Alternative to Divorce?

[toofrugalformycat]

Well, I think we have come to a mutual agreement, at least temporarily..

Congratulations! You've taken a big step towards actual communication with your spouse. That must have been a scary conversation. You have guts.
Most important IMHO, you have taken responsibility as an adult for your own life choices. Caroline's post spelled it out best.
You're an inspiration to me.
And having seen the other side of divorce from a child's perspective, financially the male thrives (continued high income, rebuild assets easily), the female flounders (very hard to restart a career with a childrearing gap in there). So those laws are there for a reason.
But no one wins, and the kids lose the most.
If things get bad again, I agree with other posters, get thee to counseling.

 

[SecondCor521]

One last thought… Love and feelings aside, I still stand amazed that no one in these forums has found a way to mitigate the inherent risks that develop between a married couple when one spouse works and one doesn’t. The working spouse is essentially taking on all of the risk, especially for a man. The courts in my state appear ready and willing to give 1/2 of my past ER efforts to my spouse and a very large chunk of my future efforts through child support and alimony. The court doesn’t care if 70% of my earnings were saved during the marriage. She would be entitled to a very large piece my future earnings as the state assumes that we both had earned the money and we both had been spending it like drunken sailors during our marriage. With all the talk on these boards about diversifying and risk/return relationships, I can’t believe this one isn’t really discussed. For married men out there in a position similar to mine (who are sole providers), it appears to me that the risk of loss from current family and marriage law trump all of the other ER risks combined (especially when ER is just about to start and assets and income are both high) and there seems to be no answer (suitcases of money and archipelagos aside). Had I realized this, I may have searched for a way to have a lifetime relationship with my spouse without involving the state. Maybe a prenup would have made some sense when we both got married right out of school. I may have never even put the plan into place had I realized this risk was here, but I started the plan a while ago and now I am only about 5 years away.

I agree with you that the "divorce risk" is a very real and large risk to ER. It's probably not discussed because I would wager that more than 90% of us (even FIRE types on this board) get married naively thinking it won't happen to us, or if it does happen it won't be that bad. The rest of us (not me) get prenups, call off the wedding, or find a like-minded spouse. Those are the only things I can think of that mitigate the risk directly. Other ideas include encouraging the wife back to work ASAP after kids are born (not my favorite), move to a state that has divorce laws you think are more fair, or...?

Oh, and let me tell you something about divorce courts. They care about three things, in the following order of priority:

1. The kids.
2. The kids.
3. The kids.

They don't care about you, or your wife, or your ER, or any of her plans, either. The will not care about what either of you two think is fair (unless you agree out of court). They will also care about following the law in your state, which in turn is considered de facto fair.

Oh, I'm glad you talked to your wife. Good job. Agree with the others about the counseling, though.

2Cor521

 

[bright eyed]

HK, I am very glad you started the dialogue with your wife. I know I have been hard on you - but sometimes I have found the best way to get into a stubborn man's head is being very direct, even if it stings.

You took a bold first step. Give her time to really let it sink in and figure it out too and make sure you LISTEN.

Her aversion to therapy is troublesome - given that is her training? Sounds like avoidance to me - "we've been good coasting/avoiding, why stir the water!" There may be much more under HER surface that you may not be prepared to here and she is obviously not prepared to share.

As others have mentioned - you are still stuck on the $ issue - If you replace your disdain for the divorce laws and put "kids" where you think of "wife" - you may think of it differently - You are essentially also saying - "if someone only told me how much kids cost, I would never have had them" because the kids right now, are attached to your spouse.

In the time it takes to find a counselor - try reading "Anger" by Thich Naht Hanh - might help you cool your flames.

 

[haha]

This is a board made up of control frieks, and OP is a guy with almost no control or at least no perceived control over his life.

Yet there doesn't seem to be much compassion sent his way. Why?

De-Nile would be my nomination.

Ha

 

[W2R]

This is a board made up of control frieks, and OP is a guy with almost no control or at least no perceived control over his life.

Yet there doesn't seem to be much compassion sent his way. Why?

De-Nile would be my nomination.

Ha

Seriously, you've got a valid point there! I worked hard to gain control over my life and destiny, and maybe part of the reason I bristle at his posts is that I just feel like he needs to make an effort to do the same. I do know that nobody can do it for him, at least not the harder parts. That starts with identifying and sorting out his goals and priorities.

 

[ChrisC]

This is a board made up of control frieks, and OP is a guy with almost no control or at least no perceived control over his life.

Yet there doesn't seem to be much compassion sent his way. Why?

De-Nile would be my nomination.

Ha

No major sympathy from me because this is all within his control, so I guess I disagree with the basic premise you raise. Also, I think this is really a maturity issue, not an unfairness problem.

I've probably been through worse than the OP and I had a similar situation, with a long commute, a job I hated with tremendous stress and pressure, and a stay-at-home wife for 10 years. Sure, I felt that I was doing the heavy lifting financially in our house (and there was some resentment I harbored about that) but I looked at the roles we assigned to each other and felt content about that. It worked out best for us. I felt my wife was doing the most important job for us -- raising our children -- and undoubtedly she did a wonderful job. My children are all now happy and responsible adults.

Maybe people just need to vent on forums like this one. But I see him as blaming his wife and his job for things quite clearly under his control. I should be more understanding, but the OP's postings are almost like a whine (wah, wah) to me.

 

[RetireeRobert]

I worked hard to gain control over my life and destiny, and maybe part of the reason I bristle at his posts is that I just feel like he needs to make an effort to do the same. I do know that nobody can do it for him, at least not the harder parts. That starts with identifying and sorting out his goals and priorities.

Exactly. To which I would only add -- and identifying and sorting out his DW's goals and priorities, and thier joint goals and priorities.

No lack of compassion at ER here. Rather, several honest attempts at help giving him some outside perspective. To enable him to move forward productively. I don't think he really wants just a non-productive pity party.

 

[Caroline]

Yet there doesn't seem to be much compassion sent his way. Why?

Well, I HOPE I sent a little compassion his way... and I'd like to send a little more now that I see his wife refusing to go to counseling AND trying to control whether he goes or not.

That is not a helpful stance.

I think part of the compassion probelm involves the question of the working spouse taking all the "risk."

As a 50-year-old woman I know a LOT of other women, one generation ahead of me or in my age-range, who did not work outside the family but raised kids instead. Some of these women lost big when the divorce hit. Others stayed in very unhappy marriages because they couldn't / wouldn't get out, and lived with domineering husbands whose grip on the purse-strings gave them near total control.

My MIL was TOLD that she was moving from California to DC for 10 years, she was TOLD what house they were going to buy, she was TOLD she couldn't have a part-time job even when the kids were gone...

And my own mother was TOLD when my father was retiring -- no discussion, no debate.

So the OP's view is the EXACT opposite of mine, and apparently, many others. Many of us women deliberately stay IN the workforce to avoid putting our financial futures in our partner's hands.

 

[Spanky]

As a 50-year-old woman I know a LOT of other women, one generation ahead of me or in my age-range, who did not work outside the family but raised kids instead. Some of these women lost big when the divorce hit.

That's true if her husband had little or no assets.

Others stayed in very unhappy marriages because they couldn't / wouldn't get out, and lived with domineering husbands whose grip on the purse-strings gave them near total control.

That's too bad. It does not make any sense to stay just to have a roof over your head. If feasible, get an education and prepare to leave the relationship when the time is right.

Many of us women deliberately stay IN the workforce to avoid putting our financial futures in our partner's hands.

Good idea -- I remind my daughters periodically to focus on their education and skills development so that they can be independent.

 

[HobbyDave]

A few quick things from a 30 year old point of view, even though it does sound like you have made some good progress.

I don't like working (obvious since I'm posting here) and neither does my wife. We both have equal earning abilities. My wife has contemplated and proposed in the past changing to anther career path which would pay less. I fully supported that idea.

She also has proposed being a stay at home housekeeper type person who "might write a book or something". To that I said hell no. I know we can't afford for both of us to semi retire now, so to be fair that option is not available to either. She understands, but if I condoned it, she would quit lickety split.

You are facing a common problem. I know stay at home moms in the family who were still stay at home "moms" when their kids graduated from college. Frankly I would just love to stay home and do errands and cook, etc, but that's not fair or in the cards for me.

Thankfully my wife completely understands the whole fairness thing and agrees , since she doesn't want me quitting either.

I think its all about communication. Its not wrong for her to enjoy time with the kids, and its not wrong for you to want the workload to be even. You two just need to communicate these feelings and we if you both can come up with an equal solution. Ie, she works for 3 years, you work for 3 years, and you both retire. Or she does all the housework so you can come home and put your feet up (my parents situation, though my mom also went back to work once we were all in school full time, she rocks

 

[haha]

Or she does all the housework so you can come home and put your feet up

There are men on this board who are home, with or wthout kids because they had the money to retire and wanted to, but their wives were not quite ready either financially or emotionally. It is sometimes not completely clear.

According to posts made here, these guys are expected to keep the brass polished, the floors and bathrooms clean, and nice hot meals on the table when Madame comes home. And fix cars, maintain the house, etc.

Ha

 

[clifp]

There are men on this board who are home, with or wthout kids because they had the money to retire and wanted to, but their wives were not quite ready either financially or emotionally. It is sometimes not completely clear.

According to posts made here, these guys are expected to keep the brass polished, the floors and bathrooms clean, and nice hot meals on the table when Madame comes home. And fix cars, maintain the house, etc.

Ha

Our 20 something tour guide in Shanghai, told us that in her city with big imbalance between men and woman this is the norm. A Shanghai man needs all the Cs, Condo, Cash, Car, Cook, Clean, and Cute.

 

[Spanky]

There seems to be a whole mismatch of attitudes about money, what women's roles "should be", and men's roles "should be" between you and DW.

Agreed - clear expectations and understanding are important in any relationship. My DW (born in the Far East) still believes a man's role is to be the sole provider for the family. I am fine with that. It has not caused any conflict.

 

[Spanky]

Maybe people just need to vent on forums like this one. But I see him as blaming his wife and his job for things quite clearly under his control. I should be more understanding, but the OP's postings are almost like a whine (wah, wah) to me.

Sometimes you just want to air your frustrations. A forum is great place to do that since you might receive some sympathy.

 

[Moemg]

I have stayed out of this discussion because I have no idea what is best for you and your family. But let me at least give you the flavor of another point of view on the fairness issue. Both spouses take a risk when they decide one should work and the other raise the children. What if they decided to divorce after 10 years of marriage? The stay at home spouse has been out of the work force for 10 years. Tough to get back in and most certainly the job will not pay what it would have paid if the stay at home spouse had been working for 10 years. The working spouse at least has the security of a job. In most, if not all states, if the stay at home spouse gets maintenance it will be only for a brief period of time. Permanent maintenance is now the rare exception and most often marriages have to last at least 10 years for there to be even temporary maintenance. I would say giving up a career to raise kids is a significant risk, as significant as the risk the working spouse takes.

The division of assets? The assumption generally is for a 50-50 division. You were partners in marriage, the partnership breaks up and you each get half. No one is presumed to be more or less deserving. Probably best all in all. We used to have fault based divorce and the ugliness and cost in general outweighed any good. (Though I sure can think of a couple of examples where I would have liked to see fault taken into consideration--spouse and child abuse as an example, but I digress.)

The kids? Both spouses may very well struggle to raise the kids. The former stay at home parent, who likely will have custody as the primary care giver, will be looking for a job and having to plan how to have the kids cared for when they aren't at school or when they are ill. I had single parent employees struggle with this all the time, rarely if ever taking vacation time because time off was taken to care for kids. The noncustodial parent will have the pain of paying child care costs but with little control over how the money is spent.

Nobody wins. No one who is part of it feels that it is fair. It isn't fair, life is not the same after a divorce.

Martha ,this is a great post and very accurate . I was a divorced single Mom in my 30's and nobody wins !

 

[HK1970]

Again, thanks to all of you for the advice. It seems like this whole dialogue has frustrated some and inspired others (and made me wonder what risks Al is talking about that are present in a laddered Treasury portfolio... but that is a discussion for a different thread). For me this dialogue was a way to share my thoughts and feelings in an anonymous way and invite others to do the same. When I first posted, I wondered if anyone at all would reply. I did not expect that so many people would have responded. My overall feeling from the exchange is that the issues my wife and I are experiencing may be difficult but are not out of the ordinary.

The bottom line to me is that I simply love my wife ... That is why I named this thread, “Alternative to Divorce”, instead of something like “How to Best Get Divorced.” We may benefit from some counseling (who wouldn't?) but no matter what a counselor may say, I'd rather live together with her under a bridge than live without her and have ER'd no matter how unbalanced, one-sided or unfair things may or may not be. The thought of not having her with me, would make all the other plans (ER or otherwise) worthless. Some of you who wrote thoughtful and considerate posts helped me organize my thoughts and make my mind clearer (as opposed to unnecessarily hostile and sometimes inconsiderate posts which are easy to recognize when one is searching for some truth). Of course, speaking about these things with my wife is what provided immeasurable benefits for both of us.

Lastly, all of this made some of the stuff that not long ago seemed impossible to overcome not all that important. During the early years of our marriage, I remember thinking that I'm lucky I am older than she is and that women have a longer life expectancy. This means I will likely die before she does, which is good for me because I wouldn't want to be alive without her. The thought came into my head again today during my 96 mile commute.

It is the most pleasant thought I have had in months.

 

[Spanky]

The division of assets? The assumption generally is for a 50-50 division. You were partners in marriage, the partnership breaks up and you each get half. No one is presumed to be more or less deserving. Probably best all in all. We used to have fault based divorce and the ugliness and cost in general outweighed any good.

If it was that simple, why do couples and lawyers fight so hard and spend so much time and effort?

 

[Spanky]

HK,

Sounds like a good start. Gook Luck.

Spanky

 

[armor99]

This is a board made up of control frieks, and OP is a guy with almost no control or at least no perceived control over his life.

Yet there doesn't seem to be much compassion sent his way. Why?

De-Nile would be my nomination.

Ha

True as toasted toadstools! (two points if anyone knows about that one..). Completely correct. We are all ultimately the architects of our own lives. And if you do not rise up and claim that your life is your own, then in short order someone else will try to lay a claim on it.
As an unmariied man there are certain things that frighten me about the prospect of getting married. I have had years of horror stories from friends of mine of the trials and tribulations of marriage. Most of them for me seem workable, understandable, and seem to have room for a certain amount of give and take. But the one thing that frightens me the most is getting married and then something unexpected happens to me. I get hurt, laid off, etc. (unexpected things happen everyday). And then my wife looks at me and says... "So.... what are you going to do to fix this?" As in my only job, my only purpose in the relationship is to earn money, and that somehow if I cannot do that temporarily (through no fault of my own) that I have no value to her. I would WANT the response of my future wife to be... "Do no worry, I can go back to work for a while..... I can cut way back on spending..... we do not have to go on a vacation this year, etc". Taking the approach of wanting to help, wanting to be a part of whatever the solution might me, and willing to get involved in whatever that action might be. I have seen WAY too many relationships (and this goes both ways... men as well as women), that look to their spouse, and take the point of view that they are entitled to the lifestyle that they currently are living, and that the only job of the working spouse is to fund their lifestyle.

 

[FinanceDude]

True as toasted toadstools! (two points if anyone knows about that one..). Completely correct. We are all ultimately the architects of our own lives. And if you do not rise up and claim that your life is your own, then in short order someone else will try to lay a claim on it.
As an unmariied man there are certain things that frighten me about the prospect of getting married. I have had years of horror stories from friends of mine of the trials and tribulations of marriage. Most of them for me seem workable, understandable, and seem to have room for a certain amount of give and take.

Many folks on this board have been married longer than me (12 years), however our marriage has gotten stronger over the years due to working through "squabbles" we have had over the years.

For instance, I changed careers about 11 years ago, resulting in a 60% pay cut year one. Although she was concerned, it enabled me to have flexibility and be home when our kids were small. We worked hard at LBYM and things, and it all worked out. It was a pretty scary time, but we had 12 months expenses in cash, so I guess the fear was lessened somewhat.

But the one thing that frightens me the most is getting married and then something unexpected happens to me. I get hurt, laid off, etc. (unexpected things happen everyday). And then my wife looks at me and says... "So.... what are you going to do to fix this?" As in my only job, my only purpose in the relationship is to earn money, and that somehow if I cannot do that temporarily (through no fault of my own) that I have no value to her. I would WANT the response of my future wife to be... "Do no worry, I can go back to work for a while..... I can cut way back on spending..... we do not have to go on a vacation this year, etc". Taking the approach of wanting to help, wanting to be a part of whatever the solution might me, and willing to get involved in whatever that action might be. I have seen WAY too many relationships (and this goes both ways... men as well as women), that look to their spouse, and take the point of view that they are entitled to the lifestyle that they currently are living, and that the only job of the working spouse is to fund their lifestyle.

Most times I have seen marriages fail is when one or both partners either refuse to work it out, or there was some irreconcillable thing like an affair. "Normal married folks" have their issues, but come to agreement eventually.

Just because the divorce rate is over 50% doesn't mean folks should stay away from it.

 

[Martha]

If it was that simple, why do couples and lawyers fight so hard and spend so much time and effort?

It isn't near as much time and effort and cost as it was with a fault based divorce system. People still argue about valuations and who will get what issues. Also, non-marital property like inheritances can be an issue, but that doesn't apply to the OP.

 

[mexmeme]

That's true if her husband had little or no assets.


That's too bad. It does not make any sense to stay just to have a roof over your head. If feasible, get an education and prepare to leave the relationship when the time is right.


Good idea -- I remind my daughters periodically to focus on their education and skills development so that they can be independent.

My friends and I know 2 women in our town who were married to business men. One's husband was an attorney and the other owned his own successful business. They were both able to move their accounts around and throw the wifes out without a penny. They were both stay at home moms and housekeepers. They really had no outside activities and when the papers were served, they were blindsided. Both men had found new women. I don't know how they got away with it, but it can happen. These two women are living on very, very little now.
I think all women should know all aspects of a family's wealth. In my house I handle all of it, and have always done so, because my husband had no patience with it.

 

[madrone]

I think the most urgent factor here is your health. My father died at 39 years old - from complications of an ulcer. He lived under unbearable stress from trying to support a family of 7 (on a $4 an hour factory job). My mother was (and still is) impossible. There was no easy solution for him. But believe me - nobody gained (and nothing was made better) from his death. A body (and mind) can only take so much. At some point, something just has to give.

What I hear from your posts is that your health is at risk. Your decision to take care of yourself is a separate issue from your marriage and your finances. If you started there - who knows how the rest would unfold.

 

[RetireeRobert]

248 posts in this thread and counting. I hope to heaven the OP was no troll.

Does show though, people care.

 

[haha]

Does show though, people care.

Or that people really enjoy telling others how to live their lives.

Ha