Active versus Passive

Passive. Helps me sleep at night.
 
Some how, index funds have been the stars lately. I try to use them when I can, given my 401k choices. However, it doesn't make sense to me that an active managed fund can't ditch the companies with poor prospects, over priced, or poor management, then pick those with a value bent and a good chance to beat the market. Buffet/Munger do it, are they not normal? Perhaps part of the reason is short term focus of investors, not willing to wait a quarter or two of poor performance while a fund manager picks up on the cheap.
 
I use passive for the funds I have, but also have half my equities in stocks that I manage myself. I enjoy it.


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On the equity side, I have a passive core and active on the edges (value, emerging markets), plus some individual stocks. Bonds are active funds.
 
I have passive etfs , and I am my own active manager, I also "hired" Buffet to manage some of my holdings via BRK :)

My plan is to evolve my holdings away from individual stocks into etf's.

As for Buffet/Munger, sure it seems at first they are the opposite, but in reality, they as active managers do better because of a few reasons. They get much better deals than are available on the open market because they can offer 5 billion dollar financing. They are also pretty passive, Berkshire still holds KO, Amex and others that were bought ages ago. Finally they buy entire companies, and influence the running of the company, so nasty surprises are less often for them.
 
I also have some in a self managed account, but only about 10%. And it only stays at that level if I add to it each year. I'm not very good at picking them but I do enjoy it and don't loose except for lower returns than my funds. :blush:
 
I am in the process of rolling into an IRA (retired 1 week ago). I had mostly managed funds and will continue with at least half managed funds through Vanguard. Will probably have a MidCap Index and SmallCap Index as well as an Int'l Index.
 
I am passive in low cost ETFs in my IRA (roll-over). I guess you can say I "slice and dice" but may simplify in Jan. From 13 Index funds down to 5 or 6. I am 1 year retired.

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managed. all fidelity funds. performance has been good , been using them for 26 years following the same newsletter..

one of the flaws in the index /managed fund thing is the studies may show long term index's beat 80% of the funds but the fact is it does not beat 80% of the investors.


there are hundreds if not thousands of small funds out there with very little investor money and poor performance ..

in the mean time the long term better funds get the bulk of the investor money and they some years beat their index and some years don't . in fact the last 6 years you wiould be hard pressed to find many large cap fidelity funds that didn't beat the s&p 500.

this year was a strange year in the s&p 500 stoicks got all the attention and no amount of research and stock picking ability meant a thing.


just 2 fidelity funds growth company and contra have more than a trillion dollars in them. i would be bet those two funds have more investor money than the entire bottom 20-25% of funds.


you really do not need to know who the best funds will be , you just need to avoid the bad ones and your odds go up.


personally i don't care how my individual funds do. i care about the portfolio working as a team and how it does.

like nudging a big ship i adjust my portfolio to fit the big picture better .


for example when the dollar was weak fidelity multinational and export did well , but when it strengthened a switch to a better suited fund was made.

neither fund may have beat their index but working together they did .


there are so many small funds out there that do not have enough investor money to ever do well as it cost to much to keep the lights on and pay staff .
because of high liquidations they have to kep high cash positions too.

it is all these smaller funds with little investor money that tend to skew the results of the top performing funds with the bulk of investor money.
 
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managed. all fidelity funds. performance has been good , been using them for 26 years following the same newsletter..

Do they match or beat the index funds? Or sometimes yes and sometimes no ?
Just curious
 
managed. all fidelity funds. performance has been good , been using them for 26 years following the same newsletter..

Mathjak,

We are total opposites on every aspect of investing. I am all index funds and if I wanted managed fund it would certainly not be one of Fidelity Funds.

I might consider wellington and wellesley for example....

But that is all fine.... as long as you don't want to buy me a new keyboard :)
 
many long term have beaten their indexes but like i say i am not interested in tracking individual funds. i am more concerned about the entire portfolio and whether it

meets my comfort range in volatility and income goals.

i have been following the fidelity insight newsletter since 1987. 100k without another penny added into the growth model is 2 million today after expenses..

thats is about 450k more than a s&p 500/ total market fund would have done . could i have done the same with index funds if they existed? don't know since many of the funds used have no equals.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/28/funds-fidelity-investing-idUSL5N0L23P520140128
 
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Some how, index funds have been the stars lately.


Nah, Index funds have been crushing it for decades. There are very few actively managed funds that can be their indexes over any meaningful period of time.


However, it doesn't make sense to me that an active managed fund can't ditch the companies with poor prospects, over priced, or poor management, then pick those with a value bent and a good chance to beat the market.


Well, that is the trick, isn't it? How do you define "Poor prospects" or "over priced"? Is SDRL going to get hammered in 2015 or is this the perfect buying opportunity? Is AMZN overpriced or is Apple a good buy? Some of it is obvious, like ditching companies that are declaring bankruptcy or have some majorly negative accounting issues or news coming about, but beyond that on the margins, it is hard to tell.


It is much more complicated than that. A variety of factors work against active management. Active managed funds have limitations on what they can invest in depending on how they define their strategy and such. If they say they are domestic, they can't invest in international funds, under any circumstances, no matter how attractive or good the investment.


Actively managed funds can't use margin, which can be helpful depending on market conditions. For example, now would be a fantastic time to borrow on margin as rates are well below 1%. For institutional, it is probably below .5%. There are also other strategies that aren't typically used by actively managed funds, such as covered call writing, but closed end funds DO use them.

Another thing are issues with stupid retail investors that typically surge into funds at the worst time (at the top) forcing fund managers to buy when they should be selling and bail at the worst times (at the bottom) forcing fund managers to sell when they should be buying. Also, fund managers can't be fully invested due to shareholder redemptions, so that is a drag on returns.

Funds also have limitations on what they can invest in, for instance, they typically cant invest more than a certain amount in a fund, AND they don't want to invest more than a certain % of the float on any given day for the sake of liquidity and overall ownership of the company.


For example, they may not be able to invest more than say 2% of the overall fund assets in any specific stock. For a 1B fund, that is 20M. They also don't want to invest more than 5% of the overall float, which may be 50% of say a 1B company or 5% of 500M, so they COULD invest 25M, but they can't due to fund policies. Now, just do that 49 more times. Is a 2% going to move the NAV of the fund substantially? Not really.


Then you consider as the fund grows and grows, these numbers still remain and it becomes more difficult to invest in anything that is going that isn't a huge traditional blue chip company. They can't invest a substantial amount of money into smaller companies that are going to deliver the higher returns, which are typically smaller companies due to their self-imposed restrictions.

In Peter Lynch's book one up on Wall St, he goes into detail about the difficulties in investing as a fund manager.


Buffet/Munger do it, are they not normal?


No, they aren't. They are multi-billionaires and they aren't fund managers. Soros has beaten the market for years, but he was a billionaire like 30+ years ago. He made a billion dollars in a single day in the 60's breaking the bank of England, but that was trading currency, which most mutual funds can't do. They have other investment options and things available to them, like borrowing at sub 1% levels or getting 10-1 margin levels.


Perhaps part of the reason is short term focus of investors, not willing to wait a quarter or two of poor performance while a fund manager picks up on the cheap.


Also true, or consider the wave of redemptions at PIMCO following Bill Gross's departure. Is there anything that has substantially changed about the product mix he was investing in? His strategy was sound the day before he left, but now the day after, sell everything?
 
Mathjak,

We are total opposites on every aspect of investing. I am all index funds and if I wanted managed fund it would certainly not be one of Fidelity Funds.

I might consider wellington and wellesley for example....

But that is all fine.... as long as you don't want to buy me a new keyboard :)

i always liked wellesley but at this stage with a 40 year bull market in bonds winding down i much prefer a mix i can reduce bond holdings in if need be, or swap out balanced funds.

i think going forward in uncharted territory with high stock valuations and low rates together with soon to rise rates are going to produce far different results in static portfolios that do not adjust to fit the world around them as far as the big picture. .

i think the static portfolios that were basically buy and die and could sit with bonds with that 40 year long bull market in bonds may have it tough going by not adjusting more to the bigger picture.


but time will tell .
 
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For me, tax-efficiency plays a very big role, so I am all passive, except for that Vanguard GNMA fund which is actively managed.

Folks with active funds in taxable accounts may have higher tax costs.
 
Mostly passive.....except for pssst Wellesley.

I buy passive index funds to keep costs down. I manage my portfolio by rebalancing.
 
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95% passive - 100% of retirement in VG Target Retirement aka passive plus full auto when it comes to rebalancing.

5% in a few good stocks for medical reasons to keep male hormones from flaring up too badly. My stock picks over the decades have been like my football teams - scarce victories - Saint's, Chiefs and my old alma mater Washington Huskies.

heh heh heh - :nonono: :mad: :greetings10:
 
The only domestic ETFs that aren't indexed are the dividend-type from the likes of Vanguard.

My only actively-managed mutual funds and some closed-end/ETFs are for foreign stocks. If I only chose index for foreign, there's a huge # of stocks that I don't have exposure to. By going with a lot of active-managed funds for foreign, the hope is that they continue their mission of not just replicating the index, and instead trying to get exposure to many small/mid cap foreign companies that the foreign indexes (often just the top 20 or top 40) don't have.
 
i started tracking an etf/index model that interested me over the last year just for comparison to the active models i do use. i have been evaluating what i would have done if i made the swich vs what i am doing as one day i was hoping to cut expenses by making the switch..


the etf model is a 50/50 mix with very broad coverage including commodity coverage. basically it is designed to be a buy and die static model which carries through year to year with just rebalancing.

the models i do use are a bit more conservative and have no tips or commodity coverage at the moment.. i have 2/3's in the fidelity insight income model and 1/3 in the growth and income model. the funds in the models change dynamically and nudge the portfolio based on the world around it as opposed to static forever.


the retirement portfolio i find interesting is :

2 years of withdrawals in cash. that is about 8% of the total

6% in BSV VANGUARD SHORT TERM BOND INDEX ETF

10% BND VANGUARD TOTAL BOND ETF

04% LQD I-SHARES INVESTMENT GRADE CORPORATE BONDS ETF

7% VTIP VANGUARD SHORT TERM INFLATION PROTECTED BONDS

5% VANGUARD WELLESLEY INCOME FUND (ONLY NON ETF).
23% VIG VANGUARD DIVIDEND APPRECIATION ETF

14% VTI VANGUARD TOTAL MARKET ETF

13% VXUS VANGUARD TOTAL INTERNATIONAL ETF

5% JNK BARCLAYS HIGH YIELD BOND ETF

5% DBC COMMODITY FUND ETF

NUMBERS ARE ROUNDED OFF.



no doubt in a straight up bull run the etf model would win.

but so far it has been kind of an up and down ride this past year.

so startng with about 2.50 million in each the active more conservative model is ahead by about 35k.

the etf model took a nasty dip early on and has not recovered well from it. the drag of the commodities portion being down about 30k hurt it.

without such broad coverage and if we didn't try to have commodities coverage they would have been neck and neck.

at the worst point this past year the etf model was down 70k from the active model.

but the comparison is not to compare apples to apples ,it was to compare had i done the changeover how would i have done.


of course 1 year means little but it is quite interesting watching them move against each other .

it also shows that while expenses do mean something the biggest factors will be allocations and most important your own entrance and exit points.

it is very difficult to compare portfolio performance and not just funds since so many variable factors enter the equation.

while over the decades my fidelity insight growth model did very very well ,i really can't compare it to a what if i did the same thing indexing or using etf's and had even lower expenses since many of the funds have no equals.

with allocations out weighing everything else you just can not compare apples to apples easily .


there really is no way i can compare results that would be apples to apples . this is more a case of how would i have done if i did what i was going to do vs what i am doing.


today since i am a far more conservative investor than i was i really have my own benchmark i use.

did i beat doing nothing and just buying a bunch of muni bonds and calling it a day. was the effort , pain at times and hassle of dealing with markets worth it.

if i did better , i am happy and it was worth the effort,

if my portfolio allows me to sleep at night and generates my income goals that is all i care about . i couldn't really care as to whether i squeaked out an extra couple of percent or beat some index.

it is only about me now and my portfolio requirements and no longer am i as focused on growing richer as much as i am focused on not growing poorer .
 
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Passive for the last few years since retirement. It has worked out well and we are pleased with the service and the results.
 
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