Americans Don’t Save for Retirement Because They Don’t Earn Enough Money

[ckelly78z]

Lots of luck going on here, IMHO. That said, your accomplishments aren't to be overlooked.

I'm not comparing my "luck" to third world countries, or the ROTW, I am comparing it to people who I have worked with at the same company for years, who sit next to me, and who had the same opportunities as I did.

 

[HFWR]

Does shaming the poor make everyone feel better?

 

[Stonewalker]

A smart phone is an absolute requirement to have a chance at independent employment in this world IMO. It can also be a distraction, but I wouldn't begrudge ensuring that a fledgling you are trying to kick out of the nest has smart phone.

I'd agree with this, but add that there are some inexpensive smart phones out there. It does not need to be an iPhone or Galaxy. Walmart has some okay ones. I got one for my son when he was out of work.

 

[marko]

The accident of birth meant that you were born in a first world country. You likely had the opportunity to attend college. You were able to live in or easily move to a large town with a solid company who needed your skills.

In my case, I was lucky enough to be born in America, to college-educated parents. I was lucky to be given education, including college. I was lucky to be born with above-average intelligence. I worked hard in college, and harder and more efficiently at my jobs. I was lucky to get my first job in the summer of '91, when almost no one was hiring (part luck, part degree, part work experience on the resume). .

"Lucky to be born in America" only goes so far. IMO, you (we) were born in a country where you have the opportunity for an early retirement, but not the right or guarantee to one. It's up to you.

I have a German friend who sent his kids to live in the US for six months because "I want them to see what it's like to live in a country where if you slack off, they let you die on the street like a dog...it will motivate them to work hard". A bit of an extreme perspective on his part but point made.

I see a growing 'woe is me' trend where a lot of things including a comfortable and early retirement is being labeled as something everyone has a right to regardless of effort put into it.

Having said all that, I don't think the whole first world/third world argument is a fair one. The homeless here might be living better than 90% of the rest of the world but that doesn't really mean much, at least to them.

 

[pb4uski]

Does shaming the poor make everyone feel better?

Being poor has nothing to do with it.... it is more living within one's means... from the tone of the posts, those who in your opinion "shame the poor" have the same distain for high earners who live above their means as low earners who live above their means... so being rich or poor has nothing to do with it.

 

[rk911]

equal opportunity with no guarantees. I firmly believe that the American Dream, whatever that means to the individual, is within virtually anyone's reach. grasshopper or ant, it's their choice.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

Although the US mantra in general tends to favor the wealthy (Wealthier not being Mega Rich in this case) over the poor. If one is born into extreme poverty, it is a lot harder to get ahead than one born into an average Middle Class family.

 

[razztazz]

equal opportunity with no guarantees. I firmly believe that the American Dream, whatever that means to the individual, is within virtually anyone's reach. grasshopper or ant, it's their choice.

Not true. Opportunity is luck and by definition is never equal. Some people's hard work "pays off". Other's doesn't. Some walk into it. Some get wiped out with a better plan and harder work. The Invisible Hand. Those with the ability and inclination to "up" their "opportunities' do so. Often by simply stealing or help from the Government making it legal. It's an advantage of unequal opportunity.

But yes, lots of people firmly believe a lot of things.

 

[pb4uski]

Although the US mantra in general tends to favor the wealthy (Wealthier not being Mega Rich in this case) over the poor. If one is born into extreme poverty, it is a lot harder to get ahead than one born into an average Middle Class family.

True, but I would suggest that it is easier for someone born into extreme poverty to get ahead in the US than most other countries in the world and there are too many cases of people who have done it to claim that it isn't possible with good decisions, hard work and a little luck or avoidance of bad luck.

Not true. Opportunity is luck and by definition is never equal. Some people's hard work "pays off". Other's doesn't. Some walk into it. Some get wiped out with a better plan and harder work. The Invisible Hand. Those with the ability and inclination to "up" their "opportunities' do so. Often by simply stealing or help from the Government making it legal. It's an advantage of unequal opportunity.

But yes, lots of people firmly believe a lot of things.

While I agree with much of what you wrote OTOH there are too many instances of people who grow up poor who become financially successful to say that the opportunity for the American Dream is dead. There will inevitably be instances of people who do the "right" things and work hard and never make it due to bad luck or one or two bad decisions... and vice versa, there will inevitably be some who succeed in spite of themselves and their decisions. But at the end of the day, IMO if you do the right things and work hard the odds of financial success are on your side... just not guaranteed.

 

[razztazz]

True, but I would suggest that it is easier for someone born into extreme poverty to get ahead in the US than most other countries in the world and there are too many cases of people who have done it to claim that it isn't possible with good decisions, hard work and a little luck or avoidance of bad luck.

Well, America is in fact and indeed better than a lot of countries. Many successful "self-maders" seem to think, and constantly crow about, how we are so much better than Third World hell-holes. Well DUH! Who isn't? That is always the comparison. The American Way is so much better than someplace a lot worse. Hard to lose that game. That is hardly a ringing endorsement.

We here have also heard of the many other First World democratic, industrial, technological countries more appropriately compared to The U.S. wherein the standard of living is better. The quality of life is better. Opportunity for social and economic advancement is better. Most if not all life-stress indicators are better. But the drawback is, ya see, their billionaires have somewhat fewer billions than our billionaires. Oh the pain of it all. How can they call themselves a free country when everybody has it better but The Rich are somewhat less rich!? I heard an economist giving a spiel somewhere and one line I remembered is: If you want to live The American Dream, move to Denmark.

While I agree with much of what you wrote OTOH there are too many instances of people who grow up poor who become financially successful to say that the opportunity for the American Dream is dead. There will inevitably be instances of people who do the "right" things and work hard and never make it due to bad luck or one or two bad decisions... and vice versa, there will inevitably be some who succeed in spite of themselves and their decisions. But at the end of the day, IMO if you do the right things and work hard the odds of financial success are on your side... just not guaranteed.

I did not intend to contradict anything you said. No place or system or population is "perfect." Perfectly good or perfectly bad. You can find people making it in the most inhospitable places. And find people losing fortunes on easy street. e.g. 1930's: Yes, some people became millionaires! 1980/1990's: Lots of people lost their shirts when just DCA into a bond fund would have paid a king's ransom over time. Soviet Union. Some lived like kings! US: Detroit. Lot's of places in Mississippi. Da Bronx And don't think they had it bad because they are all lazy and stupid. And don't think the "Successful" Soviets did it by working hard and being productive.

 

[marko]

I guess here's my bottom line:

Luck, no luck, opportunity, no opportunity, education or none; as President Kennedy once said, "Life isn't fair".

I'm fine with that. I just don't want anyone to think it's my responsibility to fill-in for their own expectations of what they think they deserve.

 

[HawkOwl]

Is physical fitness a result of virtuous habits, or good luck?

It can be argued either way. Having the discipline to work out or eat healthy when others choose self-indulgence is an absolute necessity. But it is not a level playing field- you need to be free of debilitating disease and have the luxuries of free time, money for equipment, and a neighborhood safe enough to go out in.

I choose to focus on good habits, because I have control over that. Too much emphasis on luck leads to discouragement. It leaves a person defeated before they start.

 

[Mdlerth]

Mdlerth tosses the red flag, challenging the ruling on the field

Not true. Opportunity is luck and by definition is never equal. Some people's hard work "pays off". Other's doesn't. Some walk into it. Some get wiped out with a better plan and harder work.

How is "luck" or "equal" relevant? I didn't detect any of the posters arguing that success is a deterministic equation, where you enter controllable factors and are guaranteed a predicted outcome.

However, their typical provocation is that steady saving/investing discipline, practiced over many years, has a high probability of leading to financial independence. This "opportunity" is available to pretty much everybody, and it sounds to me like a good bet. Are you suggesting it's not? If so, what alternatives would you propose?

Often by simply stealing or help from the Government making it legal. It's an advantage of unequal opportunity.

Surely there have been criminals and politicians (is this redundant?) as long as there have been people. But I'm not convinced that thievery plays a meaningful part in the success of most successful people. Perhaps you have some contrary data to share?

 

[kgtest]

comcast = thievery. They are prohibiting my success. Other than that little headwind, sails are full of potential here.

I graduated highschool with like 600 kids in my grade. If we sliced and diced the ones I know of minus the ones that left us... I'd say, 10% have passed on 10% are very successful 10% are pretty successful and the rest are getting by paycheck to paycheck with some outliers.

I'm just happy to be in the top 30% in terms of likely financial success, but who knows my perception or lens could be wrong. I always remind myself everyone is running the same race at different times. Some experience success super late in life. Is that still success since it was so late? Success is really probably a much smaller piece to the overall pie than we might think. Health, happyness, fullfillment, accomplishment, friendship, family, longevity, strength, mental health etc etc are alll part of it.

 

[razztazz]

I guess here's my bottom line:

Luck, no luck, opportunity, no opportunity, education or none; as President Kennedy once said, "Life isn't fair".

HA! Complete abdication. That's what made America great. Fact is, it depends on who's ox is being gored. And that includes you despite the bravado and illusion of self-sufficiency.

I'm fine with that. I just don't want anyone to think it's my responsibility to fill-in for their own expectations of what they think they deserve.

No, you're not fine with it. See gored ox above. As for the rest: That's called civilization. Everybody gives up something in exchange for getting more or the potential to get more. That's the expectation. It is the genetic materiel of civilization. It is responsible for everything to will ever have. You'd be less than nothing without it. Of course you can deny it and sleep better

 

[6miths]

We here have also heard of the many other First World democratic, industrial, technological countries more appropriately compared to The U.S. wherein the standard of living is better. The quality of life is better. Opportunity for social and economic advancement is better. Most if not all life-stress indicators are better. But the drawback is, ya see, their billionaires have somewhat fewer billions than our billionaires. Oh the pain of it all. How can they call themselves a free country when everybody has it better but The Rich are somewhat less rich!? I heard an economist giving a spiel somewhere and one line I remembered is: If you want to live The American Dream, move to Denmark.

Sadly, seems true.

 

[Teacher Terry]

I have seen people lose everything in mid life (house, savings and sometimes their spouse) when they get a severe disability through no fault of their own. I don’t feel sorry for people that spend all their money but many people save and a major illness wipes them out. For some reason these types of threads attract more people without empathy. Some friends of ours had a paid off house, HI, savings and retirements savings. They died broken despite him working until a year before he died. She had 8 bouts of cancer and then dementia and he had 4 bouts of cancer.

 

[ncbill]

Dude...So correct. I live in a big hat no cattle area. Everyone trying to one up one another with the latest gizmo. Had a friend facing foreclosure, sending his wife to scrub toilets, borrowing off of in-laws, taking in borders, etc while wearing the latest clothes, remodeling the house, buying expensive catered food for gatherings and spending $50 bucks at starbucks a week!

I was often referenced as being cheap and shabbily dressed. Meanwhile I was buying rentals, for which I was called crazy and an idiot, paying cash for cars and trying everything to minimize my realized income. Now the tables are turning and it is amazing the green envy of those who previously looked down their noses at us, while we enter the next phase of our lives while finally upping our lifestyle and doing the long neglected upgrades.

I try to project my public image as just getting by...I've seen too many people who lived a conspicuous, high-end lifestyle successfully targeted by some of the cleverest scammers you never would want to meet.

I'm happy to have people look down on how I dress, what I drive, etc. as I figure it keeps me from being a target for those referenced above.

 

[marko]

HA! Complete abdication. That's what made America great. Fact is, it depends on who's ox is being gored. And that includes you despite the bravado and illusion of self-sufficiency.

No, you're not fine with it. See gored ox above. As for the rest: That's called civilization. Everybody gives up something in exchange for getting more or the potential to get more. That's the expectation. It is the genetic materiel of civilization. It is responsible for everything to will ever have. You'd be less than nothing without it. Of course you can deny it and sleep better

It looks like you missed my point which was that while life isn't fair and some will come out ahead or behind despite their efforts, I don't see it as my responsibility to help contribute to an early retirement (or whatever other high expectation they may have) to those who didn't even try.

But I think you're assigning positions upon me (bravado, illusions of self sufficiency) and determining what helps me sleep that are not necessarily those that I hold.

 

[ivinsfan]

I have seen people lose everything in mid life (house, savings and sometimes their spouse) when they get a severe disability through no fault of their own. I don’t feel sorry for people that spend all their money but many people save and a major illness wipes them out. For some reason these types of threads attract more people without empathy. Some friends of ours had a paid off house, HI, savings and retirements savings. They died broken despite him working until a year before he died. She had 8 bouts of cancer and then dementia and he had 4 bouts of cancer.

TT I don't know if it's lack of empathy or wanting to be in denial. Some people want to think it can't happen to them. They want to think your friends did something "wrong" to end up in that position. You don't have to do a thing wrong to get a horrible and expensive cancer or a long term disability, but everyone wants to think it won't happen to them..

 

[gerntz]

Most political thread here allowed ever.

 

[HI Bill]

Lots of luck going on here, IMHO. That said, your accomplishments aren't to be overlooked.

I'm not comparing my "luck" to third world countries, or the ROTW, I am comparing it to people who I have worked with at the same company for years, who sit next to me, and who had the same opportunities as I did.

Understood! The way it was written, that wasn't clear. I'm with you. Many of my coworkers have earned far more than me, for far longer, and are still working at 65, 68 , 72....they didn't make the choices we did!

 

[razztazz]

TT I don't know if it's lack of empathy or wanting to be in denial. Some people want to think it can't happen to them. They want to think your friends did something "wrong" to end up in that position. You don't have to do a thing wrong to get a horrible and expensive cancer or a long term disability, but everyone wants to think it won't happen to them..

In America that's called freedom. You see life's not fair. And any attempt to make it more fair is wrong and bad. That's what I hear. People shouldn't be allowed to have any influence over the things that will affect them. That would be tyranny. Unless, of course they can afford it. Then it's OK

 

[razztazz]

Most political thread here allowed ever.

I admit it. I lost my fight to stay out of it. And I'll apologize for all my offensive remarks.

 

[Alan]

Thanks for the interesting discussion.