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Old 08-29-2018, 11:20 AM   #41
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In my portfolio no, but as a investment tool to make or not lose as much in vehicle purchases yes. I wont ever buy a new vehicle ever again. Yes it is nice to have a new car smell and all the bells and whistles. But my newish jeep g/c has been in the shop because of the fancy doo-dads failing. Also the depreciation right off the lot is ridiculous. I try and buy desirable cars or trucks that maintain their value or go up in value. Also insurance is cheaper for specialty cars as well.
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Old 08-29-2018, 11:45 AM   #42
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... Got caught in Galena Il on a one lane road up a mountain...
Those are bluffs around Galena ... they only want you to think they're mountains.

(Blame Prairie Home Companion for that one)
Only someone who lives in IL and FL would call those "mountains"!

Yes, some roads in Galena IL are steep relative to the rest of the flat farming land in IL. But "mountain" did make me laugh!


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Old 08-29-2018, 12:35 PM   #43
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I have a friend that goes to Vegas when they have those actions and buys vehicles. He has over 40 the last time I asked him. LOL he might not be truthful about tha number. Could be more then that. LOL
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Old 08-29-2018, 03:46 PM   #44
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I’m new to the forum but think you folks might want to know that profit made from collectible cars is not taxed at regular Capital Gains rate, rather it is taxed at a special rate which is basically like Ordinary Income.
That's a very valuable point, and I imagine there are some here who might not know that.

But the car collector I know pays millions for each one, so I mentally put those people in a whole different category.

BTW, welcome to the forum!

How about telling us a bit about yourself here:

Hi, I am... - Early Retirement & Financial Independence Community
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Old 08-29-2018, 06:18 PM   #45
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I finally sold my 1976 VW Rabbit in March of this year. It had been my daily driver for nearly 30 years. I only licensed and insured it as a collector vehicle a few months before I sold it. We had a lot of memories with that little car so it was emotional for us to let it go. But, I realized I didn't have the time or desire to maintain another vehicle and I wanted the garage space to work on other projects.

More photos and videos on my Rabbit page:
Life With My VW Rabbit - Anthony Watson



I recently contacted the guy who bought it and he sent me a photo of the changes he has made so far. It broke my heart to see what happened to my baby...
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:36 PM   #46
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I have 6 old vehicles that can be considered collectible (1937, 1938, 1938, 1949, 1952, 1968). None are huge value cars, but they are also far from $1000 beaters. I don't consider any of them investments or include any value of the vehicles in a net worth amount. They are my hobby and I get enjoyment driving them. Yes they do go up in value generally, especially over time. Kind of like the stock market, the collectible car market gets hot and cold, they tend to follow together. When people feel good about stocks and money, they also feel good about buying collectible vehicles.


Driving any of my old vehicles makes me happy, get numerous thumbs up from people when driving them, and unlike some hobby activities mine actually make me money if I sell. It's always easier to buy than to sell.



The biggest issue with a collectible vehicle as an investment is being a non-liquid asset. It may be hard to sell and get your money. Combine with the cyclic market and it should only be part of a speculative risk portion if you do invest instead of just buying to own and enjoy driving.
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Old 08-29-2018, 08:42 PM   #47
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People see big money paid at auctions but neglect the fees which are 8% seller /10% buyer and $600 just for the privilege to bid at Barrett Jackson. That makes stock commissions look tiny.
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:15 PM   #48
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I am the original owner of a 1997 Porsche 993 C4S with approximately 15,000 miles. Porsche was kind enough to make the 993 the last of the air cooled 911s so 993 values have been increasing for quite sometime.

At this point the car is worth considerably more than my original purchase price. I suspect if I crunched the numbers the cost to own (insurance, maintenance, cost of capital) would make my return 0%. But it also means I’ve own the car for 21 years for free and could get back my original investment.

Make of that what you will...
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Old 08-31-2018, 06:52 AM   #49
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It's not surprising that folks on this forum are skeptical of classic cars as an investment. The inherent risk and carrying costs make them far less preferable than mutual funds. However, they are also a lot more fun than mutual funds, so it is not unreasonable to allocate a (very) small portion of your portfolio to a classic car, provided you follow a few rules.

- Don't do this for the sake of an investment as a primary goal. If you like cars, and would be buying a sports car, old truck, or other non-necessary transportation anyway, there are ways of directing your money into something that stands a chance of making you some money rather than just burning it up as a hobby. I bought a brand new Toyota MR2 Spyder in for $25K in 2002, the same year a friend bought a 1985 Ferrari Mondial for $22k. A couple years later, I sold my MR2 for $17.5k, and he sold his Ferrari for $22k. He paid $3k for maintenance and repairs, while I paid $7.5k in depreciation. That convinced me I could approach the hobby differently.

- Look for cars at the bottom of their depreciation curve. Generally speaking, new cars lose value every year until about 15 years or so. Then certain isolated examples start to rise again.

- Buy something you like. This is an illiquid investment, so you need to be able to weather market fluctutations and hold onto a car that may be relatively depressed in the classic market for a few years.

- You're much better off buying something with a highly recognizable name. Everyone knows Corvette, Mustang, Porsche, Jeep, etc., so your eventual selling market expands to the general population who "always wanted one of those", whereas a Lancia, Studebaker, etc. will generally limit you to the specific enthusiast market.

- If you have an opportunity to buy a limited production version of a model, go for it!

- You make money on the purchase. The lower your bar of entry, the higher your eventual profit.

- Compromise in certain areas. You may love yellow Ferraris and green Porsches, but a red Ferrari and a silver Porsche will sell for the right price a lot faster.

Now, do note that this info is coming from someone who has read car magazines, websites, etc. daily for the past 35 years. This is deep hobby and a passion for me, and I've admittedly only recently learned how to be more strategic in my purchases, which has yielded much better results when I sell than in the past. I don't consider what I do "investing" per se, so much as mitigating losses on an expensive hobby. If I wind up actually making money, I'm happily surprised. In most cases, it winds up being a push...but that means I was the custodian of a classic Porsche, Ferrari, Vespa, etc. for little to nothing for several years.

Again, I certain don't expect the LBYM crowd (of which I am admittedly not a member) to embrace any of this. I suspect my indulgences may have been influenced by my father, who was a lifelong car enthusiast, but always said, "I don't need that" when faced the decision of whether to actually pull the trigger on a sports car. "Not for me, not today, maybe one day." I see in retrospect that had he actually bought the Triumph Spitfire he lusted after, the several thousand dollars would have had minimal impact on his current eight figure portfolio...but who know? Maybe he feared it would have been a gateway drug...
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Old 09-08-2018, 10:32 AM   #50
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I bought a 1967 Jaguar E-type roadster when I was 24 years old for $10k. I drove it for 4-5 years and then life required me to garage it. I just retired 8 months ago at 58 and my retirement project is doing a complete nuts and bolts restoration of that same car that has been sitting in my garage for the last 30ish years.
Do I count it as part of my portfolio? Heck yes! Since I am working closely with a professional Jaguar/Ferrari restoration mentor, the car could be worth $150-250k. I will be investing about $60k plus my labor (I'm free).
Once complete, we plan to take it to a number of Jaguar Concours judged shows to get the car a good reputation as being restored properly to original.
If the car economy collapses, will it kill my retirement? No, but it will put a dent in it. I am using the project as a money making venture, but also as a fun way to keep myself busy doing something I really enjoy, and then, once complete, it will be a fun adventure for my wife and I taking it to shows. Hopefully, we will end up smiling as a collector hands us a check for an amount that makes us happy!
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Old 09-08-2018, 11:05 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by chrisv View Post
I bought a 1967 Jaguar E-type roadster when I was 24 years old for $10k. I drove it for 4-5 years and then life required me to garage it. I just retired 8 months ago at 58 and my retirement project is doing a complete nuts and bolts restoration of that same car that has been sitting in my garage for the last 30ish years.
Do I count it as part of my portfolio? Heck yes! Since I am working closely with a professional Jaguar/Ferrari restoration mentor, the car could be worth $150-250k. I will be investing about $60k plus my labor (I'm free).
Once complete, we plan to take it to a number of Jaguar Concours judged shows to get the car a good reputation as being restored properly to original.
If the car economy collapses, will it kill my retirement? No, but it will put a dent in it. I am using the project as a money making venture, but also as a fun way to keep myself busy doing something I really enjoy, and then, once complete, it will be a fun adventure for my wife and I taking it to shows. Hopefully, we will end up smiling as a collector hands us a check for an amount that makes us happy!
Chris, here is the current thinking and actual sales data on XKE's. (Bring A Trailer site). If you look around, you will find a scatter graph indicating the BAT universe of sales of these cars.

https://bringatrailer.com/jaguar/xke/
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Old 09-08-2018, 01:29 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by chrisv View Post
I bought a 1967 Jaguar E-type roadster when I was 24 years old for $10k. I drove it for 4-5 years and then life required me to garage it. I just retired 8 months ago at 58 and my retirement project is doing a complete nuts and bolts restoration of that same car that has been sitting in my garage for the last 30ish years.
Do I count it as part of my portfolio? Heck yes! Since I am working closely with a professional Jaguar/Ferrari restoration mentor, the car could be worth $150-250k. I will be investing about $60k plus my labor (I'm free).
Once complete, we plan to take it to a number of Jaguar Concours judged shows to get the car a good reputation as being restored properly to original.
If the car economy collapses, will it kill my retirement? No, but it will put a dent in it. I am using the project as a money making venture, but also as a fun way to keep myself busy doing something I really enjoy, and then, once complete, it will be a fun adventure for my wife and I taking it to shows. Hopefully, we will end up smiling as a collector hands us a check for an amount that makes us happy!
There is always a first, and you may very well be it, but generally speaking you don't make money restoring most old cars. At least that has been my experience. Obviously it comes down to the level of the current project and how perfect you want the end result.

The real justification is you love the car.

Are there exceptions? Sure, but they tend to be incredibly expensive cars.

Regardless, as a lover of old British sports cars (owned a bunch of Lotuses) I applaud you for keeping one more on the road...
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Old 09-08-2018, 04:17 PM   #53
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For me, collectible cars are in the same category as high end antique jewelry or jewels like the Hope diamond.... something I do not want, do not own, and feel would be an utterly senseless, useless albatross dragging me down, nearly impossible to sell for what it is supposedly worth, and doing me no good whatsoever.
.

I Kept my first car, a 1957 VW bug, in a barn for 41 years. Towed it home last week and was offered $16k as-is, while parking at a hotel en route. I don't consider it a collectible or an investment, but the memories it brings are priceless. For some it may be utterly senseless, useless and dragging them down, but for me, my 1962 VW double cab, C-dory Tomcat, and 57 VW bug, bring some serious happiness to an 'old' man. I also suspect my younger better-half will enjoy the fun money she gets when she caches it in. To each their own.
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Old 09-09-2018, 11:20 AM   #54
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Thanks for the website info! I love the site, and spent a few hours looking through it. There is a lot of good Jaguar information and a lot of great pictures. The ongoing conversations are nice too. The pricing looks to be pretty much as expected and it gives me hope that I'm not too far in a dream. But as @LARS said, "The real justification is you love the car". The website also has a lot of really cool other cars for sale and the bidding process (adding an extra 2 minutes after each bid) is really nice, as is the simple $99 to sell an item and the 5% charge to the buyer. Could you give me a little help finding the Scatter graph?

Thanks again for the info!

I am registering to bid on a vehicle and it is asking if I would like to say who referred me by entering their username. If you would like, I can put in your BAT username??
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Old 09-09-2018, 11:27 AM   #55
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Thanks for the website info! I love the site, and spent a few hours looking through it. There is a lot of good Jaguar information and a lot of great pictures. The ongoing conversations are nice too. The pricing looks to be pretty much as expected and it gives me hope that I'm not too far in a dream. But as @LARS said, "The real justification is you love the car". The website also has a lot of really cool other cars for sale and the bidding process (adding an extra 2 minutes after each bid) is really nice, as is the simple $99 to sell an item and the 5% charge to the buyer. Could you give me a little help finding the Scatter graph?

Thanks again for the info!

I am registering to bid on a vehicle and it is asking if I would like to say who referred me by entering their username. If you would like, I can put in your BAT username??

Username on BAT is aja8888

Here is the graph of the Series II for sales of the XKE (scan down):

https://bringatrailer.com/jaguar/xke-series-2-series-3/

If you hover over a dot, the sale results will show, and if you click on it, the historical auction will open in another tab.


It's a great site for us collectors and fan boys!!
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Old 09-09-2018, 11:55 AM   #56
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Got it. Thanks!
Mine is a series I, being registered in early 1967 and dispatched in 1966 per Heritage Trust. Interestingly, it is a left hand drive with european colored side markers, but have been told it was always an american imported car?? Perhaps another subject for a different forum...
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Old 09-09-2018, 03:31 PM   #57
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Chris V. Another excellent e-Type site. Jag-lovers.org
Rummy. 66E-Type. FHC. 1E33010

Edit to add... spend the $$ to get yours safe and reliable, then Drive It!
There are too many over-restored garage queens out there now.

My best times with "The Jag" are when attending cars and coffee events and asking the kids, and parents, "Do you want to sit in it?" Most are astonished and think I'm kidding...

Another member of Jag-lovers says, "You put gas in it and smiles come out all over!" Drive It!!
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Old 09-10-2018, 09:12 AM   #58
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In my extra car days I dabbled in Mustangs and Corvettes. Not what I would consider an investment. I drove them. A lot. Not liquid at all. Each time I'd spend about 6 months selling the car for about what I had in it. Then buy another one. Again not an investment.

Now days cars are for transportation and investments must meet the criteria that they have a saleable value on any given day of my choosing.
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Old 09-10-2018, 08:56 PM   #59
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I never counted my cars in my net worth until I splurged on a convertible Mercedes AMG 55 this year. Then I added a row to my spreadsheet titled "vehicle value" so I could help justify the utterly ridiculous impulse buy.
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