Am I working too much?

[disneysteve]

Okay ER gurus, what say you? Am I working too much or working unnecessarily at this point?

My wife hit 59.5 in June; I just turned 59 last week.

Portfolio is $3.2 million, 60% stock, 40% bonds/cash; about 55% in taxable accounts and 45% in retirement accounts.
We have zero debt.

Annual spending is $140,000 (probably less but let's be conservative).
According to SS, if I earn $0 from now on and collect at 67 (FRA) I'll get $3,451; at 70 I'll get $4,279. My wife is eligible for SS on her own but collecting under my benefits would be better from what I understand.

I dropped to per diem status at work in August 2022. That means I pick up shifts whenever I'd like (based on availability). Since then, I've mostly been doing 8 hrs/wk. Some weeks less or none, occasionally more, but never over 12 hours. I enjoy the work especially since switching to only 4-hr shifts. If I average 8 hours/wk and work 45 weeks/year, I'll earn around 65K. I also sell on ebay and I'm on track to earn about 10K from that for the year.

The questions are:
a) Do I actually need to be working at all?
b) Would working one 4-hr shift per week be sufficient?

I do like the idea of keeping my hand in things professionally and staying active and involved and up to date educationally so I don't think I'd necessarily want to hang it up completely even if we no longer need the money.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks.

 

[bloom2708]

Well, only you can answer. $140k is more than 4% until SS kicks in. But it probably won't make much difference.

Do you have other hobbies that you would rather do than work 8-12 hours and sell stuff on eBay?

Everyone is different. When I quit, I want to quit. But, others never want to retire.

 

[Al18]

65K for 8 hrs/week and 45 weeks per year sounds like a great part time job. Your profile says you’re in NJ. Any chance I can get a part time job like that?

I hope you’re putting your off time to good use.

With the new tax rules, the eBay gig sounds like too much work.

 

[Qs Laptop]

The questions are:
a) Do I actually need to be working at all?

NEED to work? I don't think so. But it sounds like you want to work and it is a really good paying gig.

b) Would working one 4-hr shift per week be sufficient?

So if you went down to one 4 hour shift you would make a bit over $30,000 annually. Then you have about $10,000 from Ebay sales. I don't know your tax situation, but lets suppose out of the $40K income you get from working 4 hrs/week and Ebay you net $33K. This means you have to pull $117K out of your investments per year. That sounds about the magic number of 4% draw per year. I think it would be sufficient, but I would be tempted to do the 8 hours per week and pulling less money per year out of the IRA's until I was older. That's just me, though.

 

[disneysteve]

65K for 8 hrs/week and 45 weeks per year sounds like a great part time job. Your profile says you’re in NJ. Any chance I can get a part time job like that?

Are you a board certified physician? If so, I can hook you up.

With the new tax rules, the eBay gig sounds like too much work.

Assuming you're referring to the lower threshold for 1099s to be issued, that's a non-issue. That only impacts sellers who have been cheating on their taxes up until now, which I have not. I've been selling on ebay since 1997 and have filed all appropriate taxes every year as required.

 

[disneysteve]

So if you went down to one 4 hour shift you would make a bit over $30,000 annually. Then you have about $10,000 from Ebay sales. I don't know your tax situation, but lets suppose out of the $40K income you get from working 4 hrs/week and Ebay you net $33K. This means you have to pull $117K out of your investments per year. That sounds about the magic number of 4% draw per year. I think it would be sufficient, but I would be tempted to do the 8 hours per week and pulling less money per year out of the IRA's until I was older. That's just me, though.

Kind of my thinking too. The 8 hrs/wk is hardly a burden. I mostly do 9-1 on Saturday and Sunday and I'm free Monday-Friday. It's not a bad gig at all.


The 140K spending includes taxes on our current income. That would change somewhat if I worked less or not at all, though I'm not quite sure what the tax situation would look like then. It would depend partly on where we're drawing our income from.

 

[Dtail]

Are you a board certified physician? If so, I can hook you up.
.

Yeah just like my non business friends asked me to hook them up on Wall Street.

It does sound like you still like the gig, possibly irrespective of the money. Financially, I am sure Firecalc gives you 100%, even with SS starting later and being over 4% for some years.
So financially it sounds good to quit 100%, but perhaps mentally not so much.

 

[ivinsfan]

Why are you really asking this question? Does your spouse want you to quit? Are people making unasked for comments about your working?



You are highly trained and experienced, filling a need in your medical community, making good money, why is the idea of quitting even popping into your head?

 

[disneysteve]

Why are you really asking this question? Does your spouse want you to quit? Are people making unasked for comments about your working?

You are highly trained and experienced, filling a need in your medical community, making good money, why is the idea of quitting even popping into your head?

Great questions. No, my wife is fine with the status quo. We get to spend all but 8 hrs/wk together doing whatever we want to do and enjoying life. Nobody else has made any comments about me working. This was really more an academic question I suppose. Since I have no set schedule and can work as much or as little as I want to, I was just wondering if 8 hrs/wk was the "right" number. I could easily drop down to 4 hrs/wk and just might do that at least for a while to see how that impacts things. I can always go back up to 8 if I find that the money feels stretched or I just want to.

 

[disneysteve]

What I will likely do is stick with 8 hrs/wk for the next couple of months and once flu/COVID season really gets rolling, cut back to 4 for a few months until that settles down.

 

[RetMD21]

Since you enjoy it you could look at it as a hobby that makes money for you. Plus you can write off CME, MOC, licenses etc if you are get a 1099

 

[jollystomper]

8 hours a week is not much, and you seem to enjoy it. Keep working until either (a) you no longer enjoy it, or (b) you want that 8 hours back for yourself .

 

[Old Schwinn]

It sounds like you don’t need the work from a purely financial perspective. However, the work is a nice hedge against a market downturn and may allow you to sleep better if the economy tanks. How many hours a week do you need to work to stay competent? Do you think that as you age it will get more difficult to keep your skills up to date with a light workload? I fully retired from medicine a year ago at age 57 and it felt good to go out at the top of my game. I saw a lot of docs hang on too long, so I think it’s wise to put significant effort into being self aware and seeking constructive criticism from colleagues. That said, experienced docs have such great value to the healthcare team. Hopefully your younger colleagues are open to learning from your years of experience. Don’t be afraid to cut the cord completely. Retirement is glorious! I have not had a single minute of boredom and feel more engaged intellectually than when I was practicing. Best of luck to you!

 

[disneysteve]

Since you enjoy it you could look at it as a hobby that makes money for you. Plus you can write off CME, MOC, licenses etc if you are get a 1099

I'm not a 1099 employee at work, but they cover my licenses, which is another benefit to staying on. Even if I stopped working, I would want to maintain my licenses. They do not cover CME so I do get to deduct that.

 

[HI Bill]

Does your $140K include insurance costs, post-retirement? Is that actual spending, or spending including taxes? If you had to withdraw from your retirement accounts, you'd need to take out extra for taxes?

 

[disneysteve]

It sounds like you don’t need the work from a purely financial perspective. However, the work is a nice hedge against a market downturn and may allow you to sleep better if the economy tanks. How many hours a week do you need to work to stay competent? Do you think that as you age it will get more difficult to keep your skills up to date with a light workload? I fully retired from medicine a year ago at age 57 and it felt good to go out at the top of my game. I saw a lot of docs hang on too long, so I think it’s wise to put significant effort into being self aware and seeking constructive criticism from colleagues. That said, experienced docs have such great value to the healthcare team. Hopefully your younger colleagues are open to learning from your years of experience. Don’t be afraid to cut the cord completely. Retirement is glorious! I have not had a single minute of boredom and feel more engaged intellectually than when I was practicing. Best of luck to you!

Some great points.


Honestly, I think I am as good or better a physician today than I've ever been. Switching to urgent care several years ago and joining a team where we regularly discuss current treatments and guidelines and evidence-based medicine has sharpened my skills and kept me far more up to date than when I was isolated in a small private practice doing things the same way I had done them for years. I continue to attend our monthly staff meetings even though as a per diem I'm no longer required to do so (though I usually do it online from home rather than dragging myself in there at 7:30 in the morning).



My younger colleagues very much appreciate my knowledge and experience. They know I am happy to answer questions and share my expertise with them and they're very comfortable coming to me for my input.

 

[explanade]

Are there other things you'd like to do, like maybe take extended trips, which your part-time work prevents or makes difficult to do?

Otherwise, it doesn't sound like you want to stop working, at least at this pace.

8 hours a week isn't too much unless the job brings you stress or maybe something like FOMO or sense that you could be spending time in other ways that you'd enjoy more.


What would happen to health care coverage if you quit? Would you have to buy COBRA or ACA until Medicare? That might be a big expense.

 

[disneysteve]

Does your $140K include insurance costs, post-retirement? Is that actual spending, or spending including taxes? If you had to withdraw from your retirement accounts, you'd need to take out extra for taxes?

That includes everything with spending, taxes, and insurance.


Insurance is a question mark to some extent. I'm still on COBRA currently. That will run out in February I believe and we'll get an ACA plan at that point. That will reduce our monthly premium by a few hundred dollars but may also increase our out of pocket expenses. How that balances out remains to be seen.


Yes, drawing from traditional IRAs and my 401k will be taxable income but is that really any different than working and paying taxes on my earned income?

 

[disneysteve]

Are there other things you'd like to do, like maybe take extended trips, which your part-time work prevents or makes difficult to do?

What would happen to health care coverage if you quit? Would you have to buy COBRA or ACA until Medicare? That might be a big expense.

My wife and I would love to take some extended trips. Right now, it isn't my job preventing that. We help take care of my 93-year-old mother, so we're hesitant to go away for any extended period. Also, our daughter has some mental health challenges and hasn't been doing great lately so we don't really want to leave her alone for any significant time right now. So at this point in time, work is not keeping us from doing anything.


I addressed COBRA and ACA in my last post.

 

[Taco]

If it was me, getting $65K to do something I enjoy, on a very part time basis (8 hrs/wk, 45 wks/yr) - it would be a no-brainer. I'd definitely do that.

Even if I had absolutely no need for the extra $, I could find *something* to do with it. Give it away, splurge more, whatever.

Given your line of work, I could even see you enjoying life more with the part time work than without it. You are helping people. It is that "purpose" thing - why many people spend some time volunteering in retirement. You just happen to get paid well to do it.

 

[disneysteve]

If it was me, getting $65K to do something I enjoy, on a very part time basis (8 hrs/wk, 45 wks/yr) - it would be a no-brainer. I'd definitely do that.

Even if I had absolutely no need for the extra $, I could find *something* to do with it. Give it away, splurge more, whatever.

Given your line of work, I could even see you enjoying life more with the part time work than without it. You are helping people. It is that "purpose" thing - why many peope spend some time volunteering in retirement. You just happen to get paid well to do it.

Great perspective. Thanks for weighing in.

 

[Sarah S]

Sounds like you have an excellent balance. I always found urgent care fun If you decide to cut back consider 8 hours one weekend and the next off if you can. That would give you a better idea of what stopping would feel like

 

[rodi]

It sounds like you have a good balance between free time and w$&@. I volunteer a similar set if hours for zero money.

 

[2HOTinPHX]

Hello Steve,

Congrats!!! Looks like you can do anything you want at this stage..winning!!!

I started a thread with some great videos for those still on the fence. Didn't get many responses here for whatever reason. I think they are very helpful for those in your position. I hope you take a little time to watch them and let us know what you think.

https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/inspirational-videos-for-those-considering-one-more-year-118539.html

 

[Exchme]

Go to opensocialsecurity.com to get a feel for what to do with a strategy for claiming SS.

Typically the lower earner would claim at 62 and the higher earner would claim at 70. After you provide your inputs and get results, make sure you scroll to the bottom of the page and look at the chart. If you click on any spot on the chart it will show you the difference between that choice of ages and the optimum plan. Often the lower earner claim date doesn't matter much, but the higher earner claim date does as that benefit is the one that lasts after the first spouse passes.

If you want to play with the assumptions like life expectancy and rates of return, then click the box at the very top.