Department Store Closures...

[Music Lover]

The "deluxe burger" joints have struggled to make ingress in southern Wisconsin because local custard franchises have locked the burger market up. I could name half a dozen or more, but they're all local and have no geographic footprint to speak of. The one exception is Culver's, which is hardly the best of the lot.

We have the usual burger chains, but we also have dozens of independent burger places that thrive.

 

[fancy free]

DW and I buy everything we can online, but we still don’t buy shoes online unless we are replacing the exact same shoe. We had a friend who would order as many as 10 pairs of shoes and then she’d return what she didn’t like/fit - she routinely returned 8-9 pairs - and thought nothing of it. We always saw that as dishonest, as all buyers are paying for all the excess shipping, it’s not free. But I am sure we’ll be buying more shoes online eventually...

Zappos encourages (and has always encouraged) customers to order multiple pairs in different sizes or styles and return what isn’t wanted/doesn’t fit. And their shipping and returns are free, so it’s not affecting what other customers pay.

 

[W2R]

Here's what happened to the biggest, fanciest mall in my area in the span of just a quarter century.

Back in the last century when I first moved to the New Orleans area, people at work told me about a huge, luxurious new mall the was "the place to go". I was busy LBYM'ing so not looking for a place to shop. Still, for a couple of years I went to that mall after work every day to walk for exercise because it was safe and air conditioned. I don't think I ever bought anything there, although it had moderate to high end stores selling beautiful items. I might have bought some Birkenstocks. The customers at that mall seemed well to do and genteel at that time. I stopped going there eventually when I stopped walking for exercise due to plantar fasciitis.

Then around the turn of the century I started noticing local news stories nearly every week about elderly women being mugged or car-jacked in the parking lot of that mall. I went there out of curiosity because I could hardly believe it. What I saw was that there were groups of shady looking "young gentlemen" standing around by the exits. I didn't feel one bit safe there and did not go back.

It didn't take too long for news stories to appear saying that mall business had dropped off a cliff, for no apparent reason supposedly. I could have told them why! The mall struggled along for a few years until it was clobbered by Hurricane Katrina, adding insult to injury. After that it never recovered and just failed totally. Rumor has it that it will be replaced by condos.

 

[fancy free]

OTOH, here is a head scratcher: While the indoor malls have been hurting for a few years, here in New England where the weather is awful 50% of the time, new, large outdoor malls have spring up and are thriving. Granted, they are upscale but I would never guess that theyd do well when you cant shop in comfort.

I think you can trace the love of outdoor malls (I admit they’re my preference as well — at least when I used to leave the house!) to Americans’ love of their cars and the sense that it’s faster/more convenient to drive to the door of the exact place you want to go.

An interesting 2019 essay by Paco Underhill (author of the great “Why We Buy”) on what malls need to evolve into to survive in America: Throwing Rocks over the Shopping Mall Fence

 

[Delawaredave5]

USA was way out of line with ROW in retail feet per capita BEFORE Covid / Amazon - like 8x Western Europe. We have a long ugly way to go....

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1058852/retail-space-per-capita-selected-countries-worldwide/

 

[Koolau]

2 years ago when visiting the mainland, I noticed the continuing decline of malls. That's not (at least obviously) true with our malls. They tend to cater to tourists more than to locals. They have for perhaps 10 or even 15 years been on a quest to the high-end. I can't comment on the past year as we've only been to the "local" mall once - it's not particularly high end. It was not packed, but had many shoppers. We went because it has a decent food court which makes a nice gathering place for visits with friends. I do think our local population is "different" in their shopping habits. I can tell one Friday from the last or next Friday. Payday Fridays, the stores/roads are much busier. Off Fridays are noticeably less busy. I mention this only to suggest we (probably) have fewer on-line shoppers. We probably have proportionately more B&M store traffic (especially pre-pandemic.) I have no data, but our local traffic is now almost back to pre-pandemic levels - at least to my untrained eye. As always, this is somewhat subjective, so YMMV.

 

[ERhoosier]

One group that still seems to hang out in and around big city malls- teen gangs. Yet another reason the traditional malls are in decline.


Agree 100% that some local businesses will continue to survive (even thrive) with good customer service. Just like some folks will always pay more for better service (& food) at nicer restaurants.
And more local business are adding on-line sales as well. Many folks are not thrilled with Amazon.

Retailing clearly is evolving and in ways sometimes difficult to predict. No guarantee the Amazon of today won't go the way of the old Sears Catalogue.

 

[teetee]

My prediction is that there will be more and more disappearance of malls and department stores everywhere because there will be more world wide pandemic and 8-month turnaround time for the vaccine is pretty much the shortest it can be for safety. It won't change as long as people continue to exploit the natural resources and force new viruses to reveal themselves.

Eventually there will be no store-front establishment. Everyone has to show their digital vaccination record the moment they enter public, closed buildings. The shipping and refrigeration industry will take over online commerce once they have enough money.

 

[Dtail]

For plants, we are picky and still go to plant farms and big box stores to pick out the exact plants we want.
The outdoor mall by us seems to be doing okay. The upscale outdoor mall by us appears to be doing better. Have not noticed any gangs hanging out probably due to who knows who will have a gun on the other side.

 

[Al in Ohio]

A department store in the Milwaukee area may have found the formula. Von Maur is the anchor of a retail development that includes luxury apartments. "The Corners" also includes restaurants, a comedy club and an upscale grocery store. They're doing well enough that they have announced plans to build a second store in Madison.

That’s been done for decades in some areas. It won’t last. It still can’t compete with online companies that can sell anywhere, not just to a few blocks of closeby apartment dwellers.

 

[Al in Ohio]

There are far too many malls in this country. More than anywhere else on this planet. The Amazon Prime truck can now be seen seven days a week on our street making deliveries. It's much more convenient buying online from Ebay, Amazon, or other sites. The local mall just scrapped plans to convert the shuttered Sears store into a Costco after they realized that Costco would wipe out other smaller stores in the mall including the fast food court. They still have a JC Penny and Macy's store to worry about. The other problem is that the landlords are asking too much for rent to the point where a small retailer is better off operating in their home and selling online through the Ebay and Amazon market places.

Then you must have really thought we had a lot before half of all mall department stores closed in the last decade. Another 25% of mall will close within the next 5 years.

 

[Al in Ohio]

This is a great point that we don't hear nearly enough. The internet has made it possible for millions of people to start their own business without having to pay the overhead required for a B&M location. My wife has a sewing business the operates out of our living room. I've had an online collectibles business since 1986. Lots of people make and sell jewelry, clothing, soap, candles, toys, and all sorts of other products. If the business is big enough, maybe they rent a small commercial space but the transactions themselves are still 100% online.


And there are some great hybrid options cropping up too. Around us, there is a store in a downtown business district that has weekly "pop up" shops. Basically, for $20/day you can rent a space to sell your wares. My wife has done it a couple of times. It lets small businesses get public exposure without the huge financial commitment of renting their own store. If malls want to survive, maybe they should do more of this. There was a mall in the Orlando area that went this route and created a bunch of mini stores for local artists, crafters, and small businesses. There were still a few traditional stores and food locations, but the bulk of it was the small businesses.

The internet didn’t just appear though. Its been around now for over 30 years and people have been selling items or services themselves off of it the entire time it’s been available.

 

[Al in Ohio]

Sorry the best burger takeout is by far In-N-Out Burger. Look what happened when they expanded to Colorado. People waited over 14 hours in line to get a burger and ever started fights when someone tried to cut into line. Shake Shack is also great but more expensive. The Five Guys we had near our condo in Florida went out of business pretty quickly.

I’ve had plenty of both and I have to say Five Guys Burgers are much better than In-N -Out Burgers. Plus Five Guys has much better service. They probably could hsve served that line that waited at In-N-Out in for 14 hours in under an hour! What knuckle head waits more than 10 minutes for even the best fast food? I know I wouldn’t. I expect excellent fast food in under 5 minutes.

 

[Chuckanut]

Been to 5 Guys once. Won’t go back again.

 

[RobbieB]

Me too. We got one a few years ago. Appears to be "fudruckers light" with crates for decor.

Been once and once was enough. There were 3 people eating there with me. Be gone soon.

 

[Matthew J]

I have a wide foot. EEEE.

Anyway, I know which lasts work

Where do you shop? I have the same problem.

 

[jollystomper]

I’ve had plenty of both and I have to say Five Guys Burgers are much better than In-N -Out Burgers. Plus Five Guys has much better service. They probably could hsve served that line that waited at In-N-Out in for 14 hours in under an hour! What knuckle head waits more than 10 minutes for even the best fast food? I know I wouldn’t. I expect excellent fast food in under 5 minutes.

Never been to an In-N-Out to compare, but I do enjoy Five Guys, though for health eating reasons I limit my visits to once per month . Among our area burger joints they hands down have the best service.

 

[Al in Ohio]

Me too. We got one a few years ago. Appears to be "fudruckers light" with crates for decor.

Been once and once was enough. There were 3 people eating there with me. Be gone soon.

Five Guys has been around for 30 years and has 1700 stores. They are entrenched everywhere except the west coast where they just arrived in the last 5 years or so.

 

[Ronstar]

Five Guys has been around for 30 years and has 1700 stores. They are entrenched everywhere except the west coast where they just arrived in the last 5 years or so.

I've been to In-N-out and Five guys - mostly when I was snowbirding in Scottsdale, Az.
No In-N-outs in northern Illinois that I know of. Good thing. I used to go quite a bit in Az.

Funny thing though. The Phoenix metro area doesn't have hardly any donut shops. Thousands off them in northern Illinois.

 

[jazz4cash]

Me too. We got one a few years ago. Appears to be "fudruckers light" with crates for decor.

Been once and once was enough. There were 3 people eating there with me. Be gone soon.

Same here but Fuddrucker’s was struggling here before COVID while 5Guys, Shake Shake and the others boomed. I loved Fudd’s toppings bar but expect that is history.