Costs of a Perpetual Traveller Lifestyle?

[Hyperborea]

I've been thinking a bit lately on how much it costs per year for a lifestyle similar to that which the Terhorsts' (http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/5315/index.html) or the Kaderli's (http://www.geocities.com/ba264/) have.  I know that a lot will depend on exactly where you go and what you do but if anyone is following such a lifestyle would give me some real life figures and a rough idea of what that paid for (i.e. 3 months in Thailand in a beach house + 1 month in Greece in a furnished apt. + 2 months in Eastern Europe by train + ...) that would be greatly appreciated.

I'm seriously rethinking my required assets fore FIRE.  I've been planning on 7 more years (until my mid-40's) with a projected NW a good bit north of $1M.  A few $100K is intended as an amount to buy a retirement pad when we (my wife and I) decide to stop travelling.  Am I aiming too high?  Do I need that much?  Every year puts a lot of money into the pot and the last few years of that 7 should add more than the preceeding ones but is it worth it?

Thanks for any feedback.

 

[unclemick]

Although we're sticks in the mud, I'd be curious too - the 20-24k range usually is one I see - when numbers are mentioned. I wonder - if that's viable nowadays.

With a paid up house, car, no health insurance - that's party time for two in south LA outside of the city.

 

[Surfs_Up]

Hyperborea,
I also have been thinking about PT lifestyle costs and bugeting for this. My understanding is that the Terhorsts were (and maybe still are ) budgeting ~ $22K for two people. $50 per day plus $4K for flights. I believe they retired in the mid 80s with around $500K and have grown that to over $1M.

I spent 9 months in SE Asia (Thailand, Laos, Malaysia, Indonesia) in 99 and spent $7000...used frequent flier miles to Bankok.

I'm looking at a budget $16K withdrawls for one person....but I like to stay in beach locations for extended time periods waiting for perfect waves I have lived on $800-$1200 per month in Costs Rica, Panama, Nicaragua, El Salvador. I know people that go much lower than this....just depends on how low your comfortable with.

Surfs Up

 

[Surfs_Up]

Hyperborea,
If your willing to travel as the Terhorst do....using public transportation, not overspending on accomodations, staying longer in cheaper places (ie Thailand, Costa Rica, Mexico, not Switzerland)......and focus most of your monthly budget on food/drink, travel, and entertainment, it looks like you could shave (at least) a few years off your plan. I'm thinking of a PT lifestyle on a little less than 400K net worth (but I'm single). I want to be young and healthy enough to surf the best waves in the world while I'm a PT.......so it makes sense for me to do cut out early (39) It's all about choices. See my posts in the introduction area of this site for further PT ideas.

Surfs Up

 

[notTwain]

I think I'd have to work my way up to PT .... not exactly an easy feeling to have all of a sudden. The Terhorsts actually eased into it after establishing a home base in Argentina.

I fully relate to Surfs Up - divorced, no kids, 41, with a desire to surf, ski, motorcycle cruise, and travel around these great states also in a fixed up van - I like the idea of having a home base here in so cal and I plan on traveling around up to 5 different destinations a year. My budget is pretty cool - more like a dream but I budget about $2000 for each trip. The great thing is that the trips will last as long as the $2000 goes. So in Thailand - that'd be about 6 weeks, for Japan, maybe a couple weeks. Europe - maybe 3 weeks and Argentina would be a good month.

The start of FIRE would be fixing up the house for a good sale - but what's irking me is the fact that we may be peaking in the housing market and it may make sense to just sell now - but I long to hang out for a few years since I'm in a great locale around Redondo Beach.

notTwain

 

[Hyperborea]

Hyperborea,
If your willing to travel as the Terhorst do....using public transportation, not overspending on accomodations, staying longer in cheaper places (ie Thailand, Costa Rica, Mexico, not Switzerland)......and focus most of your monthly budget on food/drink, travel, and entertainment, it looks like you could shave (at least) a few years off your plan.

Yeah, if I planned on say US$24K / year that would only require US$600K at 4% plus perhaps US$200K for the retirement pad (possibly big city condo) and I only need US$800K. That would shave a few years off.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it chops off 3 years and lets me retire 3 years earlier. That's a big plus. What are the negatives?

I think that US$24K/year might be cutting it close for costs. What fraction of your year must be spent in cheap locations? I would love to spend time travelling more through China and go to Eastern Europe but I would also like to hang out in Western Europe too.

I know that the Terhorsts and perhaps the Kaderlis go without health insurance. That seems a bit risky to me. Can you still afford health insurance on US$24K? To counter that I know that health costs outside the US can be quite a bit cheaper and still very good (e.g. I paid US$10 for doctor and medicine to treat an ear infection in China). I also have access to socialized medicine in 3 countries though there is an initial waiting period after I return before I can use them so not good for emergency care but not bad for an ongoing condition if one arises.

Another problem is that it potentially locks us into that lifestyle. A low series of returns and withdrawing near the 4% margin means that one may have to spend much of the rest of their days in Uzbekistan until their SS and/or similar from other countries kicks in. A few years out of the computer industry in your 40's and it will be difficult to find high paying work (perhaps any decent paying work).

It's also only 3 years and once you're at that point you know that you could go any time so it should be easier. You won't have to keep self-studying to keep up with the technology if you don't want to since what you know should hold you for the 3 years and you could work closer to 40 hours. That will give you back part of the week and the psychological impact should relieve a lot of stress too.

Well, I won't even be to that point for a few years so I guess I'll just keep moving on and see what I feel like and the resources are like then. However, I'm still interested in actual costs and lifestyle from experience.

 

[MJ]

I plan to retire in about 8 months at 57 and I am also interested in being part time PT and gradually doing it full time.
I too would feel at risk without reasonable health insurance.

Is there any reputable and reliable worldwide insurance?

Unless a miracle happens and I find a terrific female PT with her own nest egg, I'll probably wind up doing it alone.

Anyone have any thoughts about a single travelling as a "stranger in a strange land".

MJ

 

[haha]

Anyone have any thoughts about a single travelling as a "stranger in a strange land".MJ  

Depends on where you are. A younger woman traveling alone meets plenty of people, maybe more than she might sometimes want.

A middle aged guy can meet people if he is outgoing, and hangs around long enought to integrate himself somehat into the local life. Otherwise he may meet mostly hookers and hustlers of various kinds.

One easy way is to attend a popular language school. You will be thrown together with lots of people of both sexes who are similarly away from their home bases. It is easier if the others are lonesome too!

I can get seriously lonesome in a foreign country. Even though I know that I will probably come to like it very much, I usually have pretty intense culture shock at first.

Mikey

 

[MJ]

I can get seriously lonesome in a foreign country.

Mikey.
Can I assume that you are doing a lot foreigh country travelling. If yes, what is your average stay?

Otherwise he may meet mostly hookers and hustlers of various kinds.

I would want romantic companionship not quick sexual encounters (well maybe once in awhile).

MJ

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Can we presume "Once in a while" to mean "No more than once or twice per day" ?

 

[MJ]

Can we presume "Once in a while" to mean "No more than once or twice per day" ?

Only on an off day, normally, it would be at least 4 to 5 times per .....

Oh, sorry, I was day dreaming again.

MJ

 

[Hyperborea]

I too would feel at risk without reasonable health insurance.

Is there any reputable and reliable worldwide insurance?

I've looked around a little bit and what I see is that most of the coverage is from non-US firms.  There are two types that would be of use to a PT depending on how PT they are: coverage for travel up to about 6-12 months; and coverage for expats that has no time limitation.  The cost varies based on age, deductible with somewhere around $2000 or $3000 bringing the biggest drop in cost, and how long you will be in the US.  Many plans will have two categories of coverage: one that allows unlimited time in the US; and one that has restrictions on amount of time in the US.  The US time restrictions vary by insurance company with some of them only allowing no more than 48 hours in a one month period (i.e. enough to change planes) and some allow up to 2 months in a one year period.  The unlimited time in the US plans cost a lot more.

For my guesstimate FIRE age of mid-40's it would cost about $2-3K / year to cover my wife and I with $2500 deductible insurance.  The numbers more than double if I include significant US coverage.  $2-3K is a good sized chunk of a barebones $24K PT retirement income. $5-7K for a US based FIREee would be even worse.

If you want to explore this just google using "international health insurance"

 

[MJ]

$2-3K is a good sized chunk of a barebones $24K PT retirement income. $5-7K for a US based FIREee would be even worse.

As a single, I will be able to afford about $5k for insurance. I hope to have conservatively $35k to 40k for the next 5 years until SS kicks in with an additional $15k (today's dollars).

Thanks for the info.

MJ

 

[Billy]

Billy and I have been PT's for 14 years now, with very little if any "easing
into" that lifestyle after our ER at 38 years of age in 1991.

We personally love the lifestyle, and find very little hardship with it
since we don't deprive ourselves. I want to make clear that we DO have
health insurance, however it is catastrophic insurance, with a high
deductible. We don't have anything fancy with discounts on meds, cheap
co-pays or any of that cha cha. We are healthy because we are active, take
responsibility for our health, our health care, and we ask questions of the
doctors!!.

We also take advantage of doctors' services in foreign countries, since we
are overseas probably 8 months out of every year.

When we travel overseas in countries that are "expensive" (Australia/New
Zealand at $100 per day for 3 months) we balance that with 4 months in a
"cheaper" location like Asia (Thailand, Laos, Vietnam, China, Burma at $35
per day.) Do the math, and you will find that this comes to under $23,000
expenses a year, and yes, this includes air transportation, health
insurance, rented apartments with harbor views, New Zealand lamb and wines, Thai massages
etc. Again, we do not deprive ourselves, we are disciplined.

When we travel, we focus on getting the most bang for the buck, asking for
weekly rental fees instead of daily, monthly rental fees instead of weekly.

When we are in the States, we also live in a high amenity, low maintenance
resort location -- and I do mean HIGH amenity - swimming pools, hot tub, tennis
courts, community clubhouse, etc. and this is actually one of our
"cheaper" locations. So, yes it can be done and done comfortably.

Now, I may also be speaking out of turn, and I hope the ladies won't hate
me, but if a guy is a single ERee, PT, (and is actually a good guy), then it
won't be too much of a problem in finding women in some foreign countries as
companions. American lifestyle expectations are very high., and there is
much pressure on everyone (men and women alike) to subscribe to this. In
many foreign countries these same high expectations are just not there.

I like the suggestion of taking language classes, cooking classes, doing
community volunteer work, etc. and you will meet "higher caliber" foreign
women to keep you company.

Good luck. It's a great lifestyle, and it can be done.
Akaisha Kaderli
website www.geocities.com/ba264

 

[haha]

Now, I may also be speaking out of turn, and I hope the ladies won't hate
me, but if a guy is a single ERee, PT, (and is actually a good guy), then it won't be too much of a problem in finding women in some foreign countries as companions.

What a great post!

But sometimes those companions you find can involve you in unusual situations.

Some years ago I was working in an Andean country known for its processing of agricultural products and its high murder rate. I met a lovely young woman from a nice family. Actually, a drop dead, outta sight, 10+ Sabrosita We went riding, dancing at the club, swimming. All very posh, at least for a river rat like me.

Alas, all good things come to an end. We had our sorrowful parting and I returned to big eastern city USA.

I got a few letters that were a bit stronger than I expected, but wrote back that I was very busy now and probably wouldn't be able to keep up much correspondence. Next thing I get a phone call from her cousin, I'll call him Ernesto, and he was that. I had no idea she had a cousin in the US. Ernesto thought that we should spend a day together. I took him up to Cape Ann, and we sat around on boulders talking about how great Andean Country was.

No, I told him, I didn't think I was ready for marriage at this time. Low paying job, no ambition, poor prospects, bad study habits.

For the next 3 months, my apartment got broken into at least once every couple of weeks. Nothing taken, but always my financial records strewn about, and nice little touches like a bolo knife across my bed. Oh yeah, some of my photos from the time in SA were stolen. Others ripped up and left.

I took to keeping a shotgun in my trunk of my old Chevrolet. I'd come home, drive around the block, and park. Then I'd take my shotgun and walk around my place. If no signs of illegal entry, I 'd carefully go in. If the door was broken in, I'd walk down to the sub shop on the corner, and call the police. I got to know the Roxbury detectives pretty well.

My landlord got tired of replacing doors and windows, as well as door jambs. So I got evicted. My girlfriend figured I was radioactive. So I put my stuff in storage and lived in my car for 6 weeks or so. Not easy to do.

Finally, I moved into a group home!!! I didn't mention my recent difficulty. And it turned out OK, because whatever weird motive was behind all this stuff, it stopped just as suddenly as it started.

I never really know what was happening, but I had a strong suspicion it had something to do with Ernesto.

Anyhow, these days I am older, and although no wiser, at least more circumspect and aware of cultural differences.

My Andean friends just laughed and said-"We told you to stick to hookers!"

Mikey

 

[Surfs_Up]

Akaisha ,
Thanks for blazing the trail. Great info !


Hyperborea,
I'm pricing out some PT health care options and have so far narrowed it down to the following....Blue Shield PPO 40 (high deductible catastrophic) and World Nomad health insurance (for emergency care or life flight). I can get both of these for a total of $99 a month.

Surfs Up

 

[Surfs_Up]

Akaisha,
Thanks for all the details on your budget. I'm curious how you keep your expenses below $23K (for 2) for the year and spend 3-4 months every year in the US? Do you own an apartment or do you rent inexpensively in the US? I would think things like condo association fees, car insurance, car tabs, car depeciation....would add up. Selling my truck and getting rid of all associated costs was one of the keys to making my numbers work. I'm looking at PT on $400K net worth (1 person) with $16K yearly withdrawls. I was initially thinking of not having a home base for now to stay on the conservative (budget) side for the first few years. You guys are an inspiration to all potential PTs.

Thanks,

Surfs Up

 

[nwsteve]

When we are in the States, we also live in a high amenity, low maintenance
resort location -- and I do mean HIGH amenity - swimming pools, hot tub, tennis
courts, community clubhouse,  etc. and this is actually one of our
"cheaper" locations.  So, yes it can be done and done comfortably.

Akaisha/Billy
Can you tell us some more what part of the US you came up with a high amenity, resort location with inexpensive living? How did you go about locating?
Are you owners in a condo, extended time-share weeks, or ??. Are there off season?
Thanks
nwsteve

 

[haha]

I'm looking at PT on $400K net worth (1 person) with $16K yearly withdrawls.

Think Bangladesh!

Mikey

 

[Hyperborea]

Akaisha, thank you very much for your input.

For your US$100 / day budget in "expensive" countries are you mostly staying in longer term rentals? I've just been looking into hotels in Italy for my upcoming trip and most that I see are 60-80 Euros (US$75-100) a night. That doesn't leave much left for anything else. On the $35 / day for "poorer" countries I think that it is pretty easy to do. I've done it myself in a few places and below by quite a bit but that didn't include "overhead" (insurance, flights, etc.).

I'm pricing out some PT health care options and have so far narrowed it down to the following....Blue Shield PPO 40 (high deductible catastrophic) and World Nomad health insurance (for emergency care or life flight).  I can get both of these for a total of $99 a month.

That's about $1200 / year for one and then $2400 / year for two which is roughly where my numbers place the coverage that I find. In my cursory examination however, the combo you've got above doesn't seem to provide adequate coverage for a lot of different things such as drugs which can become very expensive. It also looks like it will require you to return to the US for anything other than emergency care.

I get a quote of $367 for a 12 month Nomad policy that excludes the US and Japan (the BS PPO40 should catch the US stuff). For the BS PPO40 I get $68, $72, and $83 using 39 as the age. The $68 one doesn't include any drugs. That and the Nomad make $98. Those coverages seem awful skimpy to me particularly for someone who has no socialized health care backups for anything serious and/or chronic. Plus the BS rates rise pretty quickly at ages beyond 39.

The coverage I found seems a lot better. Sure it limits US coverage (60 days per year) but then I don't plan on being in the US all that much if at all other than to change planes. Once I FIRE I'll be leaving the US and will return little if at all. I'm not a US citizen and neither is my wife.

Here is one that I found:
http://www.healthcareinternational.com/home-international-insurance.php

I've also heard good things about BUPA but they don't seem to have an instant online quote.
http://www.bupa-intl.com/home/index.asp

 

[MJ]

Akaisha, thanks for your wonderful and frank reply regarding single PT.
It's a pleasure reading the opinions and experiences of others like yourself that give someone like myself further support that my ER PT lifestyle can be successful and rewarding. Just 7 to 8 months to go. Seems like a lifetime.

For those of us with questions, some of them can be answers from Akaisha/Billy's website.
It also has photographs of Billy and beautiful Akaisha.

http://www.geocities.com/ba264/20questions.htm


Cheers.

MJ

 

[Billy]

Hi guys,
We will try to answer your questions, but most are covered on our web-site www.geocities.com/ba264

Regarding living in a low cost high amenity locale, take a look at RV Resorts. They usually have low annual rates, with a ton of amenities. We like to enjoy the amenities WITHOUT the maintenance. Pools, spa, tennis, billiards, cards, library, club house, workout rooms, computer rooms with high speed and WiFi access, craft rooms, and shuffleboard for when we get older. And you meet some interesting travelers and adventurous folks. We have seen them with golf courses and baseball diamonds with electronic scoreboards, well just about anything you might want for your active new lifestyle.

No, you do not have to own an RV. Many places have what are called park models that can be bought or rented. (caution, they do not increase in value, at least that has been our experience, so we call them throw away housing. )

We discovered these places while RV'ing, and are currently basing in the southwest.

Regarding rentals etc. in far away lands, take a look at popular guide books to get started, then once there, ask around about longer term rentals. Everybody knows someone with a place to rent. For the most part, the stuff listed on the internet tends to be higher prices, so do not let that stop you. Plus, we like to see the place and the location before deciding.

Flights can eat up $$$$ so plan well. Or take local buses. They are almost always inexpensive. Another choice is to buy multi-stop or around the world tickets. And don't forget to sign up for miles programs.

Follow your dreams,
Billy & Akaisha
Website www.geocities.com/ba264

 

[unclemick]

One of my doughnut shop cohorts - retired motor pool sargent - WHO doesn't own a car - lives in the 'permanent' section of an RV park in a mobile home. Can't make up his mind to stay local or spent his extra cash on a small RV.

The park has all the usual stuff - plus shuttles to the French Quarter, Casino's, Airport, and several Eco - swamp tours.

His new neighbor is retired Air Force - which I think he enjoys feuding with - IMHO.

 

[MJ]

Regarding living in a low cost high amenity locale, take a look at RV Resorts. They usually have low annual rates, with a ton of amenities. We like to enjoy the amenities WITHOUT the maintenance.

Hi Billy,
Is the quote from your web page below describe the RV resorts above.

DO YOU OWN A HOUSE?

We have a low maintenance, high amenity humble abode. This comfortable place in an adult resort community satisfies our needs completely when we are in the States.

 

[Billy]

Hi Surfs Up,

Billy and I "allow" ourselves $2,000 a month for
expenses - sometimes we are over, sometimes we are under. This includes all airfare, health insurance, rents, car repairs and so on. One thing we learned was that over time, this averages out. We are going on 14 years of data, (4965 days) and over that span, our expenses are $56.14 per day.

We own a small place in a resort area, with an older vehicle, that we put on "storage status" insurance rate when we travel for lengthy periods. We don't use our vehicle much, as we enjoy walking, sometimes even to the grocery store, using a small backpack to bring items back.

Since we used to own a restaurant, we love cooking for ourselves (and do so quite excellently, I might add) so we are foodies, and it is a form of entertainment for ourselves. We live a simple life with simple pleasure,
and we love it.

I am an artist of sorts, so hours are often spent in creative time, we get books from the library, or read online. We take photographs while traveling, and that takes creative time as well. And we both play tennis, a fabulous, inexpensive sport, with lightweight equipment that we often take with us to foreign countries. A great way to meet locals!

Often, while in the States, we will visit with family and friends (on both east and west coasts) so this mixes it up for us, gives us alternatives for places to stay, and meeting people. When in foreign countries we do
apartments instead of hotels whenever possible, pay monthly rents instead of weekly, and weekly instead of daily - you get the idea. We are not tourists, we become locals.

We don't bother to buy name brand clothing, don't have high priced toys, and our needs are simple. We travel, we enjoy each other's company, we have friends, we eat well, we exercise. We take local transport whenever possible, walk, have a friend pick us up and donate gas $$.

We are not on a budget, but we do monitor our expenses. We're both kind of "nerdy", so we love numbers, and I can pull up a report in moments on what our food, housing, or travel expenses in any town have been.

Hey, it works for us! And it really is fun and satisfying. I hope this helps!

The best to you all ways,
Akaisha
Website www.geocities.com/ba264