Department Store Closures...

[marko]

OTOH, here is a head scratcher: While the indoor malls have been hurting for a few years, here in New England where the weather is awful 50% of the time, new, large outdoor malls have spring up and are thriving. Granted, they are upscale but I would never guess that theyd do well when you cant shop in comfort.

 

[audreyh1]

This seems so logical. However, it is much different than my experience. Stores are not only under staffed, they are inadequately stocked. I doubt I could even find my size if I went shoe shopping. I go to Zappos or Shoes.com and they have every style and size I could imagine. If my normal size doesn’t fit for some reason or, I just don’t like the shoe, I can send it back for free. For me, that’s a quick trip to the UPS store which takes about ten minutes round trip. Usually, the shoes don’t differ from my size and I’m all set.

I don’t know how a store can compete with that. About the only thing a store has is immediacy if they have your style and size. I’ve not needed a pair of shoes that quickly in a long time. I hope your DW sees the light some day. She could literally have several pairs shipped to her to try on in the comfort of your home and have such a better selection. She just has to see and try them on before she “keeps” them. Totally possible via online retail.

I usually just reorder new of what I have, but I also have ordered multiple sizes and selected which fit the best, returning the rest.

If something doesn’t fit, I just drop by a close Kohl’s to do my Amazon return and Kohl’s give me a generous coupon for in store shopping. I occasionally need socks or something.

 

[disneysteve]

OTOH, here is a head scratcher: While the indoor malls have been hurting for a few years, here in New England where the weather is awful 50% of the time, new, large outdoor malls have spring up and are thriving. Granted, they are upscale but I would never guess that theyd do well when you cant shop in comfort.

We have some of those here in NJ, too. I guess people like the open air layout better. And COVID has probably made that even more desirable.


It is nice to be able to pull up and park right outside the store you want and not have to walk all through the mall so there is a convenience factor with the outdoor malls.

 

[audreyh1]

DW and I buy everything we can online, but we still don’t buy shoes online unless we are replacing the exact same shoe. We had a friend who would order as many as 10 pairs of shoes and then she’d return what she didn’t like/fit - she routinely returned 8-9 pairs - and thought nothing of it. We always saw that as dishonest, as all buyers are paying for all the excess shipping, it’s not free. But I am sure we’ll be buying more shoes online eventually...

Yet the store explicitly encourages this by offering free returns. They make it clear that if something doesn’t work out they’ll take it back. They are totally above board about this, and they can choose to limit or start charging for excess returns at any time.

 

[audreyh1]

OTOH, here is a head scratcher: While the indoor malls have been hurting for a few years, here in New England where the weather is awful 50% of the time, new, large outdoor malls have spring up and are thriving. Granted, they are upscale but I would never guess that theyd do well when you cant shop in comfort.

I much prefer this. I really don’t like to walk though the wide mall halls with junky booths crowding the center and slow walking crowds moving through, and it’s loud! It’s quite annoying.

 

[MichaelB]

Is it possible the businesses shown in the OP - Macy’s, Sears, JC Penny, closed their stores because they have too many locations, lost touch with their consumer base, and can’t compete with many new retail businesses?

Amazon is growing but isn’t necessarily the cause of the demise of those businesses. More likely causes IMO, in addition to poor management, is too many square feet of retail space combined. The businesses themselves have been losing share for years, but easy money from capital markets keep them afloat, like the walking dead.

 

[Aerides]

OTOH, here is a head scratcher: While the indoor malls have been hurting for a few years, here in New England where the weather is awful 50% of the time, new, large outdoor malls have spring up and are thriving. Granted, they are upscale but I would never guess that theyd do well when you cant shop in comfort.

Outdoor malls are also more easily accessed. If I want to go to only a certain store:
Indoor mall: Figure out the nearest entrance, drive around and park, walk thru the mall, etc.
Outdoor mall: Often has parallel and street parking, usually can find within eyesight of the store I want, I can do "in and out" a whole lot quicker.

 

[Freedom56]

This is a great point that we don't hear nearly enough. The internet has made it possible for millions of people to start their own business without having to pay the overhead required for a B&M location.

Over time you will start to hear more about the resurgence of small business operating out of their homes or storage lockers to keep overhead low. One of our neighbors has small business as a medical supply distributor. About 10 years ago she told me that she was tired of paying so much rent for office and storage space that she rarely used since she was on the road most of the time seeing clients. I suggested that she ditch the office and move her inventory into her home which she proceeded to do six months later. She said it was the best move she ever made and saved a significant amount of money which she used in part to undercut prices against her larger competitors. Big box stores like Home Depot have wiped out small hardware stores. However many of them have found that they can sell products online and undercut Home Depot and Lowes. Many small retailers have learned that they too can buy popular products directly from China and resell them at lower prices than large retailers. I used to buy a lot from Home Depot and Lowes, but these days other than paint and bags of dirt, most of those purchases are made from small businesses retailers operating on Ebay and Amazon. It's only a matter of time before Lowes and Home Depot start closing stores. There are far too many of those also.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

Yet the store explicitly encourages this by offering free returns. They make it clear that if something doesn’t work out they’ll take it back. They are totally above board about this, and they can choose to limit or start charging for excess returns at any time.

Absolutely. The one advantage B&M shoe stores have over online vendors is that you can try shoes on and see if they fit properly. Size and width designations don't necessary ensure that a shoe is comfortable. I think Zappos is on to that. I've used Shoes.com but discovered that they charge a return fee, so I'm done with them.

 

[momoftwo]

The only mall I go to now is the outdoor one literally around the block from us in northern NJ.

A great mix of stores with plenty of parking in front of each.

Trader Joes is the big draw and is always packed.
Theres a Loft, Banana Republic, Clark shoes, Club Pilates, Gap, Qdobo, Jos A Banks, etc
And the BEST hambuger takeout, Five Guys. We've tried hard to keep them alive this year.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

I tend to use eBay more than Amazon because I think small B&M vendors can more easily venture into online sales on that site vs. Amazon. Today I bought a belt through eBay from a John Deere retailer.

I've read reports pf Amazon undercutting some contract vendors if they get too successful. I would rather not subsidize ethics like that.

 

[Freedom56]

And the BEST hambuger takeout, Five Guys. We've tried hard to keep them alive this year.

Sorry the best burger takeout is by far In-N-Out Burger. Look what happened when they expanded to Colorado. People waited over 14 hours in line to get a burger and ever started fights when someone tried to cut into line. Shake Shack is also great but more expensive. The Five Guys we had near our condo in Florida went out of business pretty quickly.

 

[disneysteve]

most of those purchases are made from small businesses retailers operating on Ebay and Amazon.

Exactly. When people complain that online is putting local retailers out of business, they don't realize that just the opposite is often true. Online might be putting B&M stores out of business but it isn't putting the retailers themselves out of business. It's just changing where and how they sell their wares. And it expands their customer base from just the locals to the whole country or even international.


I have made ebay sales to all 50 states and pretty much every developed country in the world, sales I never would have made had I been operating out of a physical store.

 

[momoftwo]

I'll have to look for an In-N-Out so I can wait in line for 14 hours.

 

[ivinsfan]

I unfortunately return more than 1/2 my online clothing purchases. Don't even get me started on shoes! There's only 1 brand I can wear (Skechers) but recently they've updated their online service. Now I can ask if it has a "tall toe box" and "Tim the Shoe Guy" let's me know if it's worthwhile. "He" even suggests an alternative if the toe box is to slim (not wide feet just fat toes). I guess Amazon could be an option but they don't know their products.

I've about given up on Skechers, it's seems like no two pairs fit the same. I can wear anything from a 9 to a 10..

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

Sorry the best burger takeout is by far In-N-Out Burger. Look what happened when they expanded to Colorado. People waited over 14 hours in line to get a burger and ever started fights when someone tried to cut into line. Shake Shack is also great but more expensive. The Five Guys we had near our condo in Florida went out of business pretty quickly.

The "deluxe burger" joints have struggled to make ingress in southern Wisconsin because local custard franchises have locked the burger market up. I could name half a dozen or more, but they're all local and have no geographic footprint to speak of. The one exception is Culver's, which is hardly the best of the lot.

 

[Born2BRetd]

There are certain things I don't mind buying online but not clothes unless I am rebuying something I already have. Colors, feel of the fabric, fit, etc. I just can't visualize how the clothes will fit from a photo. And then there is the endless scrolling trying to see if something catches my attention. Meanwhile, in the store, I make a beeline for my size, look for the colors I like and can be in and out in 10 minutes or so.

 

[fancy free]

There are certain things I don't mind buying online but not clothes unless I am rebuying something I already have. Colors, feel of the fabric, fit, etc. I just can't visualize how the clothes will fit from a photo. And then there is the endless scrolling trying to see if something catches my attention. Meanwhile, in the store, I make a beeline for my size, look for the colors I like and can be in and out in 10 minutes or so.

Some online retailers have free shipping and free returns, e.g. Gap/Old Navy/Banana Republic (here you must spend $50 but you can return whatever you like and order in multiple sizes etc.), Zappos for shoes and clothing, and of course most items on Amazon if you have Amazon Prime. Amazon also has a deal where you can order, try it on, and never be charged as long as you return within 7 days.

I do agree with you re: the endless scrolling but I personally would rather scroll that actually shop in person!

 

[jollystomper]

Outdoor malls are also more easily accessed. If I want to go to only a certain store:
Indoor mall: Figure out the nearest entrance, drive around and park, walk thru the mall, etc.
Outdoor mall: Often has parallel and street parking, usually can find within eyesight of the store I want, I can do "in and out" a whole lot quicker.

In additional, outdoor malls are less likely to have folks who are just "hanging around" and not shopping.

Indoors malls fare better when they also have "entertainment" options that allow one to not just shop but have dinner, see a movie, music entertainment, etc.

 

[Walt34]

I think the pandemic has simply accelerated trends that were going to continue anyway. One of my hobbies is radio control model airplanes. Even when we lived in the D.C. area, although there was a well stocked hobby shop within a 30 minute drive, I bought most things online and not because they were cheaper. It was just more convenient because the hobby shop was such a pain to get to because of the traffic to the point that by the time I'd get there I was so irritated that even browsing in a hobby shop wasn't fun anymore. And here in WV the nearest decent shop is an hour drive each way and that only if I take care to avoid rush hour. I haven't been there in years, online is so much easier and often cheaper even with shipping.

Same thing with the malls. I haven't been to a mall in at least five years, probably closer to eight. The one closest to us closed about five years ago and the next nearest one, again, is a pain to get to. It just isn't worth the bother. As far as the big box stores putting "the little guy" out of business, it's because "the little guy" didn't adapt. Lowes, for example, was one of the little guys but they adapted and did well.

I've told this story before: When Home Depot opened a new store not far from our old house near D.C., I needed a new mailbox. I went to the local hardware store that I think had been there since at least the early 1900's and found a mailbox that I thought would do, for $15. I then went to the new Home Depot store and found the exact same mailbox for $7.50, half the price, so I bought it there.

Had I bought it from the smaller store, what would I get for my extra $7.50? Apparently lots of other people noticed that too, and a few weeks later the small hardware store was closed.

 

[CardsFan]

OTOH, here is a head scratcher: While the indoor malls have been hurting for a few years, here in New England where the weather is awful 50% of the time, new, large outdoor malls have spring up and are thriving. Granted, they are upscale but I would never guess that theyd do well when you cant shop in comfort.

I haven't lived there in over 40 years, but I have many memories of the South Shore Plaza in the 60's. Open air mall. Then they closed it in, because that was the thing to to do in the 70's.

So now the malls are going back to the past?

Interesting.

 

[disneysteve]

As far as the big box stores putting "the little guy" out of business, it's because "the little guy" didn't adapt. Lowes, for example, was one of the little guys but they adapted and did well.

People forget that the "big box" stores didn't start that way. Walmart started as a single five and dime store in Arkansas. Home Depot started with a couple of stores in Atlanta. Target began as a dry goods store in 1902. All big businesses were once small businesses. They just happened to be really successful at what they did.

 

[Ready]

I went to the local mall today. I rarely go but we wanted to take the dog for a walk and figured we’d check it out and see what’s happening at our local mall.

We walked through the local Macy’s. They had some nice comforter covers on display but we searched high and low looking for a price and couldn’t find one anywhere. And there were no sales people to ask, so we gave up.

Then we went to Bloomingdales. They had some nice bedding on display. But again we had to search hard to find any prices. When we did finally find a price list, the king bed sheets were selling for $2,000. Yeah right.

If there was another customer at the Bloomingdales besides us, we never ran into them. What was really noticeable was how little inventory they had. There were empty shelves everywhere. We saw a Cuisinart air fryer toaster oven on display at 40% off. But the regular price was $370. They sell at Costco for $160. And I never saw a sales person anywhere in that store either.

Next I went to a luggage store looking for a small case that could hold my Iphone and some wallet items. An item that looked like it was worth about $20 had a $249 price tag on it. Once again, we were the only people in the store.

So we left empty handed and I bought what I needed on Amazon. It was just downright depressing at the mall. The restaurants seemed busy but nobody else was buying anything.

We tried to go to the Apple store to look for a case for an Iphone but we were told that we could not enter the store without an appointment and there were no appointments left for the rest of the day. There were maybe 8 customers in the store at the time.

Our final stop was the Tesla store. We were hoping to sit in a Model Y. There was a family in the store - 2 parents, 3 kids. None had masks on and the three kids were climbing all over the inside of the Model Y like it was a jungle gym. So we passed and walked out.

That will probably be my last visit to a mall in 2021.

 

[jazz4cash]

This thread reminded me of a Gilmore Girls clip ( another household member was watching as I passed though the room) that reveals the perspective of shopping online by different generations:

 

[Bamaman]

Our beautiful 1,000,000 square foot mall was bulldozed, and it wasn't that old. In its spot, they're building an entire new city with 4 story apartments, a Top Golf, Trader Joes and a bunch of very large restaurants. It's a whole new (and expensive) lifestyle for millennials.

The loss of the mall was no big deal, as my wife and I are not shoppers. We spend very little on clothing in retirement--but more on shoes. And we never go into malls.

And since we live 10 miles out of town, our nearest Walmarts are 10 and 13 miles away. We avoid Walmarts and crowds like the plague. I don't know what we'd do if it wasn't for Dollar General stores that are 3 miles away in every direction.

If you get down to it, it's the modern logistics of UPS and Fed Ex that have allowed such a social change to no sticks and bricks to work. And they're very good at what they do.