"Be happy in your work"

[Nords]

That's what my FIL usually says to me when he visits on our back lanai with a frosty beverage and sees me hacking weeding my way out of the jungle back yard. I usually say that it beats having to chase a paycheck, and he raises a toast.

But we reconnected yesterday with a friend who really is happy in his work. I first met him seven years ago when he started in the admin office of my last command. He joined the Navy out of high school in the '80s, became a cook, volunteered for submarines, and did so well that his shore duty was in the Pentagon running SECDEF's mess. He left active duty in the early '90s but stayed in the Reserves. He was actually fired from our command's GS-5 starter job (have you ever heard of a federal civil-service employee getting fired?!?) but he landed a Hawaii civil-service job in an admin office.

Since then he's: made Chief Petty Officer in the Reserves, been promoted in his state jobs a couple times, gotten married to a nice lady, fathered two kids, started & finished both his bachelor's & master's degrees at night school, bought a house, sold it for a bigger house, and been accepted for a Reserve officer's commission. He's in his high 30s.

His kids are 3 & 1 but they wanted to live in a neighborhood with a nicer school, so they sold their house for $435K (bought in 2001 for $235K) and bought a brand-new 4BR for $585K. By the time he finishes it off (landscaping, sidewalks, gutters, modifying the floor plan) they'll have another $25K into it. His elderly mother-in-law is living in the new house with them (free childcare!). His wife just made CFO of a small local business.

He took a week off from work to watch the contractors and to finish the garage interior. They move in next week. We started talking money while we were slinging paint and... they actually get it! They raised their equity in the new home to keep their mortgage payment about the same as 2001, and they're making extra mortgage payments. They LBYM, they fully fund their 401(k)s & IRAs, they save about 20% of their take-home pay in mutual funds, they're saving for the kids' colleges, they're doing fine. It is exceedingly rare for us to have this type of conversation with ANY of our friends or neighbors, let alone people in their 30s.

Spouse asked him "So, you'll be ready to retire in 10-15 years?" and he asked "Why would I want to do that?!?" He sees himself climbing the Reserve officer ranks until he's 60 and working in the state govt until he's at least 65. His wife figures that she'll either be running her own business in 10-15 years or working at one of the state's top 10 companies (maybe both). Neither of them plans to stop.

Keep in mind that at age 60 he'll have not one but two DBPs with COLAs and lifetime TRICARE. His spouse will probably have her own pension kick in when she's 65. They'll also have two 401(k)s, two IRAs, a mortgage-free home, an empty next, and their other savings. Either one of them could easily hang it up now and raise their kids. Or both of them could ER in 10-15 years and consume savings until the pensions kick in. But with no childcare hassles, plenty of income, and interesting jobs-- they see no reason to quit anytime in the next 25 years. They're not worried about what they'd do all day, but they're having too much fun to stop what they're doing now.

He sounds like he's found his avocation (his spouse is sure that she's found hers!) and I must admit to a little envy. We'll be celebrating their housewarming in a few weeks, and I'm sure we'll be helping each other with many future home improvement projects. It'll be interesting to see how things turn out over the next 20 years. If I was in his shoes I doubt I'd consider ER either.

But I think I'll have to teach him how to surf.

[Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords That's what my FIL usually says to me when he visits on our back lanai with a frosty beverage and sees me hacking weeding my way out of the jungle back yard.* I usually say that it beats having to chase a paycheck, and he raises a toast. But we reconnected yesterday with a friend who really is happy in his work.* I first met him seven years ago when he started in the admin office of my last command.* He joined the Navy out of high school in the '80s, became a cook, volunteered for submarines, and did so well that his shore duty was in the Pentagon running SECDEF's mess.* He left active duty in the early '90s but stayed in the Reserves.* He was actually fired from our command's GS-5 starter job (have you ever heard of a federal civil-service employee getting fired?!?) but he landed a Hawaii civil-service job in an admin office. Since then he's:* made Chief Petty Officer in the Reserves, been promoted in his state jobs a couple times, gotten married to a nice lady, fathered two kids, started & finished both his bachelor's & master's degrees at night school, bought a house, sold it for a bigger house, and been accepted for a Reserve officer's commission.* He's in his high 30s. His kids are 3 & 1 but they wanted to live in a neighborhood with a nicer school, so they sold their house for $435K (bought in 2001 for $235K) and bought a brand-new 4BR for $585K.* By the time he finishes it off (landscaping, sidewalks, gutters, modifying the floor plan) they'll have another $25K into it.* His elderly mother-in-law is living in the new house with them (free childcare!).* His wife just made CFO of a small local business.* He took a week off from work to watch the contractors and to finish the garage interior.* They move in next week.* We started talking money while we were slinging paint and... they actually get it!* They raised their equity in the new home to keep their mortgage payment about the same as 2001, and they're making extra mortgage payments.* They LBYM, they fully fund their 401(k)s & IRAs, they save about 20% of their take-home pay in mutual funds, they're saving for the kids' colleges, they're doing fine.* It is exceedingly rare for us to have this type of conversation with ANY of our friends or neighbors, let alone people in their 30s. Spouse asked him "So, you'll be ready to retire in 10-15 years?" and he asked "Why would I want to do that?!?"* He sees himself climbing the Reserve officer ranks until he's 60 and working in the state govt until he's at least 65.* His wife figures that she'll either be running her own business in 10-15 years or working at one of the state's top 10 companies (maybe both).* Neither of them plans to stop. Keep in mind that at age 60 he'll have not one but two DBPs with COLAs and lifetime TRICARE.* His spouse will probably have her own pension kick in when she's 65.* They'll also have two 401(k)s, two IRAs, a mortgage-free home, an empty next, and their other savings.* Either one of them could easily hang it up now and raise their kids.* Or both of them could ER in 10-15 years and consume savings until the pensions kick in.* But with no childcare hassles, plenty of income, and interesting jobs-- they see no reason to quit anytime in the next 25 years.* They're not worried about what they'd do all day, but they're having too much fun to stop what they're doing now. He sounds like he's found his avocation (his spouse is sure that she's found hers!) and I must admit to a little envy.* We'll be celebrating their housewarming in a few weeks, and I'm sure we'll be helping each other with many future home improvement projects.* It'll be interesting to see how things turn out over the next 20 years.* If I was in his shoes I doubt I'd consider ER either. But I think I'll have to teach him how to surf.

I was trying to only show the quote regarding him getting fired from a GS-5 starter job and have you ever heard of a federal civil-service employee getting fired? I started my Federal civil-service career working for the DOD at Lockbourne AFB in Columbus OH. I was a very naive, shy 20 year old. I was teased quite a few times. Anyway, they kept talking about this certain guy (I don't remember his name) that worked there, but I had never seen. I did not believe that this person worked there, since I had never seen him, and thought that the older GI's were just teasing me again. Several weeks, maybe even months later, he showed up. He had been AWOL the whole time. Needless to say, he was fired. There was also another time on the AFB that an older civilian lady who was having a bad day, stood up and ripped her blouse open in front of many guys who were waiting to get their supplies. I was not at work that day, but I guess it created alot of mayhem in the office. I think that she went out on a disability!!

I can remember asking my boss within the last 5-7 years ago if he was thinking of retiring. He said no, why would he want to do that. He was having fun at work and besides what would he do all day not working. He felt this way, until the last year and all of a sudden, he decided to retire in 05/05. They talked him into staying until 09/30/05. He was ready to go yesterday and was planning on traveling for the next 6 months and then possibly going to Guatemala to teach English as a second language. He turned 60 in 09/05.

It is hard to predict if your friend will keep working or if all of a sudden he changes his mind and decides there are better things to be doing with his life!

Dreamer

I've always loved programming. From the first time I programmed a teletype machine to print out a face to my recent projects, the thrill has been the same.

Unfortunately, the bad parts of programming take away from this fun. The stupid Microsoft routines that you have to deal with, the literally millions of different machine configurations that you have to worry about, poor documentation, etc.

If it weren't for these things, I'd never retire.

[Spanky]

It seems hard for government employee to quit since the longer they stay the more benefits they will receive. Why quit now when you can always do later with more benefits?

[retire@40]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanky It seems hard for government employee to quit since the longer they stay the more benefits they will receive. Why quit now when you can always do later with more benefits?

That could be said about any job. The more you work, the more you make.

[Spanky]

That's true. However, the government pension gets more attractive as the number of services increases.

[brewer12345]

That's definately not me. *If a couple million bucks fell into my lap today, I'd go back to work long enough to wind things up, but only because I have great personal regard for the man who hired me.

My dad, OTOH, is a very different story. *The guy has a GED and, God bless him, doesn't read all that well, but he has been a self-made millionaire twice. *When I was a teenager, he was the majority owner of a multimillion dollar wholesale and retail fish business that he originally started in cutting fish. *They expanded at exactly the wrong time (with leverage) and the business went bust in the early 90s. *Fortunately, one of dad's friends was a wholesale jeweler in the NY diamond district (heh, I will tell you about the one-eyed Spanish jeweler some time, fascinating guy). *So dad started up from scratch again at about the age of 50, which makes me quiver just thinking about it. *Instead of selling fish, he started selling jewelry to retain clients. *Gues what? *He's a millionaire again.

I have told him that he could easily afford to retire. *Not interested. *He literally wouldn't know what to do with his time. *Outside of selling jewelry, his only real pastimes are fishing, gambling at Atlantic City & Las Vegas, and the television. *The idea of retiring is not comprehensible to him. *On one hand, I somewhat feel sorry for him that he cannot see all the amazing things in this world that you could spend your time experiencing or just seeing. *OTOH, I suppose he is very lucky in that he truly enjoys his daily life.

Ultimately, we are all made the way we are made, and I guess we are lucky if we can find a good place to be.

[wabmester]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl Unfortunately, the bad parts of programming take away from this fun.* The stupid Microsoft routines that you have to deal with, the literally millions of different machine configurations that you have to worry about, poor documentation, etc.

Have you done any web-based dev, Al? Load your favorite Linux distro onto a box, choose your favorite language, and code to your heart's content. The web doesn't really care what hardware or software your clients are running. Your only real concerns are uptime, scalability, and security. It's really heaven compared to those nasty Win32 APIs.

[MJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brewer12345 The idea of retiring is not comprehensible to him. On one hand, I somewhat feel sorry for him that he cannot see all the amazing things in this world that you could spend your time experiencing or just seeing. OTOH, I suppose he is very lucky in that he truly enjoys his daily life. Ultimately, we are all made the way we are made, and I guess we are lucky if we can find a good place to be.

I guess your Dad's work gene hasn't started to disintegrate yet. Give it time, maybe when he reaches 90, it may start.

[Spanky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wabmester Have you done any web-based dev, Al? Load your favorite Linux distro onto a box, choose your favorite language, and code to your heart's content. The web doesn't really care what hardware or software your clients are running. Your only real concerns are uptime, scalability, and security. It's really heaven compared to those nasty Win32 APIs.

We develop Java apps under Linux for products but still use Windows for internal desktop.

[Jarhead*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davew894 when you reach 65-70 you'll be old and miserable anyway, regardless of what you saved during your 'working years.'

Dave894: *Thanks, I needed that.

Where'd you go Charlie, I could use some help on this one.

The market on being miserable hasn't been cornered by any particular age group. What i have found is that as you age, your basic personality stays pretty much in tact. *If you take yourself too seriously and have no sense of humor at age 40, you aren't going to be the life of the party at 65 or so. *And Visa-Versa.

Most of the young people on this board will be my age sooner than they think. *(Time has a way of speeding up as you age).

This may sound dillusional to you, but for me personally, and my wife, and most of the other "Old Pharts" that I play golf and fly-fish with these have been the best of times.

The pressure and responsibility of raising a family and handeling career problems are a distant memory. (While I can't remember being particularly "miserable", I think the closest I came was in my mid 30's, with a young family, and the Corp. I worked for went belly-up).

While it's somewhat true that getting older isn't for "sissies", but taken as a whole, I highly recommend it.

Take Care, Jarhead

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanky It seems hard for government employee to quit since the longer they stay the more benefits they will receive. Why quit now when you can always do later with more benefits?

After 20 years in the military you're eligible for a pension of 50% of your base pay. IOW you really have to enjoy your work to do it for half of your base pay.

After 30 years you're doing it for 25% of your base pay. Luckily the pension % tops out there or some flag officers would never hang up their stars. (Grace Hopper. Hyman Rickover.) ADM "Fox" Fallon, currently PACOM, is turning 61 and will need Congressional permission to stay in uniform past age 62. (I wonder if he'll start collecting Social Security at that age!)

The problem is that somewhere after the 20 years you're dead and you won't collect any more benefits (but your survivors might!). The trick is determining exactly when that'll happen and retiring early enough to maximize the reward/risk ratio.

Luckily the rules required me to retire when I did. But when I retired a few months after 9/11, many were requesting extensions "for the good of the service" (IOW, "I don't have enough savings, the stock market sucks, and I don't want to look for a new job") which literally required Congressional authorization. Of course if you received an extension you were volunteering for worldwide assignment anywhere anytime. My XO offered to help me out with one of those extensions and he couldn't understand why I reflexively recoiled in horror...

[Dreamer]

Ex-Jarhead,

I agree with what you said. I deal with many 65-70 year old and they do not seem that much older than me-I'm 52. The majority of them seem to be enjoying life just fine, unless they have an older parent that they are caring for with everyday needs and health problems. The majority of 65-70 year olds are traveling and having a good old time with their hobbies!

Dreamer

[ESRBob]

Nords,
I think some people do like their work, and the whole lifestyle that goes along with it. For them, I say, 'bravo' and they should ignore all us early retirement types. But most people I know in the work world are just making the best of a bad situation, and would love to hang up their spurs and try being a trout bum ore even starting a second career doing something they love but which pays bumkiss. Still, you won't always get people to admit that -- being a prisoner isn't made easier by having to face up to the reality of it -- much better to find the fun in whatever you're stuck doing anyway. Heck, if I had to work full time, I'd try to crank up my enthusiasm for it any way possible, too.

Some people like having a finish line in sight, though. I guess they find their way here and learn to save more and count the years down.

Still I'm happy for your friend that he's OK with his life and still find myself wondering how he ever got fired from an entry level govt job?

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESRBob Still I'm happy for your friend that he's OK with his life and still find myself wondering how he ever got fired from an entry level govt job?

Welcome back, Bob! Are you expected to go on a book promotion tour?

It was mostly a case of Dr. Jekyll to his boss and Mr. Hyde to everyone else, including people from other commands who fed back their experiences to his boss. I don't know if the rules are the same today, but back then the first year was considered probationary and that's all he got. He learned a lot from the firing...

[ESRBob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords Welcome back, Bob! Are you expected to go on a book promotion tour?

In the early weeks, it is mostly it is talking to journalists and then doing lectures and parties/signings locally. Early retirees are a scattered lot, and it's not that clearly a good use of the publisher's time/money to sed me off to a random B&N for a booksigning, but we'll see. They keep talkng about Oprah, but my sense is that anybody famous like that is a workaholic (I mean, if anybody could ER, Oprah could!) and they don't always get ER.

Keep fingers crossed... maybe the trend du jour of lots of boomers leaving the workforce could get some journalists thinking that ER is going to aggravate it and the controversy in that will at least get them talking.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESRBob They keep talkng about Oprah, but my sense is that anybody famous like that is a workaholic (I mean, if anybody could ER, Oprah could!) and they don't always get ER.* *

I think Oprah would slice any ER author to ribbons. Dave Ramsey got across her breakers (his fault) and she jumped right down his throat.

She sees her tremendous earnings (and spending) as giving her the power to change the world, once kid at a time in any country. ER'ing would cut off the cash flow to achieve global domination help people, which implies that ERs are "giving up".

So I think she'd take it personally...

[TargaDave]

I am always inspired by people like Nord's friends or Brewers dad. The inspiring thing isn't the wealth or FI, it's more about the positive outlook you can sense that these people have. Helps to counteract all the megacorp cynics out there.

[Outtahere]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TargaDave I am always inspired by people like Nord's friends or Brewers dad.*

I always wonder what they found that eludes me. Is it the attitude? Is it the profession? I can't say I'm unhappy but that "excited to go to work" feeling just isn't there, never has been.

C____

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outtahere I always wonder what they found that eludes me.* Is it the attitude? Is it the profession?* I can't say I'm unhappy but that "excited to go to work" feeling just isn't there, never has been.* C____

Same here. I'm happy for them but I just don't get it.

OTOH my spouse just finished her latest Reserve weekend during which all the new people reported to the unit. She was asked at least a dozen times "But waddya DO all day?!?" Now she wants a video or at least a PowerPoint brief. Sure, and I'm all over it!