Finance Dave
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2007
- Messages
- 1,861
Agree, thanks ERD.It does not seem to support the idea that the rich ever stopped paying taxes, or that the middle class is bearing the burden.
-ERD50
Agree, thanks ERD.It does not seem to support the idea that the rich ever stopped paying taxes, or that the middle class is bearing the burden.
-ERD50
The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data
Summary of Federal Individual Income Tax Data, 2006
The top 10% pay 70% of fed income taxes.
The top 50% pay 97%, leaving only 3% paid by the lower 50%.
Sorry, not trying to turn this into a SoapBox issue, but if we are going to discuss the economics of this, we need the numbers. I'm not declaring those numbers 'fair' or not, but there they are. It does not seem to support the idea that the rich ever stopped paying taxes, or that the middle class is bearing the burden.
Specific to the bailout of auto cos - I don't know enough to know what is right, but I sense some orderly dismantling might be needed. An outright bailout would just be rewarding bad behavior. Do nothing may hurt too many. Either way, some people are going to get hurt in the short to mid term. GM can't be competitive and carry the mentioned $8000 per car in benefits. Something has got to give.
-ERD50
The top 10% pay 70% of fed income taxes.
The top 50% pay 97%, leaving only 3% paid by the lower 50%.
Not to argue with your basic point, which I agree with, but these numbers are not correct because they do not include FICA. I know that this is not a "tax," but if it quacks like a duck ...
I read one report that 3 million jobs (adding suppliers, auto dealers, related industries) could be at risk if the domestic auto manufacturers fail, so obviously that can't happen.
I'm highly skeptical of these figures. The big three only employ about 240,000 people . . . getting to 3MM unemployed is a huge, huge, stretch. The first faulty assumption that I think people are making to get here is to assume that bankruptcy means the companies shut down completely. More likely they'll file Chapter 11 and continue to operate in bankruptcy. What WILL happen though, is the bankruptcy court will get to take a look at all the contracts, including the labor deals, and can use a very heavy hand in squishing down costs to within expected revenue. I imagine that is to be avoided at all (political) costs.
Is income even a measure of wealth?
I can see where a re-structuring specialist could put together a package in which the gov't does the DIP financing, the stockholders are wiped out, the bondholders get equity instead of debt, the execs get replaced, the workers lose benefits but not jobs, and someone can make a credible case to the customers that the company has been "saved" for at least 10 years (long enough that you don't have to worry about owning an orphan).
It is a rape of the taxpayer for the benefit of corporate greed. At least Obama will make the rich start paying taxes again (I hope). Otherwise the middle class will carry the whole load for generations to come.
I had a thought that doesn't bode well for the auto industry no matter what the government does to help 'em out.
Who would be buying a "new" car anyway with all the doom-and-gloom going on. Nobody has to buy a "new" car. Esp right after they got half their 401k wiped out. There are used cars enough around to last quite a few years.
....
I was hoping to see that Chevy 'VOLT' become a success - maybe a small part of GM could succeed as Saturn, with the VOLT in their portfolio of vehicles? Of course, if we have $2.xx gas for a few more years, there won't be much demand for expensive plug-ins.
-ERD50
I agree....I told my Congressman to vote agains the bank bailout also..and he did. Rep. Mike Pence, Indiana.I am not sure why it is alright to bail out the banks but not the auto companies.
But if he bails them out, won't he be essentially giving a break to those "fat cat executives" at the Big3? Which is exactly what he criticized GW for doing.They will be bailed out. BO will see to that. The auto unions supported him and he will return the favor. Thats the way it works.
One thing I have not seen anyone mention is the fact that GM is off loading there healthcare benefits to the union in the next year or so. Isn't this the kind of new business model you guys are talking about. I am not sure why it is alright to bail out the banks but not the auto companies. Last time this was done the goverment got repaid and the company lasted for another 30 years.
Granted I am bias I live in Michigan. However do not work for the auto industry.