Billionaires don’t pay taxes?

Status
Not open for further replies.
One thing I noticed that's getting pushed these days is the narrative that it's "unfair" that someone "made" obscene amounts of money but paid little to nothing in taxes, but they forget that asset appreciation is NOT income. It's only income, if you sell something off at a profit and then pay taxes on it.

So, if you started 2020 with $1B in net worth and ended up with a net worth of $1.5B at the end of the year, but you only cashed out $100K (or let it rise, but made $100K in some other fashion), then your taxable income is only $100K (minus any deductions). But with the narratives I'm seeing pushed in some of these "financial" articles, in their mind, that person made $500M.

Let's say this hypothetical person paid $10K in federal taxes. Regardless of what their top marginal tax rate is, their effective tax burden is 10%. But these financial savants would have you believe their effective tax burden was only 0.002% ($10k/$500M).

I'm oversimplifying it a bit here. It's possible that on its rise from $1B to $1.5B, that portfolio might have had taxable events such as dividends, capital gains distributions from mutual funds, etc., but for the sake of simplicity, let's pretend it didn't.

What really happened here, is that this person had assets that rose in value, from $1B to $1.5B. But then the next year, who knows? It could fall to $500M.

What a lot of these people are advocating, is actually a wealth tax, rather than an income tax. Whether they're doing that to be sneaky, or simply don't understand how math and taxes work, remains to be seen. But I have a feeling that, as time goes by, you're going to see more self-appointed experts post these types of articles. I have a feeling these are the same types of people that would short-circuit mentally if you tried to make them start a carbureted car that comes with two keys. :p

Exactly!
 
I figure the only way to truly see who pays what, would be to make all tax returns available for the public to see.
(Sans the SSN's of course)

Of course that's never going to happen, so the debate will probably go on forever.

As I understand it, approximately 45% of people who file a tax return pay zero federal taxes, & debt, which reached 1 trillion for the first time in history in 1980, is now over 30 trillion. Some say the real number is 3 times that if you count the unfunded liabilities from SS & Medicare.

I have no idea what the actual number is, only that it doesn't seem sustainable.
At least not if debt ever 'matters'

Modern Monetary Theory says it doesn't.
I hope that's right.
 
The Go Curry Cracker Blog tells you how to pay very little taxes and explains exactly how to do it for smaller income early retirees. He's mostly living off of capital gains income from non retirement accounts. He has lots of great info but the forums wont let me link without it looking like spam.
The topic here is billionaires, not people like this, but I've seen this blog and there is a certain amount of smoke and mirrors. One blog entry was discussed in this thread, with the blogger participating:
https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/how-to-minimize-my-tax-72880.html

A poor lifetime strategy IMO, and I feel confident running the numbers would prove it.
 
One trick some reporters use is to report the amount owed when they file, ignoring the huge quarterly tax payments they made.
They decide what they want to write and cherry pick information to “support” it.
 
Hopefully the IRS employees who leaked the data will serve some jail time.
 
OK I get that increases in net worth and income are two different things and have nothing to do with taxes. However, what about this article that says Musk borrows money against his stock or other collateral and doesn't take a paycheck from Tesla, hence no income and no income taxes. Seems way too easy and clever. What's the downside of this, besides needing to pay it back? https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2021-06-09/so-i-guess-it-wasnt-two-cents-after-all
 
I would imagine - unless these B's are very carefully invested, their dividends alone would put them into high income brackets. Of course, even so, taxes on, say $500k in dividends might qualify as chump change compared to their wealth, but if they don't have income that is how it works. That is the system.

I don't particularly care for the process of borrowing against invested assets to pay for your lifestyle, because they can just keep getting new loans to pay the old, etc. That seems really unsavory to me. But I also don't think there would be any smart way to legislate around it that wouldn't hurt everyone else much more.

And besides, all these multi-B's will just find a new way around it. They won't just sit there and go welp you got me, guess I have to start paying taxes. There is always some bank in the Cayman's or something...or Mars...
 
One thing I noticed that's getting pushed these days is the narrative that it's "unfair" that someone "made" obscene amounts of money but paid little to nothing in taxes, but they forget that asset appreciation is NOT income. It's only income, if you sell something off at a profit and then pay taxes on it.

So, if you started 2020 with $1B in net worth and ended up with a net worth of $1.5B at the end of the year, but you only cashed out $100K (or let it rise, but made $100K in some other fashion), then your taxable income is only $100K (minus any deductions). But with the narratives I'm seeing pushed in some of these "financial" articles, in their mind, that person made $500M.

Let's say this hypothetical person paid $10K in federal taxes. Regardless of what their top marginal tax rate is, their effective tax burden is 10%. But these financial savants would have you believe their effective tax burden was only 0.002% ($10k/$500M).

I'm oversimplifying it a bit here. It's possible that on its rise from $1B to $1.5B, that portfolio might have had taxable events such as dividends, capital gains distributions from mutual funds, etc., but for the sake of simplicity, let's pretend it didn't.

What really happened here, is that this person had assets that rose in value, from $1B to $1.5B. But then the next year, who knows? It could fall to $500M.

What a lot of these people are advocating, is actually a wealth tax, rather than an income tax. Whether they're doing that to be sneaky, or simply don't understand how math and taxes work, remains to be seen. But I have a feeling that, as time goes by, you're going to see more self-appointed experts post these types of articles. I have a feeling these are the same types of people that would short-circuit mentally if you tried to make them start a carbureted car that comes with two keys. :p

This is not how the game is played. Elon Musk has spent hundreds of millions of dollars because he borrows against that equity and borrowing is free from taxation. He then has TESLA give him further equity each year, raising equity and allowing more personal borrowing-in 2021 he was granted 701 million dollars in stock options. As of today he has 558 million in personal debt that he has been able to spend without paying a dime in taxes for multiple years in a row.

The interest is deductible in the future when you do have income, which is why after years of living on borrowed money on stock investments, Carl Ichan was able to cash in 520 million in profits and deduct all the gains from past interest costs that were not deductible due to no income.

Peter Thiel put a PAYPAL & FACEBOOK STOCK valued at 5,000 in his estimation before public allowed in into a ROTH 401K, as soon as they allowed outside investors the valuation now is 90 million and it is tax free for any use in 6 years.
Mark Zuckerberg has a tax free Grant Annuity Trust that is valued at 185 million dollars and that money is exempt from taxes.

Warren Buffett complains about executives and private planes and bought a company with 20 so he can fly at a moment's notice on Berkshires expense because, well why not?


Billionaires support higher income tax rates because they do not ever use income to support themselves, excepting when they need to sell massive amounts of stock which they do when the capital gainst tax rates are dropped to 15%. Almost every expense they have can be called a company expense, no matter how luxiorious and avoids the need for income, they live on equity and company expense accounts.

Equity is superior to income in every way because you always have access to money but you get to choose if and when you declare income.
 
Last edited:
OK I get that increases in net worth and income are two different things and have nothing to do with taxes. However, what about this article that says Musk borrows money against his stock or other collateral and doesn't take a paycheck from Tesla, hence no income and no income taxes. Seems way too easy and clever. What's the downside of this, besides needing to pay it back? https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2021-06-09/so-i-guess-it-wasnt-two-cents-after-all

Didn't read the article, but how is this different than taking out a HELOC, using those funds for spending, slowly paying back the loan, and then being in a low enough tax bracket to get ACA subsidies, saving 10's of thousands of dollars per year?

I have not done this, but from reading posts, more than a couple here have, or at least have the HELOC as a back-up.

I'm sorry, I can't get upset when anyone, billionaire or "just" a millionaire, follows the tax code and legal saves a pile of money.
 
One trick some reporters use is to report the amount owed when they file, ignoring the huge quarterly tax payments they made.
They decide what they want to write and cherry pick information to “support” it.

Exactly. To avoid being penalized last year i made large advance payments. Media folks would gladly report that I made lots of money and didn’t have to “pay” any taxes on my tax return. That would of course be incorrect. My taxes were paid will in advance of my return. We aren’t supposed to be really short on our payment of taxes. Idiots in the media, or media folks with malicious intent capitalize on this to make it seem someone important only paid $750. Huge advance payments are totally ignored to make it seem as if the wealthy person is cheating.

Another way they mislead is to ignore the depreciation of things such as real estate holdings or expensive equipment. This depreciation is not only allowed, its normally mandated. You get to decide what methods you use, or speed it up or slow it down a little, but you normally don’t get to not play. This can have the effect of postponing taxes somewhat but not necessarily escaping. The normal consequence is that both you and the government make more money, but at a later date.

In the 70’s I sold a rental property that I had been having fun depreciating. My father in law was an IRA agent who did my taxes. That’s when I got the big tax bill and found out about “recapture”. I said “Well I don’t want to depreciate anything ever again if that is how this works!”. He said “you don’t really have a choice. You have to depreciate your real estate rentals. We can play with the method. We can speed it up. Or slow it down. But when you eventually sell for a profit, the government is your partner again with their hand out.” Of course I could have exchanged it into another like kind of property and kept the game going for longer. And some idiot reporter could write about me too. But postponing taxes is not the same as escaping taxes.
 
I would imagine - unless these B's are very carefully invested, their dividends alone would put them into high income brackets. Of course, even so, taxes on, say $500k in dividends might qualify as chump change compared to their wealth, but if they don't have income that is how it works. That is the system.

Just a point, in the case of Tesla, Amazon, and Berkshire Hathaway, no dividends. I expect many of the others B's are invested similarly, or in Real Estate. I would guess many actually have very little divie income, why would they invest that way? They have a trove of CPA's to tell them how to save on taxes, not that there is anything wrong with that.
 
The only part that caught my eye in this whole report is that supposedly the ultra rich were using bank loans to skirt taxes as it didn't force a sale of anything.

But its impossible to get into "fair" without getting into every little thing.
ie is it fair that one person rents and another gets to take a huge tax break on a 3/4 million home? Is it fair one person works their way thru school and has no student debt and the other gets to write it off? Is it fair deductions are based on your income so the more you make the bigger your deduction for the exact same thing? Is it fair that if you buy your insurance thru a company it is tax deductible but its not if you buy it as an individual?

I hate the word "fair" when it comes to the tax code, pick you poison those that know the system get a much better deal than those that dont. However at any given time most people traverse their way thru the fair/unfair parts of each part of the tax code so in the end its a wash.
 
I enjoy the sport of seeing billionaires, the ones who act like jerks anyway, take their lumps as much as anyone.
I only know Billionaires that I see on TV, the news or read about but I'd be interested to hear what billionaires you think don't act like jerks.... Buffett maybe.... Should be a pretty short list, IMO.....
 
I only know Billionaires that I see on TV, the news or read about but I'd be interested to hear what billionaires you think don't act like jerks.... Buffett maybe.... Should be a pretty short list, IMO.....

You don't become a billionaire by being nice to everyone. Ego plays a big part. Maybe Buffett is the exception, but I would bet he has made some enemies along the way. Given what he has bought and sold, I bet there are some people he dealt with that think he is no better than Gordon Gecko. No data, No cite. Just a gut feeling.
 
I haven't delved into the articles but from what I've heard reported it was around no taxes on unrealized gains.... but everyone gets that benefit. ...

One article looks at the B's tax rate as a percentage of income, not unrealized gains.

https://www.propublica.org/article/you-may-be-paying-a-higher-tax-rate-than-a-billionaire

"The very richest Americans win at the tax game no matter which measure you use. ...". Based on -income- they report "On average, they paid 15.8% in personal federal income taxes between 2014 and 2018."
 
One article looks at the B's tax rate as a percentage of income, not unrealized gains.

https://www.propublica.org/article/you-may-be-paying-a-higher-tax-rate-than-a-billionaire

"The very richest Americans win at the tax game no matter which measure you use. ...". Based on -income- they report "On average, they paid 15.8% in personal federal income taxes between 2014 and 2018."

Same publication, using the same data. Just a different take for those of us that figured out they played fast with the definition of tax rate in the other article. You think MAYBE they have an agenda?
 
I'm sorry, I can't get upset when anyone, billionaire or "just" a millionaire, follows the tax code and legal saves a pile of money.
Exactly. I am a landlord and I have been taking every legal deduction available to me. I have been aligning my investments for YEARS so that they will throw very little "income" during my gap years so that I take advantage of Roth conversions and heath insurance subsidies. You can't fault someone for being smart and taking advantage of the laws on the books.
 
Last edited:
Sure, we can quibble about the specifics, but these folks are, to me, modern day Robber Barons.

Corner them, and tax them heavily.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom