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Old 08-24-2016, 10:14 AM   #61
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Don't know if y'all have seen this, or if it is in any way directly related to this thread, but I think it is a really cool presentation/visualization:

I was going to post this! It's my favorite video, I use this to shut down conversations about the world going to hell/end times/build a bunker. I know I don't change their minds but at least they stop trying to sell their vacuum packed dystopia to me!
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Old 08-24-2016, 10:41 AM   #62
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I was going to post this! It's my favorite video, I use this to shut down conversations about the world going to hell/end times/build a bunker. I know I don't change their minds but at least they stop trying to sell their vacuum packed dystopia to me!
Dystopia always makes for good movies, though.
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Old 08-24-2016, 10:48 AM   #63
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I was going to post this! It's my favorite video, I use this to shut down conversations about the world going to hell/end times/build a bunker. I know I don't change their minds but at least they stop trying to sell their vacuum packed dystopia to me!

BUT, BUT, BUT..... Don't you know it is different THIS TIME!!!!


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Old 08-24-2016, 10:51 AM   #64
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I was going to post this! It's my favorite video, I use this to shut down conversations about the world going to hell/end times/build a bunker. I know I don't change their minds but at least they stop trying to sell their vacuum packed dystopia to me!
Me too, although a few people revert back to " We're going to be forced into Sharia law".

😉

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Old 08-24-2016, 04:05 PM   #65
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I think most people look back with 20-20 vision from today's standards. Sure...medicine and technology are better today than the 1700 or 1800's. Lifespans are longer now. But, I think millionaires of the past still lived a better life than millionaires of today. Think about it...the rule of law did not apply to the upper class as much as it does today. Those folks did whatever they wanted to do. They made the law. The Robber Barons of the 1800's and early 1900's really lived lavishly in a different style than the rich of today. Think of the land and empires these people owned. Look at the Biltmore Estate for instance in it's heyday. Many of these rich people may have lived shorter lives with more disease but the quality of life is what counts in my eyes.

Now try to think ahead to the future of the rich. I think the age we live in now has no reference to the future. We can only look back with tinted glasses. In the future, there will be less resources, more people, less land, and because of that probably more wars. I do realize the rich are insulated from much of this, but when resources are strained it affects everybody.

Opinions? What are my flaws? This is an interesting subject for me.
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Old 08-24-2016, 04:42 PM   #66
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...

Now try to think ahead to the future of the rich. I think the age we live in now has no reference to the future. We can only look back with tinted glasses. In the future, there [1.] will be less resources, [2.] more people, [3.] less land, and because of that probably more wars. I do realize the rich are insulated from much of this, but when resources are strained it affects everybody.

Opinions? What are my flaws? This is an interesting subject for me.
1. See Julian Simon; see also fracking, etc.
2. Maybe, although growth is tapering off pretty rapidly outside of Africa. But this has been a long term fear. See Julian Simon and Paul Erlich, "the Bet." See also number 1 (with emphasis on farming) Cf. Malthus.
3. Less land? I don't get this one.

interesting subject, for sure.
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Old 08-24-2016, 05:26 PM   #67
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Old 08-24-2016, 06:15 PM   #68
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I think most people look back with 20-20 vision from today's standards. Sure...medicine and technology are better today than the 1700 or 1800's. Lifespans are longer now. But, I think millionaires of the past still lived a better life than millionaires of today. Think about it...the rule of law did not apply to the upper class as much as it does today. Those folks did whatever they wanted to do. They made the law. The Robber Barons of the 1800's and early 1900's really lived lavishly in a different style than the rich of today. Think of the land and empires these people owned. Look at the Biltmore Estate for instance in it's heyday. Many of these rich people may have lived shorter lives with more disease but the quality of life is what counts in my eyes.

Now try to think ahead to the future of the rich. I think the age we live in now has no reference to the future. We can only look back with tinted glasses. In the future, there will be less resources, more people, less land, and because of that probably more wars. I do realize the rich are insulated from much of this, but when resources are strained it affects everybody.

Opinions? What are my flaws? This is an interesting subject for me.
A millionaire today can be anywhere in the world in 24 hours or less, flying in the sky in their own private suite. That's just one example of how yesteryear just can't compare. The richest 19th century robber barron still can only see his home town in England/Ireland/Germany once every couple years, at most.
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Old 08-24-2016, 06:53 PM   #69
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I think most people look back with 20-20 vision from today's standards. Sure...medicine and technology are better today than the 1700 or 1800's. Lifespans are longer now. But, I think millionaires of the past still lived a better life than millionaires of today. Think about it...the rule of law did not apply to the upper class as much as it does today. Those folks did whatever they wanted to do. They made the law. The Robber Barons of the 1800's and early 1900's really lived lavishly in a different style than the rich of today. Think of the land and empires these people owned. Look at the Biltmore Estate for instance in it's heyday. Many of these rich people may have lived shorter lives with more disease but the quality of life is what counts in my eyes.

Now try to think ahead to the future of the rich. I think the age we live in now has no reference to the future. We can only look back with tinted glasses. In the future, there will be less resources, more people, less land, and because of that probably more wars. I do realize the rich are insulated from much of this, but when resources are strained it affects everybody.

Opinions? What are my flaws? This is an interesting subject for me.

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Old 08-24-2016, 07:42 PM   #70
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I think most people look back with 20-20 vision from today's standards. Sure...medicine and technology are better today than the 1700 or 1800's. Lifespans are longer now. But, I think millionaires of the past still lived a better life than millionaires of today. Think about it...the rule of law did not apply to the upper class as much as it does today. Those folks did whatever they wanted to do. They made the law. The Robber Barons of the 1800's and early 1900's really lived lavishly in a different style than the rich of today. Think of the land and empires these people owned. Look at the Biltmore Estate for instance in it's heyday.
Well, it depends on the particular era. If you talk about not just the millionaire class, but the ruling class or the elite, then yes, they made the law until the peasants decided that them laws sucked. Off with their heads! Here came the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Chinese Revolution, etc...

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Many of these rich people may have lived shorter lives with more disease but the quality of life is what counts in my eyes.
I beg to differ. I am not going to trade the positive aspects of modern life for the right to sit on a throne, and order someone to make me a fancy meal whenever I want one. Nor would I want to trade off my car for getting driven in a horse carriage, or being pulled in a rickshaw. That's no quality of life!

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Now try to think ahead to the future of the rich. I think the age we live in now has no reference to the future. We can only look back with tinted glasses. In the future, there will be less resources, more people, less land, and because of that probably more wars. I do realize the rich are insulated from much of this, but when resources are strained it affects everybody...
Yes, eventually people will have to learn to do with less, as the earth resources dwindle. We certainly have a lot of excesses right now (OMG, EVs with "ludicrous acceleration"!). But the amenities people need for comfort will be more widely available for a while, compared to the period of few centuries ago as described in the OP post.
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Old 08-24-2016, 07:53 PM   #71
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But, I think millionaires of the past still lived a better life than millionaires of today. Think about it...the rule of law did not apply to the upper class as much as it does today. Those folks did whatever they wanted to do. They made the law. The Robber Barons of the 1800's and early 1900's really lived lavishly in a different style than the rich of today.
The rule of law doesn't seem to apply to most of the ruling class. I know we can't get political, but there are far too many instances of certain politicians breaking the law seemingly at will with no repercussions for their actions.

No matter how good the ruling class had it back then, they didn't have central heating or cooling, plumbing, running water, or even ice cubes for their drinks. All travel was by horse, boat, or train, and a letter took weeks or months to get to the destination.
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Old 08-24-2016, 10:01 PM   #72
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Very interesting observation Braumeister! Thanks for the reality check.


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Old 08-24-2016, 10:05 PM   #73
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Would anyone trade being alive today with 1-2 million to go back and be a billionaire robber baron, but live in the 1900s-1930s and all their problems?

I wouldn't.


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Take a tour of say the Biltmore and see how they lived. Think Downton Abbey in the USA on 1000 acres of prime land with semi-annual voyages to Europe to keep abreast of the latest fashion. Yeah I'd give up my flatscreen and cell phone for that. You could actually enjoy a good novel or two.


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Old 08-24-2016, 10:19 PM   #74
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I do not know why people are comparing a millionaire with the robber barons or the ruling class... these people had much more than a million...

I wish I could find out the net worth of some of them, but here is a line in Carnegie in wiki...
He built Pittsburgh's Carnegie Steel Company, which he sold to J.P. Morgan in 1901 for $480 million

Also...

After selling Carnegie Steel, he surpassed Rockefeller as the richest American for the next couple of years, reaching a personal net worth of US$310 billion


Now, that was 1900 dollars...
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Old 08-25-2016, 12:57 AM   #75
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No, it was in today's dollars. The same Wiki article has a summary box that says "Net worth: US$309 billion in 2007 dollars, according to Forbes".

That's still 4X Bill Gates' net worth, which is the highest in the world at $75B.
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Old 08-25-2016, 05:12 AM   #76
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Yes, eventually people will have to learn to do with less, as the earth resources dwindle.
I'm not sure about that aspect as driving force for less availability. Every atom 'used' is still here, it's a matter of getting even better at rearranging them.

No easy feat, yet all it really needs is energy and people ingenuity, we're getting much better at that all the time. And with a great nuclear fusion reactor in the sky we're not running out of energy anytime soon.

Demographics can be a thing, although we already reached peak child on the inflow side. The biggest trend to fight (besides black swams like epidemics and meteors) is on the outflow side: aging badly.

Bunch of dementing, frail and useless elderly (of which I would be one) supported by dwindling youth can throw us off the deep end. Unclear how that will evolve, Japan and Germany are giving us the 'best' sneak peek right now and in the coming years.

The only unsolvable issue is less land per person with each person. Before that really becomes a problem we'll need to go x3 or x5 though. Still a ways off whatever growth or aging scenarios prevails.
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Old 08-25-2016, 08:54 AM   #77
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No, it was in today's dollars. The same Wiki article has a summary box that says "Net worth: US$309 billion in 2007 dollars, according to Forbes".

That's still 4X Bill Gates' net worth, which is the highest in the world at $75B.

Sorry... I had typed that before I added his total net worth... I do think the purchase price was the 1900 dollars...
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Old 08-26-2016, 05:58 AM   #78
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Good points about the rich of past. Some things to think about. Hmmm...A comfortable rolling voyage on a ship vs an airplane ride of today. Things were different for sure.
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Old 08-26-2016, 05:12 PM   #79
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And prior to the 20th century even in the most affluent countries one could expect to lose half of one's children and have about a 50/50 chance of losing one's DW in childbirth. Being rich helped a bit but not much, especially on the maternal mortality.
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Old 08-26-2016, 07:05 PM   #80
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No......but I'm happy
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