I took a peak at your intro post. I think you will find it is easy for the lifestyle "creep" to take hold, especially with kids... those little suckers can cost some dough! Sports, cars, insurance, college, etc... all can make your spend rate go up. I am in my young 50's with 4 kids, DW has been a Domestic goddess since kid 1 was born (27 yrs ago), but we started very modest living within the $50k range (granted, it was about 29 yrs ago), but with 2 kids in college still, our creep has my current annual budget at $350k (taxable), and that is with only a small mortgage I debate about paying off. Honestly, we are living well, but not rediculously execessive. Once I RE in 2 - 3 yrs when last kid graduates, I am planning for a RE budget of around $250k - $275k/yr (Taxable). It will be easier than you think to raise your spending bar which may give you a little pause before pulling the plug with a lucrative income.
Beyond FI but before RE - Increase experience spending?
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I took a peak at your intro post. I think you will find it is easy for the lifestyle "creep" to take hold, especially with kids... those little suckers can cost some dough! Sports, cars, insurance, college, etc... all can make your spend rate go up. I am in my young 50's with 4 kids, DW has been a Domestic goddess since kid 1 was born (27 yrs ago), but we started very modest living within the $50k range (granted, it was about 29 yrs ago), but with 2 kids in college still, our creep has my current annual budget at $350k (taxable), and that is with only a small mortgage I debate about paying off. Honestly, we are living well, but not rediculously execessive. Once I RE in 2 - 3 yrs when last kid graduates, I am planning for a RE budget of around $250k - $275k/yr (Taxable). It will be easier than you think to raise your spending bar which may give you a little pause before pulling the plug with a lucrative income.
Danmar
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This is good advice and reflects my experience. You can always use a little more, although eventually you have to put a pin in it. Doesn't sound like you are anywhere near that point yet.
For me, and I would assume others, finishing the heavy lifting before you launch RE (i.e. Get gets thru college, knock out a wedding or 2), has been my main marker. Once you've the kids off the payroll I think it is easier to reflect back and look forward and plan for a more reliable desired burn rate for when you do RE. I know there are plenty of exceptions, but I always thought it was too risky to retire with multiple young kids to pay for thru life.
We have 2 kids both about to hit middle school. I'd say that without them we'd be running about $40k, which is easy to do because our house and cars are paid off. So our kids are adding 50% to our costs with their school meals, after school sports, cloths, etc. For college, we have about $100k each and we'll cover any remainder from investments, so I anticipate a spike here, no doubt. Frankly I struggle to find the balance of providing for what they need but keeping them hungry for when they grow up.
I could imagine spending more than $200k-250k a year with three actions: if we moved to a HCOL area, bought a similar sized home for $2.5-$3M, have our kids go to private school, and DW and I leased two 5 series BMWs. Then we'd be uncomfortably close.
I can't imagine our life style going anywhere this level. This life style creep is one of my innate fears being on the FIRE journey for so long.
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Danmar
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I guess there is two types of "lifestyle creep". The kind that isn't intentional and uncomfortably increases your SWR and the kind that is intentional and fully supportable by your means and adds enjoyment or excitement to your lifestyle or helps others. We should be careful to differential these.
We have had some discussion here recently concerning those that would like a little "lifestyle creep" but just can't do it.
We have had some discussion here recently concerning those that would like a little "lifestyle creep" but just can't do it.
Meadbh
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
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But what would be wrong with the lifestyle you just described, if you were still LBYM? Would you feel guilty for some reason? What if you could greatly enhance your children's chances of success in life by paying for private school, or by paying college tuition, or even supporting them through graduate school? What if (God forbid) some terrible accident occurred and one of your family had severe brain injury, needing round the clock care? What if you develop a passion for volunteering and discover a cause that really could benefit from your funds? There are many potential opportunities to increase your spending, and feel good about it.
True. I think Danmar and Meadbh are implying a similar concept, which is to find intentional lifestyle creep that adds more value (or need/protection) to our lives. For me, I'm contemplating intentional lifestyle creep to travel more. What I'm hearing from this wise crowd is that this is ok 
Ready
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I'm curious - what type of things are you spending your money on to get your budget up that high once your kids are out on their own?
audreyh1
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Yeah - I think of a chunk of our nest egg as potential "disaster relief" in case something terrible happened to close family and we could help out.
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Congratulations on your "problem." You are doing great! I like your idea of increasing your travel budget, that's a good place to start. No need to go from 0 - 60 mph in 2.5 seconds. I would not feel compelled to spend your whole salary now and keep your savings flat thinking that you will go back to your old lifestyle and reduced spending upon your retirement. "How are they going to keep them down on the farm, once they've seen gay Paris?" You may easily retire at 50 or 55 with (by that time) your spacious condo on a Hawaiian beach, and a second home on the mainland. Of course by that time you will be used to traveling first class; and oh, eventually in addition to helping the grandkids with college, you may be flying the grand kids out to visit, or taking the whole family on vacation. In other words, consider enjoying yourself now, and also making a plan to allow you to continue your upgraded lifestyle in retirement. (You also don't know what the future holds, healthwise, etc. )
My mother recently casually told the salesperson at an assisted living facility her net worth. I thought this was a mistake, because (1) loose lips sink ships, and (2) the nail that sticks up gets hammered down.
I'm a fan of the small hat, big cattle lifestyle. How small is too small? I haven't figured that out yet.
iloveyoga
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So very true, I love Monday mornings when everyone drives off to work!!
I suppose the point I was trying to make is until you have run through the sport years, driving years, college years, and throw in a few weddings, and oh, I have worked hard and deserve a few things years... and still are putting away $$ and LBYMs, it's easy to see the creep move you along to a lifestyle you might actually enjoy or want to sustain in RE. I'm not suggesting it's a need, but if you have done the work and can support a certain lifestyle, that's ok. I think just about everyone on this site has a frugal gene in them as that is how they got here. At the same time, I think it is ok to enjoy the fruits of your labor and not feel guilty.
To answer your question directly... we enjoy a good meal, good wine, a nice car, travel, my DW likes nice shoes (ouch!). None of it is necessary and honestly, if the wheels fell off tomorrow, I would be fine in my Tshirt and shorts and a Bud Lite.... but, I am (have) applied the principles everyone discusses here and have learned/taught and in some cases, pushed my self against my frugal nature, to enjoy a few things in life. But that's just me....
Ready
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I was really just curious, as we have struggled to increase our consumption even though we can afford to. I was looking for some ideas.
We have been doing a bit of house renovation stuff, which we can easily afford...and I have to remind myself daily that we can afford it so that it doesn't drive me crazy to see how much it all cost, actually.
Good for you! Enjoy it while you can. DH & I have a high travel & entertainment budget (at least it is much higher than pre-ER) and believe in enjoying these activities while we're relatively young and healthy. We figure at some point we won't be able to do the adventure travel we now enjoy, and we are already at the point where if we don't carefully manage food and wine consumption, we gain weight. Go for it and enjoy spending your money! Travel, dining out, concerts/live theater, and home improvement projects can help anyone "blow that dough" as Robbie would say.
Koolau
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
I think that's where we find ourselves. When we retired, we probably doubled our cash burn - and it felt okay because everything was more or less "in the plan" for FIRE. Of course, a big reason we could double cash burn was because, for years, we had been saving that other half (roughly.)
The other reason we feel comfortable in upping the cash burn is that it seems "worth it." Our biggest "extravagance" is our living quarters - condo overlooking the Pacific in Paradise instead of an average house on the mainland. Much of our other increased spending is in aid of this particular extravagance. Such things as higher travel budget (to visit family/friends we left behind) the Paradise "tax", keeping a small place on the mainland, etc.
What we DON'T seem to perceive as "worth it" (yet - for us) are things like newer/better cars, 1st class travel, bigger place, Euro trips (heh, heh, we still love "visiting" Hawaii), etc.
Maybe at some point we will see the value in some of these things (1st class IS much more comfortable - perhaps we'll get so decrepit it will then seem worth it.) Until then, it's still a struggle to spend for less perceived value.
I have to admit the smallest envy (not sure if that is the right word, but close enough) of those with budgets 2 to 5 times our budget. Actually, I think I just live vicariously through the posts about extensive luxury 1st class travel to exotic places, luxury cars, multiple houses, etc. I celebrate anyone's passion for what they spend THEIR money on! I say "enjoy it!" YMMV
kcowan
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
We have an FA to help with portfolio growth. I am seeing a need for a lifestyle coach to assist with this class of problem. They would know about taxes, charities, gifting and inheritance.
Sunset
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
That's what I'm contemplating as "experience" spending. I'm thinking that we keep our base expenses flat at $60k and start spending $20-40k a year on travel -- to go to Europe, Caribbean, Hawaii, Asia. DW and I love traveling so rather than waiting for RE, we start spending on vacations. And because I no longer am trying to get ahead in the corporate environment, I can finally take some 2 week vacations
.....
I recommend taking a Viking River cruise, it's a bit expensive (we spent $10 for 2 weeks, but that was the cheap room.). It is traveling on the river in nice luxury, and you meet many interesting and pleasant folks enjoying the fruits of their labor.
One of the fellows on our trip was a Canadian, lived near T.O. and owned a company that employed well over 100 people.
For the summer, we went on our first cruise at royal caribbean. I liked the trip, although it was a bit crowded at times, but plenty of things to do. I'll check this out. I've read that if we wanted to go a bit more luxurious, crystal cruises were supposed to be better, or we can always try the new Ritz cruises.
DW likes more luxury, whereas I'm the type who wouldn't mind backpacking through Europe. In general, I'm always looking for something new so I would prefer not to buy a vacation home. I think I'd get tired of it sooner than later.
Would you hold off on RE if you had kids on middle school? Or are you saying you need to make sure you can pay all of this (if you choose to do so)?
That's good advice. For many years, I traveled extensively for work and I got constantly upgraded to first class. For domestic travel, I don't see a huge difference, and I'm perfectly happy in coach when traveling for pleasure.
I had a good conversation with DW. She's happy that we're going to let loose a bit. Of course, the best things in life don't cost much money. During this extended weekend, I took the kids bike riding to the local DQ for some ice cream -- $8 in total and worth every penny.
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Fedup
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$10 for 2 weeks? Where and how can I sign up? Too cheap?
Having been thru the gauntlet with 4 kids my hindsight advice to most people who ask is yes, wait until they are at least in college and things ($$) are more predictable. When my kids were younger I had one set of plans that cost X and then life has away of taking you down another path where things may cost a multiple of X. While much of it is controllable in a sense, you find yourself compromising on some of your earlier plans because you have been affected by lifestyle creep or you become a big softy (in my case, easy to do with 3 of my 4 kids being girls). Example: I said I would never have 6 cars in my driveway and guess what, I had 6 cars. Kids car insurance (especially when they are not always the bets drivers), braces for 4 kids, private school when you planned on public school because 1 or 2 kids needed a a certain type of help, college out of state when you planned on in state. Point is, those little boogers can cost some dough and in my case, I made the decision to get them off the payroll before I launch.
SilentWalker
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I would say it also depends on one's age and degree of burnout one is experiencing. My personal choice will be retiring very soon, something between 2 and 8 months from now, just due to the fact that I am not willing to be part of the magacorp exec meat grinder any more. While it also means I will not be able to pay for Ivy League schooling for my 3-year old son, quitting now will at least give me a chance for making to his graduation alive.
For the summer, we went on our first cruise at royal caribbean. I liked the trip, although it was a bit crowded at times, but plenty of things to do. I'll check this out. I've read that if we wanted to go a bit more luxurious, crystal cruises were supposed to be better, or we can always try the new Ritz cruises.
DW likes more luxury, whereas I'm the type who wouldn't mind backpacking through Europe. In general, I'm always looking for something new so I would prefer not to buy a vacation home. I think I'd get tired of it sooner than later.
Would you hold off on RE if you had kids on middle school? Or are you saying you need to make sure you can pay all of this (if you choose to do so)?
That's good advice. For many years, I traveled extensively for work and I got constantly upgraded to first class. For domestic travel, I don't see a huge difference, and I'm perfectly happy in coach when traveling for pleasure.
I had a good conversation with DW. She's happy that we're going to let loose a bit. Of course, the best things in life don't cost much money. During this extended weekend, I took the kids bike riding to the local DQ for some ice cream -- $8 in total and worth every penny.
For your next cruise, if you want something different than a river cruise, I recommend trying one of the small luxury cruise lines - Sea Dream, Silverseas, Regent Seven Seas, or even Windstar. Smaller than Crystal ships so great service/personal attention.
kaudrey
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How about getting involved with a charity? Giving back is one of the main reasons I want to FI - both with my time and my money.
