Alternative to Divorce?

[DangerMouse]

I'm a bit late to the party, and I am not big on giving marital advice to people I don't really know. My comments are as follows:

(1) The grass is not always greener on the other side. If you trade out this wife there is a good chance you will remarry and end up in the same situation 10 years down the track with absolutely no chance of RE.

(2) Don't go thinking if your wife goes back to work life will be wonderful because you will have all that extra money coming in. Speaking from personal experience I can tell you your life will be become much more complicated. I went back to work 2 years ago and DH and I agree it was the worst thing I ever did even though we don't have kids. We gave away in effect our free time, as now we both rush around to do paperwork go grocery shopping in the few hours we have off.

(3) I do agree with some of what you say that kids don't appreciate the value of money. I think in many cases parents give their kids everything because of some perceived shortfall in their own childhood.

(4) I think all you really need to do is reconnect with your wife. Start date night once a week. Nominate a day and there is no excuse for either of you to make yourself unavailable. Go out for dinner, go to the movies, spend time together talking about everything but the kids. So many adults make the choice to put their kids first and forget about their spouses. Before anyone jumps on me for this comment, I am not suggesting neglecting the kids whilst the parents go out partying every night, but spend some time on your relationship.

 

[bright eyed]

I think we've found our troll.

or Ogre...

 

[Sandy]

I think several people suggested they go to counseling if he still loves his wife (either together or him alone) but that doesn't seem to be an option for OP for some reason. It would be valid to discuss with a counselor his feeling that they don't seem to share the same goals anymore and why or why not.

Yes, several members, including me, suggested counseling (individual and couple). OP hasn't addressed this I don't think - as if it is not an option.

Yet, given the dynamics he presents, it is likely the only option that has any chance of success here. There is significant dysfunction on both sides.

 

[RetireeRobert]

The kids are there the other days of the week and as a working parent I think I spend an average amount of time with them... maybe even above average when you include things like coaching a football team. The point of my sharing the Monday issue with the group was to point out the difficulty of finding alone time with my wife... it could have been easy if we used a couple of those Mondays to take advantage of the built in babysitting............

I was simply suggesting that I wanted more than just the average amount of time that a workaday Dad spends with his kids............

Also, why isn't trying to arrange a date with my spouse on an occassional Monday when the kids are occupied considered 'working to improve the marriage?' That was the point of my asking if she could stay home on a couple of Mondays during the year... quiet time for us............

You keep pointing out mismatches in your family as to your or your wife's or your kids' needs/wants being met or not. But you say nothing about getting professional counselling. If you are serious about solving your predicaments, go get some professional counselling. Surely you don't really think posting on this board is going to solve your difficulties?

That aside, above you say you spend "maybe above average time with your kids" But later you say you want to spend "more then the average amount of time with the kids". Get your story straight.

You ask why is trying to arrange a date with your wife not considered working on the marraige? But you seem to insist it has to be on Monday nights. Why the fixation on Monday nights, as there are six other days a week to try if Mondays do not work out. So to your way of thinking Mondays would be the logical choice. How's that working for ya? It isn't, so get dates with your wife on one or more of six other days of the week, dimbulb.

And lastly, no offense, and I know nothing about your wife's and kids' sides of the story, but from what you have said I have concluded you need to grow up and be a man. But that's only my annonymous, cyberspace, only partially-informed opinion. I could be wrong.

Cheers.

 

[FinanceDude]

You keep pointing out mismatches in your family as to your or your wife's or your kids' needs/wants being met or not. But you say nothing about getting professional counselling. If you are serious about solving your predicaments, go get some professional counselling. Surely you don't really think posting on this board is going to solve your difficulties?

Seems to me he hopes we come up with "something good"

That aside, above you say you spend "maybe above average time with your kids" But later you say you want to spend "more then the average amount of time with the kids". Get your story straight.

You ask why is trying to arrange a date with your wife not considered working on the marraige? But you seem to insist it has to be on Monday nights. Why the fixation on Monday nights, as there are six other days a week to try if Mondays do not work out. So to your way of thinking Mondays would be the logical choice. How's that working for ya? It isn't, so get dates with your wife on one or more of six other days of the week, dimbulb.

"Quiet time", or whatever folks call it, works best if there's a real babysitter that doesn't have an early bedtime", rather than kids at an activity that need to be picked up, often at an inopportune time............

 

[Rustic23]

A friend of mine told me, and I doubt it is original, you have to get your priorities right.

1st Religion, weather you believe or not you will spend the rest of eternity with your decision

2nd. Family, you will spend the rest of your time on earth with this decision

3rd. Work, it will give you the resources to do the other two.

If you change the priorities it just doesn't not work.

 

[Razor]

A friend of mine told me, and I doubt it is original, you have to get your priorities right.

1st Religion, weather you believe or not you will spend the rest of eternity with your decision

2nd. Family, you will spend the rest of your time on earth with this decision

3rd. Work, it will give you the resources to do the other two.

If you change the priorities it just doesn't not work.

I have found that people that put their religion before anything else can have big problems in their lives and relationships. That is why to me family and friends come first. It does work.

 

[Rustic23]

You may have miss interpreted what I meant. Placing Religion first does not mean you must become a religious fanatic. The fact that I think this is the right order does not mean you place Religion or Family so far above Work that you can't hold a job. You don't put Religion so far above Family that your neglect you family.

One may not believe there is a God. That's fine, and that person will live with their choice for eternity. If they are right no harm no foul. If they are wrong, well maybe still no harm. They just need to be comfortable with their beliefs.

Religion is always a hard topic. That's why it and politics makes for such poor conversations with guest. I am not sure who said it, but they were talking about the Ayatollah in Iran, when they said 'you can argue with a man who talks to God, but you can't argue with a man that believes God is talking to him.'

 

[Razor]

You may have miss interpreted what I meant. Placing Religion first does not mean you must become a religious fanatic. The fact that I think this is the right order does not mean you place Religion or Family so far above Work that you can't hold a job. You don't put Religion so far above Family that your neglect you family.

One may not believe there is a God. That's fine, and that person will live with their choice for eternity. If they are right no harm no foul. If they are wrong, well maybe still no harm. They just need to be comfortable with their beliefs.

Religion is always a hard topic. That's why it and politics makes for such poor conversations with guest. I am not sure who said it, but they were talking about the Ayatollah in Iran, when they said 'you can argue with a man who talks to God, but you can't argue with a man that believes God is talking to him.'

What I am trying to say is people that are religious or have no religion at all and put their family first can actually do better than those that put religion first. Family should come before religion.

 

[ladelfina]

For the OP's wife her kids/house/family setup may well BE her 'religion'. The OP may or may not be included in the wife's perception of this; he may even have opted himself out.. but sure as shootin' the family is not HIS religion.

For those who are religious, one hopes that family is a priority over cash, but I think Religion, with a capital "R" -in anonymous drive-by posts- best be generally left aside unless that is the agreed-upon topic at hand.

Otherwise we will get into "cleaving" and all that.
(Young'uns: avert yer eyes!)

 

[quietman]

you have to get your priorities right.

1st Religion,

Whoa!

Nothing in the OP or in the discussion since has indicated in any way that the OP has any religous issue of any kind. I think you are way out of line to chime in here and make such a broad pronouncement that we all need to put religion first in our lives.

If religion has some meaning and use for you, then please enjoy but keep it to yourself. There is no excuse for you preaching about what we should or should not do about religion. Surely you know there are just as many examples of folks who put religion "first" and caused many more problems. This is not an appropriate forum for you to inject religion.

 

[RetireeRobert]

Whoa!

Nothing in the OP or in the discussion since has indicated in any way that the OP has any religous issue of any kind. I think you are way out of line to chime in here and make such a broad pronouncement that we all need to put religion first in our lives.

If religion has some meaning and use for you, then please enjoy but keep it to yourself. There is no excuse for you preaching about what we should or should not do about religion.

Excuse me, but I didn't read where Rustic is "preaching" anything objectionable? He certainly is not telling "you" to do anything, as he was merely proferring advise to the thread OP started.

Rustic is merely advising *OP* (and OP only, he isn't telling *you* to do anything) to act in accord with OP's most basic personal beliefs of "how the universe" works---if I may use that phrase as a definition of "religion". I certainly did not read Rustic as trying to "cram" any particular creed down OP's or anyone else's throat.

So ease up friend, Rustic wasn't talking to *you* anyway. And he sure didn't make you be a member of ER forums, or force you to read this particular thread, let alone act in a certain way "religiously". The OP came here asking for advice. Rustic, like the rest of us, merely responded with his own thoughts.

(I can't wait to see you dare to offer some kind of advice in some thread.)

 

[quietman]

So the advice is for OP to adopt a religous point of view (no particular creed, it can be whatever he wants) as long as he makes sure to put it above all else? More important even than family. The suggestion is that it is of eternal importance.

I don't see this advice being helpful and in fact I think it is likely to be harmful. If you believe that your religion whatever it is, is of such supreme importance that you are empowered to do anything because it is your first priority above all else, then you can make all manner of bad decisions and cause harm to anyone else, even family, as long as you observe your religious priority. This can easily become an excuse for bad behavior.

OP issues seem to be needing to balance concerns of all those affected. Husband, wife, kids, included. Suggesting that the religous doctrine of OPs choice will dictate what to do so family is of secondary importance doesn't seem helpful and seems likely to induce bad choices.

 

[SteveR]

A friendly reminder to board members.

Religion and politics can get folks mighty upset very fast and no matter what you say you won't change their minds so let's keep the discussion civil and On Topic.

Thank you.

 

[RetireeRobert]

I don't see this advice being helpful and in fact I think it is likely to be harmful. If you believe that your religion whatever it is, is of such supreme importance that you are empowered to do anything because it is your first priority above all else, then you can make all manner of bad decisions and cause harm to anyone else, even family, as long as you observe your religious priority. This can easily become an excuse for bad behavior.

You seem trying to recast the previous poster's advice into something which I don't think he ever said. And therefore would result in none of the "bad effects" you list. It seems the very mention of "religion" raises a negative conotation with you, and you therefore read all kinds of things into the previous poster's advice which simply are not there.

At any rate, OP has free will and can chose which advice to take and which not, including your advice he ignore "religion" (whatever horrible thing that seems to conotate to you).

 

[quietman]

Do you not believe the posted advice was to "get your priorities right. Religion first. Family second. etc" ?

I am not objecting to any creed, indeed we have not specifically identified any. But I do think the advice to put religous priorities first (whatever they may be) before family priorities is wrongheaded. It seems out of place in this thread. I think it is a bad idea in general and a bad idea for OP. I'm not sure if you are arguing in favor of that advice, or just objecting to my objecting.

 

[Wags]

let's take a break and listen to the GREAT Willie Nelson (play his guitar) and Ms. Dyan Cannon, Two sides to every story
YouTube - Willie Nelson and Dyan Cannon, Two sides to every story

Mr Nelson makes that guitar talk and like I mentioned before seeing Mr. Slim Pickens in this video is worth the price of admission to heaven.

GOD BLESS

 

[ladelfina]

DYAN CANNON!?!?!? Whoa.. NELLIE! I KNOW this song for some reason.. but I don't think I ever saw this film or clip.

I don't know if this story of a nasty cheatin' DAWG is 'appropriate' to the context, Wags, my friend.. Willie's guitar may be talkin' but his A$$ is what needs to do some 'splainin. (Amy Irving .. KEEE-rist... must be the pot.) Hey.. he done busted up a 17-yr. marriage over co-star Amy (not Dyan) in real life . Men. Go figure!

[Amy made out Ok to the tune of 9 figures with Steven, so I ain't cryin' fer her, eggzackly. What happened to the other real 17+yr. Mrs. Nelson by the way side? What's the second side to THAT story?]

Willie 'n' wives are apparently not the most felicitous of combinations.

 

[kombat]

One may not believe there is a God. that person will live with their choice for eternity.

Here's the problem I have with religious fanatics: you think a person can choose what they believe. That's simply not true. One cannot choose what they believe any more than they can choose their age. It's not something you "choose." It's just something that is.

 

[kombat]

If you change the priorities it just doesn't not work.

I agree 100%.

 

[Razor]

Islamic fundementalists put their religion first. Look what a disaster that is. Religion should come after family. It does work. To say if one doesn't put religion first they will fail is just not so.

I have personally seen families that put religion before family and the family became totally disfunctional, the kids wound up on drugs, on welfare and in jail.

wcco.com - Attorney: Arguments, Money Led To Hastings Murders

According to the criminal complaint, Niedere told police he and his parents had argued a lot in recent years about issues including his desire to change churches, missing a church service because he overslept and flirting with younger girls while at church.

The Barna survey interviewed nearly 4000 adults, and indicated that 11% of the adult population is currently divorced, and 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their life time. Divorce rates for born again Christians register at 27%, which is three percent over the range of adults who are not born again.

"Nationally, 29% of all Baptist adults have been divorced," notes Barna. Slightly higher,at 34% are those in "non-denominational," independent Protestant churches.
"Among non-Christians groups the levels vary ... Jews, for instance, are among those most likely to divorce (30%) have, while atheists and agnostics are below the norm (21%). Mormons, renowned for their emphasis upon strong families, are no different from the national average (24%)." In addition, the Baby Boomers -- that generation often criticized for sexual indulgence, moral relativism and other pernicious behaviors -- has a lower rate of divorce (34%) than the preceding generation (described as "Builders"), who hover at 37%.

 

[RetireeRobert]

The Barna survey interviewed nearly 4000 adults, and indicated that 11% of the adult population is currently divorced, and 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their life time. Divorce rates for born again Christians register at 27%, which is three percent over the range of adults who are not born again.

"Nationally, 29% of all Baptist adults have been divorced," notes Barna. Slightly higher,at 34% are those in "non-denominational," independent Protestant churches.
"Among non-Christians groups the levels vary ... Jews, for instance, are among those most likely to divorce (30%) have, while atheists and agnostics are below the norm (21%). Mormons, renowned for their emphasis upon strong families, are no different from the national average (24%)." In addition, the Baby Boomers -- that generation often criticized for sexual indulgence, moral relativism and other pernicious behaviors -- has a lower rate of divorce (34%) than the preceding generation (described as "Builders"), who hover at 37%.

What of the oft cited statistics that the divorce rate in the total population is over 50%? Something with the above study result does not sound "correct". Or if the stats above by religion are accurate, then those groups are doing much better than the population at large.

 

[RetireeRobert]

Religion and politics can get folks mighty upset very fast and no matter what you say you won't change their minds.......

Paging Dave Ramsey. Paging Dave Ramsey. If you try building a career based on religion-based financial advice, you will fail. You'll just rile and upset people with the religion part.

 

[RetireeRobert]

The Barna survey interviewed nearly 4000 adults, and indicated that 11% of the adult population is currently divorced, and 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their life time. Divorce rates for born again Christians register at 27%, which is three percent over the range of adults who are not born again........

Per US Census Bureau, the above stats are a crock. 4000 is a pitifully small sample compared to sample size US Census uses.


Here is an excerpt from the Census Bureau report, with a link to the full report:

"Data in the Census report were collected from both men and women, age 15 and over, and a
different methodology was used than in the NCHS report.

"About 50% of first marriages for men under age 45 may end in
divorce, and between 44 and 52% of women's first marriages
may end in divorce for these age groups. The likelihood of a divorce
is lowest for men and women age 60, for whom 36 % of men
and 32 percent of women may divorce from their first marriage by
the end of their lives. A similar statistical exercise was performed in
1975 using marital history data from the Current Population Survey
(CPS). Projections based on those data implied that about one-third of
married persons who were 25 to 35 years old in 1975 would end their
first marriage in divorce.

"This cohort of people, who in 1996 were about 45 to 55 years old, had
already exceeded these projections as about 40% of men and
women in these ages had divorced from their first marriage. Current
projections now indicate that the proportion could be as high as
50% for persons now in their early forties."
Rose M. Kreider and Jason M. Fields, "Number, Timing, and Duration of
Marriages and Divorces: 1996", U.S. Census Bureau Current Population Reports, February 2002, p. 18.

 

[RetireeRobert]

Here's the problem I have with religious fanatics: you think a person can choose what they believe.

Who said anything about "religious fanatics"? You are the only one talking about "fanaticism" here. OP did not mention religion at all that I remember. You assume he would be "fanatical" and therefore practice some "religious beliefs" which would be detrimental to his family. You must assume he would be some kind of satanist or something?