy profit on the whole deal... the bailout proposed by Senator Brown is a totally different animal... taxpayers will never ever see any money back on that bailout.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 04:27 PM
|
#9
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,307
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski
T\
Finally, all TARP funds were paid back and the federal government made a tidy profit on the whole deal... the bailout proposed by Senator Brown is a totally different animal... taxpayers will never ever see any money back on that bailout.
|
Totally agree on that one!
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 04:38 PM
|
#10
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
|
I'll just mention that these multi-employer pension plans are a very different animal. Lots of different rules under the PBGC. Complex, and since I'm not directly affected by them, I didn't do a deep dive into the information, but what I saw looked like it would really take some work to figure out.
-ERD50
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 04:47 PM
|
#11
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: philly
Posts: 1,219
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski
And why should I (as a US taxpayer) contribute to bailing out these Ohio workers for mistakes made by those managing their funds? Why not clawback management fees from those who mismanaged the funds? Sorry, but I don't see why taxpayers should pay for this mess.
|
and the reality may be that the taxpayers will have to contribute either way. if most of the retirees use that pension as their sole means of support, and they don't have money, they could possible need social programs (food stamps) to survive.
lol, I don't understand why I have to pay for a lot of junk I'll end up paying for with my tax dollars.
__________________
My darling girl, when are you going to realize that being "normal" is not necessarily a virtue? it sometimes rather denotes a lack of courage~Aunt Francis
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 04:52 PM
|
#12
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Dutchess County
Posts: 1,599
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski
The same song... I was not in favor of taxpayer bailouts, like many Americans.
However, as I recall, a lot of the TARP funds were forced on some banks... many of them did not want or need the capital and paid it back within a year or two... however the higher capitalization served to calm markets.
Finally, all TARP funds were paid back and the federal government made a tidy profit on the whole deal... the bailout proposed by Senator Brown is a totally different animal... taxpayers will never ever see any money back on that bailout.
|
My problem with this is the govt found the money to bail out the megas and continues to find money for the welfare recipients but tells the working man to go to hell.
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 04:58 PM
|
#13
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,232
|
this thread ain't gonna last very long.
abidee-abidee...abidee........
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 05:00 PM
|
#14
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,004
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by HadEnuff
this thread ain't gonna last very long.
abidee-abidee...abidee........
|
He's on the way!
__________________
Numbers is hard
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 05:03 PM
|
#15
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 21,204
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Steve
My problem with this is the govt found the money to bail out the megas and continues to find money for the welfare recipients but tells the working man to go to hell.
|
We're using the term government broadly here (Fed, State) but this is reportedly the first example of a pension cut like this. The "working man" won't be singled out, other dominoes must fall - or I agree with you. Other programs will have to be reconsidered too, but retirees may also have to work longer, spend less, etc. something has to give, no way around it. The more broadly the sacrifices are shared, the more equitable IMO.
We're all going to have to come to grips what on balance we want to pay in taxes and what we expect our governments to pay for - such that they zero out. We can't just say reduce taxes and increase services, and elect politicians on that basis. Too many people are hoping unrealistically someone else is told to "go to hell." And too many people complain without bothering to understand how difficult these decisions are, the easy answers they give are nonsense.
Since you don't like the pension cuts, what's your alternative?
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57
Target AA: 50% equity funds / 45% bonds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 1.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 05:19 PM
|
#16
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Dutchess County
Posts: 1,599
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack
Since you don't like the pension cuts, what's your alternative?
|
Not really a solution but just a thought that if taxpayer dollars can bail out the rich donor corporations surly the same should be done for those pensioners.
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 05:22 PM
|
#17
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 38,007
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Steve
Not really a solution but just a thought that if taxpayer dollars can bail out the rich donor corporations surly the same should be done for those pensioners.
|
Do you expect those pensioners to pay back the bail out funds like the corporations did?
I don't think it would work that way.
It's not an equivalent situation.
__________________
Retired since summer 1999.
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 05:37 PM
|
#18
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Dutchess County
Posts: 1,599
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1
Do you expect those pensioners to pay back the bail out funds like the corporations did?
I don't think it would work that way.
It's not an equivalent situation.
|
But that is why the pension insurance corp should have been properly funded.
Lets try this idea: If your bank went belly up and you were counting on FDIC to cover their loss but the govt said "So sorry we didn't properly fund fdic you only get 50%" What would say to that?
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 05:39 PM
|
#19
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Spending the Kids Inheritance and living in Chicago
Posts: 17,010
|
|
|
|
01-27-2017, 06:12 PM
|
#20
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,962
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunset
|
That was a personal decision. Or just bad luck if your pension got converted to a 401k. That would make it "the free market."
|
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
» Recent Threads
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
» Quick Links
|
|
|