Chip and PIN credit cards for Europe

[audreyh1]

This US bank, First Niagra, is issuing chip & PIN:

New York Bank Believes Americans Can Remember a PIN | NACS Online – News & Media Center – News Archive

But PIN will only work if terminal is equipped to handle such.

It will take the US several years, but I predict by 2020 chip & PIN will predominate here too.

If terminals will accept debit cards they should handle PINs.

 

[NoiseBoy]

Bank Bets You Can Remember Another PIN

A regional bank in upstate New York is challenging the industry belief that American credit-card users can’t deal with one more thing to remember.

The way I understand it, CC fraud from lost or stolen physical cards is comparatively low, so the US CC issuers don't see the pin as bringing much value as it only prevents fraud when someone is trying to use a stolen card at a physical POS terminal. Heck, the big box stores don't bother making you sign for anything under ~$50 now, and I don't see that changing even if our cards had pins.

The value of the chip is that it makes it much harder for hackers to make physical cards from stolen CC data. At least that was the claim of the news story I heard.

 

[audreyh1]

Bank Bets You Can Remember Another PIN

A regional bank in upstate New York is challenging the industry belief that American credit-card users can’t deal with one more thing to remember.

The way I understand it, CC fraud from lost or stolen physical cards is comparatively low, so the US CC issuers don't see the pin as bringing much value as it only prevents fraud when someone is trying to use a stolen card at a physical POS terminal. Heck, the big box stores don't bother making you sign for anything under ~$50 now, and I don't see that changing even if our cards had pins.

The value of the chip is that it makes it much harder for hackers to make physical cards from stolen CC data. At least that was the claim of the news story I heard.

That seems to be the argument from the US issuing banks, although having a PIN would make a counterfeited physical card much harder to use.

But there is still a big hole - internet shopping. I don't know how it works in Europe, but obviously in the US all you need is the card credentials to order stuff and there is no place to enter and verify the card PIN. The fraudulent charges I saw using my compromised (but never physically stolen) card looked like they were ordering stuff from mail order places - a chip doesn't protect you from those "card not present" fraudulent transactions. At least in one case I had a card with a chip compromised this way, so the chip didn't make a difference in terms of someone being able to use it for online ordering.

Another thing in Europe - the card does not leave your presence. A terminal is brought to the table, or you go up to a counter and put the card in the terminal. There is no opportunity for someone to take your card and swipe it somewhere.

We are far away from that still in the US when it comes to restaurants and any other counter that takes your card from you instead of having you swipe (or insert) your own card.

I kind of get the impression that US banks/issuers and retailers have to do things the hard way and the whole process of moving towards truly more secure CC transactions will be very, very slow.

 

[meierlde]

That seems to be the argument from the US issuing banks, although having a PIN would make a counterfeited physical card much harder to use.

But there is still a big hole - internet shopping. I don't know how it works in Europe, but obviously in the US all you need is the card credentials to order stuff and there is no place to enter and verify the card PIN. The fraudulent charges I saw using my compromised (but never physically stolen) card looked like they were ordering stuff from mail order places - a chip doesn't protect you from those "card not present" fraudulent transactions. At least in one case I had a card with a chip compromised this way, so the chip didn't make a difference in terms of someone being able to use it for online ordering.

Another thing in Europe - the card does not leave your presence. A terminal is brought to the table, or you go up to a counter and put the card in the terminal. There is no opportunity for someone to take your card and swipe it somewhere.

We are far away from that still in the US when it comes to restaurants and any other counter that takes your card from you instead of having you swipe (or insert) your own card.

I kind of get the impression that US banks/issuers and retailers have to do things the hard way and the whole process of moving towards truly more secure CC transactions will be very, very slow.

The issue of taking the card depends on how the restaraunt is set up at many I frequent the bill is taken to the counter to pay. (Saves the wait staff worrring about this). Or one can see the way Chilli's does it by putting the device on each table (also able to sell games on the device as well)

 

[audreyh1]

The issue of taking the card depends on how the restaraunt is set up at many I frequent the bill is taken to the counter to pay. (Saves the wait staff worrring about this). Or one can see the way Chilli's does it by putting the device on each table (also able to sell games on the device as well)

Many of the restaurants around here and in large cities I visit the waiter takes the card from the customer over to an area that is away from customer access. I would like to see this change.

 

[meierlde]

Many of the restaurants around here and in large cities I visit the waiter takes the card from the customer over to an area that is away from customer access. I would like to see this change.

I live in a town of 20k and it varies. Now of course the Chilli's model could come and make more sense, as well as a way to get additional money. (It is the more casual places that use the cashier model BTW.) It must be a perception issue, because if you think about it just dropping the check off and letting the customer pay does save staff time. (2 round trips to the table)

 

[audreyh1]

I live in a town of 20k and it varies. Now of course the Chilli's model could come and make more sense, as well as a way to get additional money. (It is the more casual places that use the cashier model BTW.) It must be a perception issue, because if you think about it just dropping the check off and letting the customer pay does save staff time. (2 round trips to the table)

Sure, but in larger cities with lots of major chain restaurants, especially the higher end ones, the check is brought to the table and the credit card taken. It's considered part of the service - they aren't trying to save staff time, they are instead not requiring the customer to walk to a register. It would be nice for them to bring a terminal to the table instead like they do in Europe.

 

[Meadbh]

Many of the restaurants around here and in large cities I visit the waiter takes the card from the customer over to an area that is away from customer access. I would like to see this change.

You can change it yourself. Before we had POS terminals brought to the table, I customarily went to the cash desk to pay my bill.

 

[kcowan]

Had no problem with our PINed CCs in Italy as all restaurants accept them (and hotels, stores and supermarkets). Had a problem with one sidewalk cafe that tried my card with its wireless handheld repeatedly and caused my PIN to be locked. I used DW partner card successfully (after they changed the battery) but could not get a new PIN accepted out of country for mine. It needed an approved device the first time the new PIN was used and they are not available in Europe. Chase Visa.

 

[Travelwanted]

Returned from Germany recently. Brought my chip and pin Captial one but forgot my pin!
Never had an issue, just signed at all locations where cards were accepted.

 

[audreyh1]

Returned from Germany recently. Brought my chip and pin Captial one but forgot my pin!
Never had an issue, just signed at all locations where cards were accepted.

Capital One doesn't issue chip and PIN cards, so it wouldn't have made any difference.

Any PIN they gave you was only for cash advances which are quite expensive.

 

[Travelwanted]

Do not mean to be disagreeable but they do:

About Credit Card Chip Technology and PINs | Capital One Canada

American Express does not yet.

 

[Travelwanted]

But another page indicates they are doing chip and signature. I was told my was chip and pin but you may be right Audrey. Confusing.

http://www.capitalone.com/credit-cards/chip-cards/

 

[Peter]

The first link went to Capital One in Canada. There, it will be true chip and PIN. The second link is to a US site, chip and signature.

 

[audreyh1]

But another page indicates they are doing chip and signature. I was told my was chip and pin but you may be right Audrey. Confusing.

Chip Technology Overview | Capital One

Right - not in the U.S.. Customer service people are easily confused about this. I'm not surprised they do so in Canada - chip and PIN is heavily used there.

My original post should have specified "in the U.S." . Barclays is the only bank I'm aware of issuing chip and PIN cards in the U.S.. All the others are credit unions.

 

[brett]

We will not let our cards out of our sight.

Here in Canada, when I use the card in a restaurant, the server brings a portable, wireless device to the table. We paid cash for our meals in Greece last month but I do seem to recall seeing a server bring one of these portable devices to another table. When we are travelling in Europe it is not uncommon for us to have to go into the office of a small hotel or family lodge in order to input the pin etc. It is different in large hotels where the devices are on the service counter.

 

[kcowan]

Right - not in the U.S.. Customer service people are easily confused about this. I'm not surprised they do so in Canada - chip and PIN is heavily used there.

My original post should have specified "in the U.S." . Barclays is the only bank I'm aware of issuing chip and PIN cards in the U.S.. All the others are credit unions.

In Mexico, restaurants use PIN and signature. I suppose the extra care gives us more protection.

 

[brett]

In Greece this past month many smaller hotels where we used chip and pin also wanted a signature on their merchant copy printout.


The smallest mom and pop place we stayed had the chip 'tap' technology device. No need to insert the card or punch in the PIN. Just tapped the device with the top of our card and voila...it was fait accompli.

 

[kcowan]

The tap technology has limits for us, usually below $100. I use it once in a while, usually at the drug store.

 

[Meadbh]

Just returned from chipping, pinning and tapping my way around Europe with my Canadian TD Infinite Visa. Extremely user friendly, apparently identical systems.

 

[audreyh1]

Apple Pay doesn't cost merchants anything different from the customer using the credit card directly.

Apple Pay FAQ

Of course CurrentC, being promoted by Walmart, isn't really a credit card system. They reach in and take money from your bank account directly. So no credit payments from merchant to Visa/MC/etc, just the Automatic Clearing House fees, which are lower.

CurrentC now officially dead FWIW. Apple Pay rival CurrentC closing up shop for now - CNET

 

[audreyh1]

OK! Some potentially good news for using automated kiosks in Europe:

US banks are now issuing debit/ATM cards with chips. People are reporting that they are able to use their new chip enabled debit/ATM cards in ticket machines that rejected their US-issued chip and PIN credit cards. It makes sense - the ticket machine would see that as a direct bank transaction, just like the ATM machine does. ATM machines in Europe take US issued cards - why not automated machines? Answer - until now, US issued debit/ATM cards lacked the chip which was required in automated ticket machines. See reply 16 in https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTop...a_chip_and_pin_cards-Paris_Ile_de_France.html

Our Charles Schwab debit VISA has a chip. So I will try using it in a transportation ticket machine if my PenFed VISA chip and PIN card is rejected as an invalid card. This may solve a major issue for me.

I notice DH's newly issued BofA debit VISA has a chip. Unfortunately BofA charges 3% on foreign charges, but at least that pesky $5.00 ATM withdrawal fee goes away. Still - now it's available as a backup.

Now - if I could get Fidelity to reissue us debit/ATM cards with a chip. That would be nice.

So for all of you out there that have an ATM/debit VISA card with a chip, you may be able to use it overseas in automated kiosks. Make sure you have a 4 digit PIN.

 

[audreyh1]

Part II - offline or online PIN verification:

Well, the rest of this post may be a non-issue, as one TripAdvisor poster reported that no PIN was required when they used their debit card to purchase tickets:

However I have successfully used this Capital One as a debit card for the purchase of Métro tickets in Paris from a machine which would not accept my VISA card; and I have also used it to recharge my Oyster card in London, again from a machine which declined my VISA card. In neither situation was a PIN required. So whether or not it has the full chip/pin capability, it does the job.....

There is the issue of whether the PIN is embedded in the chip (offline mode) or requires a ticket machine to be online to verify the PIN. I'm pretty sure all my ATM/debit cards required me to set up a PIN after I received the card indicating these are online cards. Whereas my PenFed chip and PIN card is set up for offline mode. That may be another barrier because apparently some ticket machines operate in offline mode only.

Here is a site where you can look up a debit or credit card and find out all sorts of things about the EMV implementation: http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/*

I looked up my PenFed credit card, and my Schwab Bank debit card, and it shows that the PenFed card uses offline PIN verification, indicating it's encoded in the chip, whereas the Schwab Bank debit card uses online verification. I suspected the latter as I was prompted to choose the PIN over the phone.

So there may be issues still with the Schwab debit card if a ticket machine only accepts offline verification.

So many gotchas!!!

*The results also imply that kiosks could accept cash advance PINs issued for chip and signature credit cards, if that support online PIN verification. Also - some folks have reported not even having to enter a PIN at some kiosks - which may mean that small amounts don't require PINs?

 

[audreyh1]

I called the Fidelity Cash Management Account Check Card number today. They now issue ATM/debit cards with chips, so I asked to be sent new cards. Yes!

I also asked about the foreign transaction fee, and I was told there was no fee applied on ATM withdrawals - so 0%. If a debit transaction is used, or cash is withdrawn from a teller inside the bank, then the 1% foreign transaction fee applies.

 

[kcowan]

Been using my Chase no FX chipped CC in Amsterdam and Brugges without any problems, even at coffee shops and corner stores. Paid cash in the taxis but did not ask about cards.