Delaying SS OR take IRA distributions early

I didn't try modeling it, beyond looking at what would happen if I left my IRA untouched and delayed SS to age 70 as longevity insurance (for my wife; remember how benefits interact.) With it untouched, and adding in distributions from taxable accounts, SS was heavily taxed. If I tapped the IRA from 59 1/2, then with taxable distributions I could still keep taxable income quite low, run down the IRA, and keep most of SS tax-free past age 70.

So that's the plan for me.

I am starting to lean that way. I think I'll spend the next 5 year being more aggressive about converting my T-IRA into a ROTH fill up the 25% bracket at least. Then start withdrawals from the T-IRA at 59.5. I'll still plan on delay SS until 70, but I still not convinced that taking it at 62,and keeping the money in IRA may not result in higher wealth for me/heirs unless I live to be near 90.

This would be a pretty cool calculator if somebody wanted to build it, essentially take the output of FIRECALC and with some assumptions about present and future taxes....
 
This would be a pretty cool calculator if somebody wanted to build it, essentially take the output of FIRECALC and with some assumptions about present and future taxes....
+1. And if it included the impact of various courses of action on PPACA subsidies, that would be a bonus. Those tIRA -> Roth conversions are going to put some folks above the 400% of the FPL cutoff--even $1 over the line = "no soup for you!"
 
+1. And if it included the impact of various courses of action on PPACA subsidies, that would be a bonus. Those tIRA -> Roth conversions are going to put some folks above the 400% of the FPL cutoff--even $1 over the line = "no soup for you!"

Thanks for the reminder.
This thread has me wondering if I am doing right by only TIRA - Roth conversion so that I don't pay Fed tax when others are burning through the 10% and 25% range? I can't guess at what the answer would be so I ran some numbers.

1st I assume the worst case scenario (for taxes). 7% return and no more Roth conversions. I am 58. This brings our TIRA up to about $500k by the time I am 70-1/2. RMD on this starts at $20k.
The taxes in this plus our SSA and a few dividend and capital gains came out to about a thousand dollars. $11k of SS income was taxable and total spending money for this instance was $68k for the year.

So the answer is, my situation does not cause concern and worse case is the 10% tax bracket without conversions. I will continue the Roth conversions so long as I don't have to pay fed taxes.
Another reason to go easy on conversions is the health care thing as noted above.
Yet another reason is that most believe that I dollar is move valuable when you are 60 versus when you are 80 years old.
 
This can be complicated. Even more complicated if you live in certain states. Here in Georgia most income is taxed at 6%. Starting in the year you turn 62, which is next year for us 35K per person of retirement income is excluded from state taxation. Starting in the year you turn 65 the exclusion increases to 65K of retirement income for each person. They use a very liberal definition of retirement income including pensions, SS, investment income and withdrawals from retirement plans. In our case our pensions plus a small annuity will put us near the top of the 15% federal income tax bracket and just over the state income retirement income exclusion so we will do no IRA-Roth conversions until we turn 65. The year we turn 65 we will start making IRA to Roth conversions up to the top of our state income tax exclusion and delay taking SS until as much $$ as possible is converted to the Roth accounts.
 
Because there are so many variables, there is no one plan that best fits all the people. Everyone should evaluate their own situation and determine what is best for them. By estimating your future situation you can make a better plan at this time.
 
Specifically for my situation, with my own software code and assumptions...

I found that giving up the $2500 tuition tax credit (160k-180k AGI) and one $6500 Roth contribution (178k-188k AGI) (my tIRA screws up the backdoor, but DW can still do it) is worth it if I Roth convert more than $40k this year. That's the break-even point. However, if I fully optimize this year's Roth conversion at something like $131k converted, that results in a whopping $100/year additional spending throughout retirement compared to sticking at $160k AGI and picking up the credits. Next year these credits won't apply (DS graduates and DW retires I hope), so the more Roth the better unless I can make a case for ACA subsidies.

I've said it before, making substantial Roth conversions has always looked like a big retirement income booster any way I looked at it. The exact details of how you do it is much less important.
 
I've said it before, making substantial Roth conversions has always looked like a big retirement income booster any way I looked at it. The exact details of how you do it is much less important.
In my non-detailed analysis that I did a while back, I accidentally discovered that moving to a non-income tax state made a MUCH bigger difference than Roth conversions. It was an "all other things being equal" ASSumption, but still, the difference was huge! It seems like optimizing on finer and finer points is what I tend to do, but I'm trying to convince myself that just knowing what the various levers are, I can do an ok job without getting down to the whopping $100 savings items :)
 
In my non-detailed analysis that I did a while back, I accidentally discovered that moving to a non-income tax state made a MUCH bigger difference than Roth conversions. It was an "all other things being equal" ASSumption, but still, the difference was huge! It seems like optimizing on finer and finer points is what I tend to do, but I'm trying to convince myself that just knowing what the various levers are, I can do an ok job without getting down to the whopping $100 savings items :)

sengsational,

What was the state tax rate for you pre-move? (I'm assuming 0 post-move.)

omni
 
...(snip)...

What Rick fails to mention is if you followed conventional wisdom you also delayed taking social security (for at least one spouse) until age 70. Because SS benefit increase pretty rapidly a working couple that take SS at age 70 can easily get another $50-70K in SS benefits. This means that you'll see a spike in income of more than $200K for a couple when they turn 70 and the tax bracket will shoot up from say 15% to 33%.

So here is the interesting dilemma. Conventional wisdom is you withdraw money from tax deferred account last to maximize the benefits of tax free compounding. Conventional wisdom is that you delay SS, because this is the least expensive COLA adjusted annuity you can purchase.

I am pretty sure that conventional wisdom is correct in both cases if these were strictly independent decisions, but they are not. If you do both you'll end up with a big spike in income at age 70. I haven't done any calculations, but my estimate is that tax wise you are much better off smoothing your income in your 60s than seeing a big spike in the 70s.

The question is which is the better approach, withdrawing money from your IRA and/or doing a ROTH conversion or taking SS at full retirement age or possible even at 62. Or even more fundamentally how do you go about modeling this question?
I don't know who's conventional wisdom is mentioned in the OP.

Ours was to do aggressive Roth conversions before starting SS. So we payed at a moderate tax rate up to SS rather then sitting around enjoying a near zero rate. But I think the long term picture will work in our favor. Also I have come to dismiss the idea to hold off SS until late in retirement but that's a personal and highly tax dependent situation. My projections are we will be paying moderate taxes in the future although we can only guess at the tax policy.

Circumstances change too. Before the 2008 equity decline we had a different plan. One just has to be flexible.
 
sengsational,

What was the state tax rate for you pre-move? (I'm assuming 0 post-move.)

omni
7% in North Carolina, and no breaks for retirement income. Plus, I've got family and spent a lot of time in Florida growing up (at least then I didn't even notice the heat and humidty). Being selective on location, you can find some reasonable property taxes there too.
 
Great thread, don't know how I missed it first time around.

I am building my own spreadsheets to model options and I've been told I'm pretty good with Excel, but the complexity is almost endless...sigh. I may seek professional help.
 
Same problem here. SS and MRD hit at 70 if I continue with my plan.

Currently, I have about $1 in Roth IRA for every $5 in a tIRA. I plan to convert over the next few years until I have at least $2 in Roth for every $4 in tIRA. My thinking is that the extra Roth money will allow me to look later in the year at things like marginal tax rates and hopefully avoid being bumped up into a higher one by switching my withdrawals to the Roth IRA. I want some flexibility in choosing what source I tap for funds - regular $$, tIRA $$, or Roth $$.
 
If I only do 0% LTCG and/or Roth conversions to 400% FPL from 2014 until I am 70, I expect to slightly break into the 25% tax bracket (adjusted for inflation) when I begin SS. However, since that is so far away and there are some many moving parts, if I am slightly in the 25% bracket then I will view it as a nice problem to have.

I don't see much sense in losing Obamacare subsidies and paying more in taxes now to possibly save later since a lot can happen in the next 10 years. I'll take my chances.
 
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I figure I'll have 9 years to to do Roth conversions and initially will just use up the 15% tax bracket. At some point, I may use up the 25% tax bracket, if it looks like it will help me avoid 25% for several years after age 70.5. I'm certain we'll be into the 25% tax bracket after RMDs if we do nothing.
 
I figure I'll have 9 years to to do Roth conversions and initially will just use up the 15% tax bracket. At some point, I may use up the 25% tax bracket, if it looks like it will help me avoid 25% for several years after age 70.5. I'm certain we'll be into the 25% tax bracket after RMDs if we do nothing.
Sounds a lot like our situation, and we have 11-13 years to figure out what's best, likely the sooner the better...recognizing there is no absolutely correct answer.
 
If I only do 0% LTCG and/or Roth conversions to 400% FPL from 2014 until I am 70, I expect to slightly break into the 25% tax bracket (adjusted for inflation) when I begin SS. However, since that is so far away and there are some many moving parts, if I am slightly in the 25% bracket then I will view it as a nice problem to have.

I don't see much sense in losing Obamacare subsidies and paying more in taxes now to possible save later since a lot can happen in the next 10 years. I'll take my chances.

pb4uski:

Question: Don't you only have to be concerned about the 400% FPL until you are 65 because you will then be on Medicare?

Thanks,
Mark
 
pb4uski:

Question: Don't you only have to be concerned about the 400% FPL until you are 65 because you will then be on Medicare?

Thanks,
Mark

Yes, you are right! I knew that but forgot. I added that nuance to my spreadsheet but I'll still be in 25% from 70 to 90 and 15% thereafter so it helps a bit.

But then I also added maximum HSA contributions from now until age 65 (which reduces my O-MAGI and increase my Roth conversions without breaching 400% FPL) I will be in the 25% tax bracket only from 70 to 78.
 
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But then I also added maximum HSA contributions from now until age 65 (which reduces my O-MAGI and increase my Roth conversions without breaching 400% FPL) I will be in the 25% tax bracket only from 70 to 78.
Aren't you ASSUMING that the exchange plans will have HSA style plans...I know that HSA barely made it under the new thresholds for coverage, but they may only be available outside of the exchange?
 
AFAIK no problems with HSA eligibility in state exchanges. It's up to each state to determine what kind of coverage they want. RI has already announced HSA plans.
 
teejayevans said:
Aren't you ASSUMING that the exchange plans will have HSA style plans...I know that HSA barely made it under the new thresholds for coverage, but they may only be available outside of the exchange?

Yes and I already know that my state will have HSA plans available.
 
Great thread, don't know how I missed it first time around.

I am building my own spreadsheets to model options and I've been told I'm pretty good with Excel, but the complexity is almost endless...sigh. I may seek professional help.

+1 re probably seeking professional help. Losing my mind around estimating taxes due to RMD's and desire to delay SS to 70. Already have more than $2 of every 3 in after tax accounts, with a bit of that in roth. Considering tIRA to roth conversions from age 60-70. And spreadsheets? They are not my friend...
 
I am not the person you were responding to but I could make case for tax rates potentially being lower in the future.

Possibility 1 -

There is a move among some to simplify the tax code, reducing overall marginal rates, and possibly collapsing them to fewer ranges. Doing this and still raising similar revenue would undoubtedly require a number of deductions to go away and/or require a hard cap on itemized deductions. While changing the tax code in this measure might be designed to raise the same revenue (or more or less), some people would end up paying more and some would end up paying less. However, it is certainly possible that the tax rates for a particular income could be less.

Possibility 2 -

I tend to think Possibility 1 is more likely. However, various people have floated the idea of some sort of VAT or national sales tax with a corresponding reduction in income tax rates. This might even be combined with Possibility 1. We all seem to think of future tax rates with the idea that US government basically collects income taxes. However, it could be that income taxes would be reduced with some sort of other tax coming in to replace some or all of the revenue.
Possibility 1: In the United States of America:confused::confused: Not in my wildest dreams.
Possibility 2: Strong possibility of a VAT, IMHO, but income taxes will NEVER be reduced.
 
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+1 re probably seeking professional help.
Don't get discouraged. You can do it as well as they can.

Find good tax software and try several scenarios. Good tax software should be able to warn you about the AMT.

All we can do is assume that future tax rules will be the same as today. Of course, they will not, but we are only looking for differences between alternatives to give us a strategy.

I have been assuming a simple return of 6% for everything, an estimated 3% inflation rate, a SS annual increase of 2% and no outside income. An estimated first year income after taxes comes from FIREcalc and is increased 3% a year. I take no account of the value of the house (we would get a one-time Mulligan on capital gains--two, one for each of us, if we downsize and sell twice and we both live that long). Also both of us life to 100. More on assumptions later.

I use a fairly simple spreadsheet to keep track of the cases year by year. It includes a column for tIRA balance, tIRA withdrawals, SS income (from our annual SS reports), total income from the last two, taxes to be paid on that, after-tax income, how much of after-tax income is moved to the Roth and Roth balance. On a second page, I look at each year, with columns for SS, income from tIRA (100% taxable), and the income tax calculated for the total income. (Deductions are assumed to be the same in all cases.) The amount of tIRA withdrawn is incremented in successive rows in even steps. The income tax for each case is calculated using the tax prep software. The last column calculates the marginal % tax rate between steps. This column tells me when to stop withdrawing from my tIRA each year. That info goes back to the first page (manually). On the first page again, when the tIRA is exhausted, the deficit in the inflation-adjusted after-tax income is made up by withdrawing from the Roth. I sum all the income taxes paid to age 100. I then look at the balances of the tIRA and Roth at 100 years.

The calculations are tedious because there is a bit of manual work, but the tax software does the heavy lifting.

The simple answer is that the payoff for converting tIRA to Roth is big, especially if it can be done before RMDs start at 70.5. I looked at withdrawals from the tIRA to the top of the 0%, 15% and 25% tax brackets. I am still checking my calcs, but it looks like the more I convert and the earlier I convert, the better. What happens in the first 10 years makes a big difference. There are several cases where we lose to inflation (can't maintain 3% increase in after-tax income until 100) and where we run out of money in the tIRA and Roth accounts well before 100. Typically, this warns me that we are starting with too high a draw.

The simplifying assumptions work well enough to give us a strategy. Remember, we are only looking for DIFFERENCES between methods. The things that don't change don't matter. Of course, we will do the taxes every year with the current rules. The assumptions are conservative. If we make more money, we pay more taxes. No problem.

The big attraction for me is that potentially we could have zero taxable income and be freed from making quarterly payments or even filing. :D:D:D We could be protected from many possible future tax increases and rules. Of course, they could always tax Roths, but I suspect that other things would happen first.

Again, do not be discouraged. It is not as hard as you may think.
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[FONT=&quot] Also both of us life to 100. [/FONT]
This assumption could sabotage your retirement plans. The real longevity risk is not that you both live to 100. The real risk is that one of you (probably the wife) lives to 100 and the other one dies early. Instead of two SS incomes and a low tax rate, suddenly the survivor has one SS income and a high tax rate. Look at the tables for single vs married joint and you will see what happens. Although the cost of living goes down slightly when there is just one, this is probably equalized by the loss of one SS income. There are the same RMDs, so the survivor now is probably taxed on their SS as well as paying at the higher rate.

When running our portfolios through the different planners, this is the case that forces the survivor to pay huge taxes. Maximizing roth conversions to lower the RMDs is definitely important. It is also important to make sure spending assumes this worse case scenario. You don't want to spend too much early on assuming taxes will not eat away at your savings and then the worse happens and the surviror is stuck paying away their savings in taxes.

I can't stress enough how important this assumption is!
 
Possibility 1: In the United States of America:confused::confused: Not in my wildest dreams.
Possibility 2: Strong possibility of a VAT, IMHO, but income taxes will NEVER be reduced.

Never say NEVER :) Lots of economists believe taxing labor and using the tax code to influence behavior is inefficient and hurts job creation.

Possibility 3 of course is that Congress decides that "rich" people who own Roth IRAs should have to pay tax on them anyway. It is legislation after all, which can be changed. I would expect when the deficit hits the $30 - $40 Trillion range that they will be looking for more revenue and hitting retirement accounts will be easier than hitting Social Security, but who knows.

Still over 20 years out for me until RMD, so I am taking the bird in the hand vs. betting on the future and maxing out all current tax deductible options. If anything is left after that I hit a ROTH to hedge my bets some.
 
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