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Old 06-10-2021, 04:18 PM   #41
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I only know Billionaires that I see on TV, the news or read about but I'd be interested to hear what billionaires you think don't act like jerks.... Buffett maybe.... Should be a pretty short list, IMO.....
You don't become a billionaire by being nice to everyone. Ego plays a big part. Maybe Buffett is the exception, but I would bet he has made some enemies along the way. Given what he has bought and sold, I bet there are some people he dealt with that think he is no better than Gordon Gecko. No data, No cite. Just a gut feeling.
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:18 PM   #42
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Interesting discussion everyone! Thanks for the replies.
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:21 PM   #43
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Itís an income tax, not a wealth taxÖ.fake news.
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:29 PM   #44
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Stock option grants are taxable.
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:32 PM   #45
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Stock option grants are taxable.
Only if exercised. Buy the stock. Hold it. no taxes until you sell.
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:36 PM   #46
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Oh good, another Rohrschach Test for how ER.org members feel about tax policy.
Really? I will keep my opinion to myself then.
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:38 PM   #47
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I haven't delved into the articles but from what I've heard reported it was around no taxes on unrealized gains.... but everyone gets that benefit. ...
One article looks at the B's tax rate as a percentage of income, not unrealized gains.

https://www.propublica.org/article/y...-a-billionaire

"The very richest Americans win at the tax game no matter which measure you use. ...". Based on -income- they report "On average, they paid 15.8% in personal federal income taxes between 2014 and 2018."
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:43 PM   #48
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One article looks at the B's tax rate as a percentage of income, not unrealized gains.

https://www.propublica.org/article/y...-a-billionaire

"The very richest Americans win at the tax game no matter which measure you use. ...". Based on -income- they report "On average, they paid 15.8% in personal federal income taxes between 2014 and 2018."
Same publication, using the same data. Just a different take for those of us that figured out they played fast with the definition of tax rate in the other article. You think MAYBE they have an agenda?
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Old 06-10-2021, 05:20 PM   #49
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I'm sorry, I can't get upset when anyone, billionaire or "just" a millionaire, follows the tax code and legal saves a pile of money.
Exactly. I am a landlord and I have been taking every legal deduction available to me. I have been aligning my investments for YEARS so that they will throw very little "income" during my gap years so that I take advantage of Roth conversions and heath insurance subsidies. You can't fault someone for being smart and taking advantage of the laws on the books.
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Old 06-10-2021, 05:32 PM   #50
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Sure, we can quibble about the specifics, but these folks are, to me, modern day Robber Barons.

Corner them, and tax them heavily.
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Old 06-10-2021, 05:44 PM   #51
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When Politicians rant about the wealthy not paying their fair share, they point to the billionaires, but the tax laws they pass are actually intended to impact the little people like us on this forum.

Once the government showed it could just vote a few extra TRILLION dollars into existence with zero concern for how to pay for it, the curtain was pulled back on the whole "need to raise taxes on the rich" argument.

Seems the real purpose of the income tax is to prevent citizens from gaining financial independence from having to work, or said another way to keep as many as possible from breaking free of the bonds that make them slaves to the system. That freedom from having to work to survive being what many here have done, or hope to one day do.
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Old 06-10-2021, 05:47 PM   #52
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Functionally, income taxes in the US are wage taxes, with a sideline to collect deferred taxes through wages sent to retirement accounts.

Taxing businesses using this system, especially large businesses, has not been particularly successful in recent years. It imposes large compliance costs without taking in much money.
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Old 06-10-2021, 05:50 PM   #53
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CSDot,

I would respectfully disagree - your statement is a bit too broad wrt what the current effort to tax is about.

To your second point, all politicians in my adult lifetime, in both parties, have passed budget after budget, and law after law - that were not payed for with additional taxes. We are just exiting a 20 year period of war that was not paid for by additional taxes.
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Old 06-10-2021, 06:08 PM   #54
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Sure, we can quibble about the specifics, but these folks are, to me, modern day Robber Barons.

Corner them, and tax them heavily.
Seriously? I don't know what to say.

You do know the "robber barons" of the past were some of the biggest philanthropists in recent history, right? (Carnegie, Rockerfeller, et.al.)

You do know they, and the current cohort, put hundreds of thousands of people to work?

I am not going to argue the "goodness" of these people.

Tax them fairly, according to the system we have. (and I hate to use fairly and taxes in the same sentence, but I have done that a few times today)
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Old 06-10-2021, 06:13 PM   #55
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Yep, seriously.

Tax policy is always changing - it needs to change to provide a semblance of fairness.

This is pretty informative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber...(industrialist)
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Old 06-10-2021, 06:22 PM   #56
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Yep, seriously.

Tax policy is always changing - it needs to change to provide a semblance of fairness.

This is pretty informative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber...(industrialist)

Ok, you win.

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Old 06-10-2021, 06:26 PM   #57
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Yep, seriously.

Tax policy is always changing - it needs to change to provide a semblance of fairness.

This is pretty informative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber...(industrialist)
Intellectual curiosity here, but do you more fall in the camp of taxes to fund government, or taxes to drive policy? The drive policy option could include some form of equity or social engineering.

I am not making a judgment call on your post one way or the other, but interested in how you are approaching this issue.

Thinking back to my basic tax class in law school we only dealt with the former option (taxes to fund government), but I suspect my friends who went on to get an LLM in Tax took classes exploring the later option (drive policy/social engineering).
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Old 06-10-2021, 06:32 PM   #58
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Only if exercised. Buy the stock. Hold it. no taxes until you sell.
You are subject to AMT on any price difference when you exercise (buy) a qualified stock option.
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Old 06-10-2021, 06:51 PM   #59
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You are subject to AMT on any price difference when you exercise (buy) a qualified stock option.
I did not know that, as I was only had small options. In my case, it was only on the sale.

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Old 06-10-2021, 07:22 PM   #60
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I did not know that, as I was only had small options. In my case, it was only on the sale.

Learn something new every day.
It can be considerable and the rate is high after an initial exemption - 26% to 28%.

You eventually get it back as a credit against ordinary cap gains taxes when you sell the stock.

But if the stock goes down later - ouch! Quite a few got trapped in this with the dot.com bust.

The qualified options I am familiar with had a vesting schedule and so you couldn’t exercise them right away, but they gradually vested over several years and then you had a few more years to exercise them. If the stock has gone up a lot since the option grant, you could be paying a large tax bill.

The unqualified options I am familiar with were treated as income on the difference and you were usually better off doing a same day sale and financing the purchase that way.
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