Active vs Passive Management

Thank you for all replies.

@clifp: just to clarify, the 5 funds are not a single mgmt team but actually all have different teams and are in different fund families. Also, I absolutely agree that mgmt change = sell (one of my choices originally was based on having performance under current management).

@Animorph: I don't completely agree with the 10-year comment (i.e. that we have to wait another 10 years after first 10 years). On the one hand, the funds I picked about 3 years ago were indeed based on their stats back then including 10-year ones. OTOH, last 3 years also provide additional clues as to their ongoing performance. So, while I agree I should probably give more weight to more recent periods, longer periods should still be looked at. After all, if much of fund's success from 13 years ago was in the first say 3 years (which is usually TRUE according to Bogle et al. since as more funds arrive the harder it is to succeed later + additional funds arrive only after some good record), then last 10 years should not have nearly as good of a record at this point.

@FUEGO: Good points, and on closer examination I found some embarrassing issues with my apples-to-orange comparisons. The funds are in 401(k), which explains some limitations btw and made my observations more surprising. As for comparisons I tried to compare them with the ETFs/Funds that I would have bought as a substitute for each one instead of true index for same category. At closer look, I also do see some underperformance I had not noticed with my original post (I guess this reply made me extra careful, so I am glad I started the thread!)... I also added 6 months performance to better capture the results since March lows. Here are the current results... Notes:
- Comparison is now made vs real benchmark (I think!) and vs what I might replace the fund with, even though it changes the category somewhat (I guess that's still an orange: e.g. large cap instead of large cap growth).
- 10 years is not applicable in many cases NOT because the fund was not there but because the comparable index fund was not. 10 year and "since inception" histories are very good for all these vs corresponding morningstar benchmarks.

Large cap growth: FCNTX vs VIGRX & VINIX: ER 0.94%
outperform: 3/5/10yrs
underperform: 3m (vs orange), 6m, 1y(vs benchmark)
same: 3m (vs benchmark), 1yr (vs orange, i.e. overall sp500 index I can use: VINIX)

mid cap: JMCVX vs VIMSX & VOE: ER 1.06%
outperform: 3/5yr (10yr n/a);
underperform: 1yr/6m/3m

small cap: ARTVX vs NAESX & VBR: ER 1.2%
outperform: 1/3/5yr (10yr n/a)
underperform 3m/6m(vs orange, i.e. VBR)
same: 3m/6m(vs benchmark)

developed int'l: DODFX vs VEA/Foreign Lrge stock index/World stock index/MSCI EAFE NR USD: ER 0.64%
outperform in all periods! I compared this one against the 4 benchmarks but still not sure which is most appropriate since DODFX includes japan too. The only period DODFX underformed would be if I chose to see oct'08-march'09 period, but of course for any fund you can find some periods of underperformance I imagine - otherwise it IS an index fund!

emerging markets: LZEMX vs VWO: ER 1.17%
outperform: 3m/3yr(except for vwo which is same)/5yr(10yr na)
underperform: 1yr
same: 6m

Summary: quite a bit more of recent underperformance than I originally noticed but...
- artvx, dodfx, lzemx still seem really good even with high ER fees.
- fcntx is not doing too great lately but long term performance still impressive
- jmcvx is really starting to underperform (i was least sure of this one and have had least $$ here)

Action plan: dropping jmcvx in favor of VOE index; still holding on to others for now; likely to drop in another 6m-1yr if I continue to see underperformance. If I do switch, it'll be to index funds.

------------------------------------------------

FWIW

I looked at some other funds that were mentioned on this thread. For mixed stock-bond funds, I don't know a good index fund, so I just looked at what morningstar picked (though it's just an index, not a fund):

VWELX (Wellington) vs "Moderate Allocation" [1] & "Morningstar Moderate Target Risk" [2]
outperform: 1y/3y(vs 1)/5y(vs 1)/10y
underperform: 3m/9m (it would not let me do 6m)
same: 3y (vs 2)/5y (vs 2)
Summary: not too great vs [2] as of more recent dates.

VWINX (Wellesley Income) vs "Conservative Allocation" [1] and "Morningstar Moderate Target Risk" [2]
outperform: 3m(vs 1)/1y (vs 1)/3y/5y (vs 1)/10y
underperform: 3m(vs 2)/6m(vs 2)/1y (vs 2)
same: 6m(vs1)/5y (vs 2)
Summary: not too great vs [2] as of more recent dates.

PRPFX (Permanent Portfolio) vs "Conservative Allocation" [1] & "Morningstar Moderate Target Risk" [2]
outperform: 3m/1y/3y/5y/10y
underperform: 6m (vs 2)
same: 6m (vs 1)
Was it ever underperforming? 1999-2001 period it was.
Summary: awesome (and this is with ER: 0.84%)... is this apples to oranges comparison?

HSTRX (Hussman Strategic Total Return) vs "Conservative Allocation" [1] & "Morningstar Moderate Target Risk" [2]
outperform: 3y/5y/10y (vs 1)
underperform: 3m/6m/1y
same: 10y (vs 2)
Summmary: underperformed (significantly) lately

TGBAX (Templeton Global Bond Adv) vs "World Bond" & "BarCap US Agg Bond TR USD"
outperformed in all periods ending today (3m/6m/1y/3y/5y/10y), and that's with 0.67% ER!
Was it ever underperforming? well, 2000-2003 it was underperforming [2], but [2] is US only I guess, not global; 1997-2002 it was underperforming both [1] and [2]

VINEX (Vanguard Int'l Explorer) vs "Foreign Small/Mid Growth" (another good benchmark?)
outperform: 6m/1y/10y
underperform: 3y
same: 3m/5y
FUEGO, thank you for mentioning VSS. It's wierd though that VINEX (actively managed fund) has lower ER than VSS passively managed fund for same category (0.36% vs 0.38%), and both are from Vanguard!

PTTDX (PIMCO Total Return D) vs "Intermediate-Term Bond" [1] & "BarCap US Agg Bond TR" [2]
outperform: 3m (vs 2)/6m (vs 2)/1y/3y/5y/10y
underperform:3m (vs 1)/6m(vs 1)
same:
This a bond fund with 0.75% ER and has done very well.

CGMFX vs VIGRX
outperform: 3m/3y/5y/10y
underperform: 6m/1y

DODGX vs "Large Value"
outperform: 3m/6m/1y/10y
underperform: 3y
same: 5y

CGMRX vs VNQ (real estate)
outperform: 6m/3y/5y/10y
underperform:
same: 3m/1y
Very nice!.. is this apples to apples?

BRUSX vs "Small Growth"
outperform in all except same or slightly behind on 3y

FNMIX & PREMX both track emerging markets bond index well over long period even with their ~1% ER and outperform the index lately (3m-3y periods).
 
Does anyone have PTTDX, DODGX,DODFX, CGMFX?
I have the last three. I am seriously considering putting money in PTTDX.
I have a good chunk of DODGX. It's my only non VG holding. I wouldn't buy more, but I have owned it for decades and it has generally outperformed so I just can't let go of it...
 
I wonder about the efficient markets too. There seems to be a lot of manipulation going on. By someone, not sure who. Like the oil market last year. Maybe its just paranoia on my part, but I feel someone out there is gaming the system. Maybe I'm jealous and just want a part of the action.
 
The funds are in 401(k)

On the one hand, the funds I picked about 3 years ago were indeed based on their stats back then including 10-year ones.

That is a lot of survivorship bias.

First, most 401(k) administrators only add new fund offerings with good performance records, and drop offerings that under perform. After employees have ridden the funds down of course. So you should expect any fund in a decent 401(k) to have better than average long term performance stats.

Second, you definitely can not do comparisons now based on stats from before you invested. So only comparison periods of less than three years are relevant in this case.

I personally index all my mutual fund equity investments because I'm a cheap coward.

Currently my highest expense ratios are 0.23% on a small IRA account, and 0.20% on a large taxable Emerging Markets fund. Portfolio X-Ray tells me that my most concentrated stock holding is the 1.00% of my assets in my current employer's stock. My most concentrated stock holding via mutual funds represents only 0.43% of my assets. That is diversification that lets me sleep at night. I know that some active funds will outperform my index investments, but to do that while also overcoming their expense disadvantage they will have to take bigger risks. Sure they may have multiple year winning streaks, but eventually risks bite. I prefer the safer indexing path.
 
Animorph,

I should have been more precise in my language. Show me a PAIR of
BALANCED INDEX FUNDS, with the same asset allocation, with better
long term performance than Wellesley and Wellington.

Cheers,

charlie
 
Thanks for your inputs bamsphd

That is a lot of survivorship bias.

First, most 401(k) administrators only add new fund offerings with good performance records, and drop offerings that under perform. After employees have ridden the funds down of course. So you should expect any fund in a decent 401(k) to have better than average long term performance stats.

Good points.

Second, you definitely can not do comparisons now based on stats from before you invested.

Why not? Fund performance does not depend on whether I have the money in it or not.
 
3. And Owning Nothing but about 80% Bonds and 20% in a 40/60 or 20/80 Balanced Fund such as a PRPFX and HSTRX..or VWINX at the Most..

Just go back to the past 10 yrs and compare these to whatever else you have going "against" you and see for yourself..

Do you think that the past decade where valuations for equities started at a 40x PE might not be the best single period to use for evaluating the merits of stocks vs. bonds?

And with 10-yr treasury yields currently within their lowest quartile since 1871 (according to Robert Shiller's data) compared to the top quartile in 1999, one might wonder if the next 10-yrs can possibly be as good for bonds as the past 10 were.

IF they have enough that a 5% WDR will be enough to live off of.
Owning More In Equities only Lines the Pockets Of Fund families , Brokers and Wall Street..to fund THEIR Retirement and steal it from us..

With bonds generically yielding in the low 3% area, how can you possibly expect to be able to withdraw an inflation adjusted 5% from a bond heavy portfolio? I don't see how the math works unless you're expecting 2% average annual deflation or plan to consume your principal.
 
Everyone talks about fund expenses and Index funds but no one mentions which Index fund to put in retirement account? Can some of you please describe which index funds (percent wise) are in your retirement account?
Thanks.
 
Second, you definitely can not do comparisons now based on stats from before you invested. So only comparison periods of less than three years are relevant in this case.

Why not? Fund performance does not depend on whether I have the money in it or not.

I'll rephrase. You can not do comparisons now based on stats from before you invested, unless your comparisons also include all the other funds you did not invest in. We already know if you include all the funds, index funds will beat the majority, but by no means all of the funds in existence.

Let me try some examples to hopefully make this clearer. Suppose (totally made up numbers), that $100 invested in fund A had balances over the last 10 years of:
$100,$110,$121,$132,$143,$155,$170,$190,$260,$150.
Suppose fund B had values of
$100,$105,$110,$115,$119,$110,$110,$130,$135,$140

Now suppose based on that wonderful historic record, three years ago you invested in fund A at $170, instead of in fund B at $110. Today you evaluate your investments, and decide that because fund A still has the better 10 year performance record, you were a genius to invest in fund A instead of fund B. Even though fund A lost you money, and fund B would have made you money! Since A still has the better ten year record, you say I know the research says B should be better over the long term, but I picked A which has still beat B over the long term, so I'm sticking with A.

Does that example make the problem clearer?

Using the classic coin-toss as the basis for an example, suppose you have a large room full of people tossing coins, and a bunch of machines also tossing coins. After seven tosses you arrive and are offered betting choices. You can bet your money splitting it between any of the coin tossers. You will win or lose based on how many heads they toss. If you bet money on a tosser caught cheating you lose all your bet. You will also need to pay each tosser part of your bet. Thankfully the tossers must disclose how much you will need to pay. You notice all the machines charge you less than any of the humans, usually something around 0.2% of your bet. The humans have lots of different fees that don't seem to make much sense, but are always higher than the machine tossers charge. A guy named Vanguard seems to be the cheapest human asking around 0.5%. There are also some advisers around the room who have been watching the tosses closely, and say for an additional fee they will invest your money for you with only those tossers with tossing skill. You notice that some of those advisers charge a lower or even no fee for this service, but seem to only pick tossers who charge the highest fees, and share some of that fee with the adviser.

Happily there are terminals in the room that allow you to not just place bets, but also to see the toss history and fees charged by every tosser. So you decide to ignore the advisers.

You have read that the smart way to invest is to just bet on the machine tossers, but lots of the humans have perfect tossing records, while the machines are closer to average. You decide to select only those humans who have so far tossed perfect heads, and who charge below average fees for a human. You split your bet between a number of these humans. After three tosses, you compare the 10 toss history of your choices, all of whom had 7 heads when you picked them, with the 10 toss history of the machines, most of which had already tossed some tails before you entered the room. Your choices have definitely not kept up their perfect tossing records since you placed your bets, but they still have better 10 toss histories than most of the machines, even if they do charge higher fees. So you think you will stick with them, except for that tosser who was replaced by a substitute tosser.

While you are waiting for the next toss, you post about your betting experience here. I try to convince you that on an after fees basis, I think you would do better to bet on the machines.
 
Everyone talks about fund expenses and Index funds but no one mentions which Index fund to put in retirement account? Can some of you please describe which index funds (percent wise) are in your retirement account?
Thanks.

You might like this thread http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/showpost.php?p=734575&postcount=5

If I was starting out today with what I now know, I would like to invest in Vanguard's total world market index for my equities, Vanguard short-term bond index for my emergency fund, a money market fund as the destination for all dividends to keep my tax lots simple, and a five year TIPS ladder as my primary bond allocation. The reality that my 401(k) does not offer any of those choices, and that my existing taxable investments have significant unrealized gains that I don't want to realize makes my current investments a bit more complex.

I am currently 1/3rd US equities, 1/3 Foreign equities, and 1/3 cash and short-term bonds. The bulk of the US equities are in Vanguard's extended market index because of historical accident. The foreign equities are split 1/3 each in Vanguard's european, pacific, and emerging market indexes. The bulk of the bonds are in a 5 year TIPS ladder, and Vanguard's short-term corporate fund.
 
bamsphd, good coin toss analogy.

I think mainly we don't have enough info to know if it's a total crap shoot or not. 10 year performance may be resting on how a fund handled two down markets as much as anything else. Not much of a test. Morningstar goes back only 15 years for screening performance. Not to mention most funds are probably younger than that anyway. Kind of hard to prove anything with that small amount of data. It would be nice if total return data was more accessible as well.

I selected my funds primarily by 10 year total return performance (including some consistancy across those 10 years), fund family performance, stewardship, and a team value approach, low turnover, and costs. Hardly any index funds showed up near the top of my screens. I do have similar ETF funds that I use for benchmarks, a couple of which are included in my portfolio. Now I have to wait 10 years to flush that old performance data out of the calculation to see how they do in the 10 years after I picked them. If they still look like above average performers I'll be happy. If not, I can move to more index funds. I don't mind average performance, but I don't think it is a lock that cheap index funds are better than all active funds. So far I've been happy with all but one of my funds, so no need to change yet.
 
I'll rephrase. You can not do comparisons now based on stats from before you invested, unless your comparisons also include all the other funds you did not invest in. We already know if you include all the funds, index funds will beat the majority, but by no means all of the funds in existence.

Thank you for your input. You bring up the issues frequently quoted by the Authors supporting indexing. This implies that you are talking about including survivorship bias in our thinking and analysis. It also assumes that all index funds survive and other funds have mortality. Can we really assume this?

There are better and less good index funds. High costs and tracking error may be something to look out for. Some indexes are "better" than others and therefore so are their funds.

I am not some shill for the mutual fund complexes. I just see holes in the arguments.
See the link below for the Vanguard S&P 500 index (VFINX).

Vanguard 500 Index Investor (VFINX) | Performance

You will see that it's performance across all time frames listed is average, not superior. Shouldn't we see a rise in performance relative to its peer funds as the time periods lengthen?

Free to canoe
 
I don't mind average performance, but I don't think it is a lock that cheap index funds are better than all active funds.

Oh, I don't think anyone will say that cheap index funds are better than all active funds. But, I would say that cheap index funds, over time, are better than the vast majority of managed funds (especially after including the effects of expenses), and that it is not practical to determine which managed funds will outperform in advance. But, many people disagree, and that's what keeps the expensive managed funds afloat.
 
that's what keeps the expensive managed funds afloat.

. . . and the markets efficient.

So I'd like to extend a special thanks to everyone who's paying full fare on the actively managed funds, because without you, I wouldn't be able to get a basically free ride buying the index. Cheers. :flowers:
 
See the link below for the Vanguard S&P 500 index (VFINX).

Vanguard 500 Index Investor (VFINX) | Performance

You will see that it's performance across all time frames listed is average, not superior. Shouldn't we see a rise in performance relative to its peer funds as the time periods lengthen?

Free to canoe

Two possible explanations, consider the 10 year return at 56% ranking -

1) Is survivorship bias a factor here? I think that means 56% of all *current* funds in the category, right? I think it would help to know the record of *all* the funds from ten years back. If they closed down or merged poor performing ones, those records are no longer bringing the current average down.

2) Are the better performing funds in the 10-year category the same ones each year? If they cycle in/out, it really does not help an investor much.

This all seems to be too selective, unless I am misinterpreting the data.

So I guess we could check - do the current top ten funds in the 10 year category have a consistently better 10 year record in the majority of the past ten years ( a twenty year record)?

-ERD50
 
Very interesting discussion. Thank you all. Some responses below.

@bamsphd: Thank you very much for your input. I was hoping folks like you would respond to this thread! I am a little uneasy with coin-toss analogy since it ASSUMES as a premise that active managers are dummies and have no value beyond random picks. This of course leads to the conclusion that they are not worth paying. Now, I am not saying this is an incorrect model, but it's certainly not a proof due to this circular reasoning.

Having said this, I don't think you were trying to prove the premise itself but were just illustrating your other point on why performance in first 10 years should not matter when funds were picked already based on those years. Here is an issue though - unlike coid tosses, funds' performance varies a lot from year to year. In fact according to Bogle et al, usually it is the FIRST years that bring best results to the funds (which is why they then grow and survive) whereas during LATER years performance suffers. So, looking at years 1-10 and years 3-13 should eliminate those "best first years" and years 3-10 could actually be not THAT great. Still, since years 3-10 DID participate in original fund selection, I do agree they should not carry as much weight in further analysis, but I am just not so sure they should be completely discounted. So, I come to conclusion that while last 3 years should indeed carry quite a bit more weight, 10-year history (for years 3-13) still is somewhat relevant and could be quite different from history for years 1-10.

As an aside by the way, in your own example, it so happens that while fund A outperformed fund B during the 9 years in between (you need 11 quotes for complete 10 years, but you have 10), fund B actually outperformed fund A if you start with 3rd quote instead of 1st.

@Free to Canoe: Why would not index funds survive? I would think be definition, their value would go to 0 only if their representative market goes to 0, in which case (for diversified enough index), all the respective funds would also go to 0 (except those that might short).

Why do you say index have high fees? They have the lowest ones. Also, has tracking error really ever been a problem for these?

I think you bring up a great question: why is VFINX in 56% percentile over 10 years compared to rest of funds in its category:confused:

@ERD50
Two possible explanations, consider the 10 year return at 56% ranking -

1) Is survivorship bias a factor here? I think that means 56% of all *current* funds in the category, right? I think it would help to know the record of *all* the funds from ten years back. If they closed down or merged poor performing ones, those records are no longer bringing the current average down.

2) Are the better performing funds in the 10-year category the same ones each year? If they cycle in/out, it really does not help an investor much.

The 10-year 56% ranking for VFINX is really disturbing. I agree with (1) that it is a factor. Does anyone have references to something indicating how big of a factor it is? Is there data adjusting for this? Can this account for 30-40% moving 56% to 86-96%?

I have to disagree with (2). According to the 56% figure, any investor who believes in good active managers and happened to invest 10 years ago in any of the 55% that beat the index fund, would still be ahead at the end of last 10 years - even if sometimes they underperformed. And this accounts for their bad years too! Now, going back to (1), if say half of the funds died during the 10 year period, then of course, what now seems like 55% would really be closer to 25% of available funds 10 years ago. (I am assuming the 56% percentile for the 10-year period only includes funds that existed 10 years ago; otherwise, how would they make the comparison?)

Thanks again for all contributions again! And by the way, I am NOT an active management proponent and do invest a lot in passively managed funds... I am just looking for more proof that those managers with great past records are really just dummies throwing coins. :)
 
2) Are the better performing funds in the 10-year category the same ones each year? If they cycle in/out, it really does not help an investor much.

I have to disagree with (2). According to the 56% figure, any investor who believes in good active managers and happened to invest 10 years ago in any of the 55% that beat the index fund, would still be ahead at the end of last 10 years - even if sometimes they underperformed. And this accounts for their bad years too!

True, but that only affirms that buying the fund ten years ago (and holding through any troughs) was a good thing. But, ten years ago what led us to buy the fund, and hold it through troughs? If it was a dog (or even mediocre) 10 years ago, we wouldn't have bought it on this basis. So that is why I say it is important to know if the fund cycles in/out. We don't have a crystal ball or a time machine. I need to buy the fund that does well the next ten years -and you want to base that on how it did the past ten years. We need to know if there is correlation there (it may be an inverse correlation, actually).

And I may not have been clear - I'm not talking about their annual performance cycling in/out over the past ten years - I mean their 10 year performance reviewed for each of the past ten years ( 10 data points with 10 years each, going back a total of twenty years). If that isn't reasonably consistent, what does it tell us? IOW, can we get 10 snapshots of the top 20 funds (measured by their 10 year performance), one snapshot for each year 1998 to 2008? Would the winners in 1998 be winners in 2008?

Look back at bamsphd's post with the 10 year made up numbers for fund A &B. If you bought Fund A 10 years ago, you are good. But if you bought it 3 years ago at 170 (based on a seven year stellar record), you did poorly. Same fund, same great 10 year record. Glancing at some charts from M*'s top rated 10 year funds, I saw some charts like that. Who's to know?

-ERD50
 
The 10-year 56% ranking for VFINX is really disturbing. I agree with (1) that it is a factor. Does anyone have references to something indicating how big of a factor it is? Is there data adjusting for this? Can this account for 30-40% moving 56% to 86-96%?

S&P does this report semi-annually . . .

http://www2.standardandpoors.com/spf/pdf/index/SPIVA_2009_Midyear.pdf

They obviously have a dog in this fight, so some may not consider their analysis objective. But their results do at least track with what nearly all academic research on the subject has also said. Indexes outperform.

According to the report, the S&P 500 outperformed 51.52%, 52.37% 62.95% of domestic large cap funds for 1 yr, 3 yr, and 5 yr periods ending June 30, 2009 (they don't compare 10 yr performance).

A possible reason for the difference between the S&P findings and Morningstar is that they do adjust for survivorship bias, among other things. According to the report, only 65% of the Domestic Large Cap Funds that started the period survived 5 years. I assume that dropping 35% of the worst performing funds would skew the data pretty heavily.

One other thing. All of these numbers reflect a single point in time, which may not represent the broader sweep of history. Here are the results from the same S&P report released six months earlier (December 31, 2008)

Over the five year market cycle from 2004 to 2008, S&P 500 outperformed 71.9% of actively managed large cap funds, S&P MidCap 400 outperformed 79.1% of mid cap funds and S&P SmallCap 600 outperformed 85.5% of small cap funds. These results are similar to that of the previous five year cycle from 1999 to 2003.
. . . A nearly 900bp improvement for the S&P by shifting the date six months.
 
I know this discussion will never end , managed vs passive but the last 2 years not to mention 2000-2001 should make you look for something else.

It dosen't matter very much is management expenses are .45 vs .89 if the funds your money are down 30-40% over the course of a year. I can't tolerate that kind for drawdown and do I care if a manger beats their benchmark if the fund is still down 30%.

Since 1999 I have attempted to be more proactive and move to the sidelines, managed to get out in summer 2000 and back in 2003. We were out January of 2008 and started putting money back in June of 2009.
It's been discussed many places using simple moving averages can help you side step much of the volitility we have seem especially if using index funds.

Market timing yeah I guess it is but its worked for me take a look.

dshort.com - Financial Life Cycle Planning
SSRN-A Quantitative Approach to Tactical Asset Allocation by Mebane T. Faber
Tactical Asset Allocation For The Masses
 
@Yrs To Go

Thank you! That's exactly what I was asking about. Interesting reports. I looked through them and put together attached summary table. It lists percentages of active funds that corresponding benchmark outperformed. I picked overall domestic equities, S&P500, and lrg/mid/small value indexes since people often pick those.

Per S&P, this includes survivorship bias and fund fees (but not loads). Does not include index fund fees, but I guess they are pretty small.

Observations:
(1) Overall, if you randomly picked an active fund (between 1998 and 2004), you would outperform index in 40% of cases over the next 5 years! (Yes, mid cap indexes appears to be an exception for some reason - probably there are exceptions in opposite direction too since this 40% applies to all domestic equities.)

(2) For some reason, all Value indexes were changing from year to year. First "BARRA" ones were quoted, then "Citigroup", finally just plan value ones without additional qualifier. Is this related to some indexes in fact disappearing?? (Perhaps FreeToCanoe had a point that indexes can also disappear along with their funds then??)

Unfortunately, I think these numbers can be looked at both ways - on the one hand, you are probably not going to be doing too badly, "on average" beating 60% of funds; on the other, there are still a huge number of active funds that outperform indexes.

I was really hoping to see 90% kind of outperformance. (Interestingly, many bond indecies at the end of some of these reports in fact do report 90-100% outperformances! But I did not study that part in more details.)

Passive investor may say: This is 5-year data, what about 10-20 years? Active investor may then reply: Why does not S&P list the 10 year data? Is it "bad"? Or do they not have it? If they do not have it, then why would anyone else have it?

Now, I guess the big question is, as ERD50 pointed out, if you pick a fund where manager has been there for a long time and has a long history of both long and short-term outperformance, do you get a better than the random-pick 40% chance of outperforming the index??
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I am a passive investor. By just following the index, this avoids the situation where I might have a lot of money in an actively mananged fund, and then the fund manager leaves. By being passive, that is one less variable to have to react to.

I just follow the index in good times as well as bad.
 
Now, I guess the big question is, as ERD50 pointed out, if you pick a fund where manager has been there for a long time and has a long history of both long and short-term outperformance, do you get a better than the random-pick 40% chance of outperforming the index??

Even more interesting....... If you pick a fund where the manager has been there for a long time and has a long history of both long and short-term outperformance, do you get a better than the random-pick 60% chance of underperforming the index, perhaps substantially?

I really don't need more variables in my RE portfolio. Therefore the bulk (close to 70%) of my domestic equity exposure is through TSM. I do have some small positions in actively managed funds but I treat these like individual equities and keep them to small percentages.

I'm busy enough trying to make my allocation decisions without needing to pick fund managers and monitor their performance trying to anticipate how they will perform in the future. :)
 
So I'd like to extend a special thanks to everyone who's paying full fare on the actively managed funds, because without you, I wouldn't be able to get a basically free ride buying the index. Cheers. :flowers:

Free ride in an index fund? Uh ok........:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
Heck, when business/economic cycles and probably some sector rotations run longer than 10 years, and each peak and trough happens for different reasons, 10 years of data isn't enough to get a feeling about how a fund might perform for the next 50 years, or even the next economic event. The managers probably had one or two big economic events to handle in the past 10 years and some of them must surely have lucked into the right choices. Just a single good sector weighting in one downturn can look great in the long term results. That is not enough data for us to tell whether they were good or lucky.

I thought one of my funds, AMAGX, performed pretty well during this downturn. But that is probably because it does not invest in financial stocks, a good allocation for the past couple of years. So its past record looks good, but the next recession probably won't ding financials quite so badly and AMAGX may be an average performer then.

I'd feel better statistically with 50-year past performance data, but then the management team would be totally different for the next 50 years. So I don't think we'll ever be able to definitively answer this question.
 
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