Detroit.........

[Koolau]

Several things led to where we are in Detroit. Listing them would eventually bring on Porky as many would like to deny the (root) causes. (Suffice to say "You can't fool Mother Nature.") But, honestly, the only surprise is that it didn't happen sooner. I spent some time in the city back in the mid 80's. Even though the FEDs were pouring billions into the down-town, it was clear that no one planned to stay (working out from the down town). I got pulled over by a cop who advised me that I shouldn't be driving in that area (heading out to Tiger Stadium from downtown!!)

I can only hope that Detroit's fate can be avoided by the USA. As the "resident pessimist" my (cheery) prediction is that America will go down the same road. Just hope I'm either wrong or else long gone by then. Unfortunately, I think my kids will see it. But, then again, YMMV.

 

[Shawn]

I am reminded of the line, "Take him to Detroit," from the 1977 film "Kentucky Fried Movie." Even though it is exaggerated humor, the line suggests that Detroit had a certain reputation as far back as 35+ years ago. Was it a premonition of things to come?

Take him to Detroit

 

[TuborgP]

The only way Detroit can pay off it's debts is if they were to annex/join with the suburbs that surround it. That would be a difficult thing to do as I doubt the suburbs would go along with it.

I think they are screwed and will have to declare bankruptcy. Although it is possible the state/federal gov steps in to take on the debts. I don't think that is very likely.

That is very true and may be for future Detroits

 

[NW-Bound]

From this website, many have been abandoned (along with other buildings): Detroiturbex.com - Locations

I looked at many of the photos in this essay, and felt so depressed. Abandoned buildings were looted or left so decayed there was nothing left to fix. In one subdivision, some new homes were looted while being under construction. Crime rate is that bad!

It would be far less expensive to wreck them all, and start all over. These relics were beyond hope. But where's the money to even bulldoze the eyesores? From the news, I saw that they did not even have the money to level some of the smaller abandoned single homes, so that they cannot serve as dens for the drug addicts/homeless, despite the pleas of the remaining home owners on the block.

Businesses and home owners would never come back, given the crime rate and the state of mind of many residents there. Detroit is doomed.

 

[clifp]

I don't know if Detroit is toast. It has had some success getting movies and TV shows there. If you think about it is the perfect setting for gritty police dramas, zombie apocalypse, plus things like Godzilla vs Giant Alien Death Robots. You can actually charge movie companies money for the privilege of blowing up buildings.

Thereby eliminating the need to bulldoze city blocks.

More seriously many companies come out of bankruptcy in an improved competitive position hopefully it works for Detroit.

 

[heirloom]

The only way Detroit can pay off it's debts is if they were to annex/join with the suburbs that surround it. That would be a difficult thing to do as I doubt the suburbs would go along with it.

Not as difficult as you think...they did it in Pittsburgh....kinda. They destroyed all section 8 homes and homes that weren't maintained and started to look like the ones in Detroit. Gave the owners of the homes a sum of money the city thought it was worth. THEN, they moved the people living in the houses and the sec, 8 places to different parts of the county. The county built more sec 8 in the suburbs to move the people to. Peeved the suburbs off but the county didn't care.

THEN the county let us vote whether we wanted taxed to help build a new fb stadium and it was a majority vote NO. Don't know why we voted because they ended up taxing us anyhow. So the Rooneys are making all their money with the help of us.

As far as the art goes, the gov. already said they will have to keep it because it is one thing that draws people to Detroit.

To help bring "working" people back to Pittsburgh, they made a law that you now have to live in the city if you want a gov. job. The ones who already have a city job but don't live there are grandfathered from the law.

I hope Detroit's physical infrastructure doesn't undergo the problems New York City's did in the late 1970s and into the 1980s following its near-default in 1974-75. People who travel in NYC are still feeling the effects created by years and years of deferred maintenance

But you were stopped from going bankrupt, look at it that way.

 

[teejayevans]

I don't know if Detroit is toast. It has had some success getting movies and TV shows there. If you think about it is the perfect setting for gritty police dramas, zombie apocalypse, plus things like Godzilla vs Giant Alien Death Robots. You can actually charge movie companies money for the privilege of blowing up buildings.

Speaking of movies, remember the movie Robocop, it was about city of Detroit in the future when it decayed into a lawless getto...life imitates art?
TJ

 

[bUU]

The only way Detroit can pay off it's debts is if they were to annex/join with the suburbs that surround it. That would be a difficult thing to do as I doubt the suburbs would go along with it.

Not as difficult as you think...

I agree. More over, I don't think the suburbs have much choice in the matter. If Detroit effectively disincorporates, then that third of Wayne County simply becomes an unincorporated portion of the county - where else would it go? Detroit ceasing to exist isn't going to float the city out to sea or sink it into Lake St. Clair. Incorporation simply sets a city aside from county control; disincorporation would just reverse the process.

Here in MA it would be even more direct, since we don't have integral county governments.

 

[plex]

Disincorporating the city and moving people around the county would work somewhat, but not as much as you think. Detroit suffers from one of the most extreme cases of suburban sprawl, the suburbs within Wayne county are in fact, mostly, the poorest of the "Detroit" suburbs, though they are certainly not as badly off as Detroit itself. For example, look at a city data map of county incomes:

Wayne County, Michigan detailed profile - houses, real estate, cost of living, wages, work, agriculture, ancestries, and more

You can see that there is mostly only yellow on the far NW and NE corners. Relocating people to those corners would simply solidify the long time invisible boundary that already has existed at 8-mile. The change that occurs when you cross over 8-mile is pretty dramatic. Also, the number of poor with section 8 level of incomes greatly outweigh the number of yellow areas within the county, possibly on the order of 10:1.

The reason the Detroit Museum gets a supporting tax from the surrounding three counties is because those places are where the professional jobs have gone.

 

[bUU]

I think we need to distinguish between the mechanics and whether the end-result will be good or not. Projecting, though: If Detroit ceases to exist, and therefore that burden falls onto Wayne County, could it legitimately cause the county to go bankrupt? They say this whole situation is going to be messy, but I wonder if the mess will just keep getting spread out in this manner, until it falls into the hands of an entity (probably the state of Michigan) that will have enough size that the burden can be spread far and wide enough without causing the entity to fail entirely.

 

[harley]

or sink it into Lake St. Clair.

Excellent suggestion. Move the people out (subsidized, of course), build a big wall around it, then flood it and use it as a cooling system for a number of new nuclear power plants. It's similar to what was done by building Lake Anna in VA (without the major city aspect). You end up with a needed power producing facility, a nice recreational area for boating and fishing (avoid the "warm" end of the lake), and solve the problem of what to do with a city nobody wants to live in anymore.

 

[Spanky]

Excellent suggestion. Move the people out (subsidized, of course), build a big wall around it, then flood it and use it as a cooling system for a number of new nuclear power plants. It's similar to what was done by building Lake Anna in VA (without the major city aspect). You end up with a needed power producing facility, a nice recreational area for boating and fishing (avoid the "warm" end of the lake), and solve the problem of what to do with a city nobody wants to live in anymore.

How much will this cost?

 

[travelover]

Excellent suggestion. Move the people out (subsidized, of course), build a big wall around it, then flood it and use it as a cooling system for a number of new nuclear power plants. It's similar to what was done by building Lake Anna in VA (without the major city aspect). You end up with a needed power producing facility, a nice recreational area for boating and fishing (avoid the "warm" end of the lake), and solve the problem of what to do with a city nobody wants to live in anymore.

You might want to consult a map.

 

[harley]

You might want to consult a map.

I thought about that, but I'm more of an idea guy. I leave the piddling little details to the experts.

 

[travelover]

I thought about that, but I'm more of an idea guy. I leave the piddling little details to the experts.

Good man, we need a guy like you in congress.

 

[ChrisC]

Detroit is not NYC, not Pittsburgh, and clearly not rural Spotsylvania/Louisa County Virginia (where Lake Anna is located and within a stone's throw where I lived for many years). Dissolution of the city or annexation of counties don't seem politically viable solutions for Detroit let alone financially prudent for all interested parties. It seems that burdensome debt has to be severely restructured, reduced or eliminated through bankruptcy; city services have to become more efficient; and major incentives have to be created for businesses to move into the City and gentrification to take place -- good luck with all of that Detroit. I'd leave the cultural draws of the City in tact -- people have to have some symbols of hope. Not sure Detroit is toast -- I'm sure many capitalists will find a way to benefit from Detroit's current condition and move it forward.

 

[samclem]

To help bring "working" people back to Pittsburgh, they made a law that you now have to live in the city if you want a gov. job. The ones who already have a city job but don't live there are grandfathered from the law.

These residency laws were finally found to be against the state constitution in Ohio, but they are apparently okay in Michigan. I don't know how much Detroit will be served by forcing employees to live in the city--how much more will the city have to pay in order to get the same quality of employees? Think of an employee with a couple of kids who are getting a good education in a public school somewhere in the 'burbs--he'll need to pay private school tuition if he moves to Detroit. Then there are safety issues, etc. In Dayton, the city workers (police and firemen primarily) colonized one neighborhood in the city and things were pretty good there--lower crime, etc. But it didn't do much for the rest of the town.

Every municipal employee who lives in Detroit is another voter with an interest in increasing city spending on city workers.

Detroit needs productive private businesses that bring productive workers and all that comes with them (spending downtown, demand for housing, services, etc). Eventually that will result in increased tax payments.

 

[teejayevans]

The emergency mgr is Kevyn Orr, a non-political position, handled the Chrysler bankruptcy, saw him on FN sunday, my first impressions is he is quite intelligent and pragmatist, I think if the politicos stay out of it, they'll be able get through it.
TJ

 

[aja8888]

I was a Plant Superintendent for a manufacturing plant near downtown Detroit (Fort/Summit Street intersection location) from 1973 to 1977.

Our plant was in trouble those years (and earlier) as our labor force was not as "qualified" as was being attracted by the Big 3 at the time. We eventually closed the plant and now it is a bare lot. Back then, the city was providing tax incentives for businesses to invest capital to add jobs, etc. We got a several million dollar property tax freeze for installing some new furnace equipment, but it was not enough for our plant to survive.

Our biggest problem was attracting labor. We had to compete against the auto industry contracts and we could not get the skilled laborers asour wage scales and benefits were not as lucrative as theirs. We were a UAW unionized facility, however .

Eventually, we lost customers due to quality issues and had to shut down the third shift because the newer workers who ended up on that shift had major drug problems and caused a lot of issues with production.

That plant was in operation successfully in Detroit for 50 years. Sad to see it close. But, that is the case of several plants there. Even now, big auto is mostly moved out of the Detroit area.

The city has been decaying since I lived there and many of my work associates lived outside the city at that time. I lived in Livonia when I was there and left in 1977 for another assignment in the Company in Connecticut. Actually, the same type of issues are and have been happening in other cities in the U.S. where manufacturing has been the lifeblood of the area. It's Detroit's time in the limelight now.

 

[heirloom]

If Detroit effectively disincorporates

It won't disincorporate. I forgot that one of the reasons Allegheny County moved sec. 8 people to suburbs is because the state got involved. They promised to lend money but only gave 1/3 of it up front. A yr later state people looked at the books to see if any real accomplishment was being made. Happy Pgh. was progressing, but they said it wasn't enough. Pgh had to decrease debt more b4 Penna. would give more money. This is what you don't want to hear....but health benefits had to be changed along with pensions for employees and salaries for new hires.....including big shots.

They used to be able to retire after 25 yrs with a full pension and benefits. Last yr was the final yr for that. They now have to wait until they are 60 to retire with a full pension and have to contribute to benefits . I think that is fair, I wasn't able to get a full pension at 62.

Detroit has everything a city needs for businesses...airport, water xportation, hospitals. They just need to clean the city up and get rid of trash, ?This will draw business there. It worked for NYC, Pgh and Miami, now its Detroits turn.

how much more will the city have to pay in order to get the same quality of employees?

Someone just coming out of training will gladly take a job. Give them a couple yrs and their qualifications will be pretty good..

Every municipal employee who lives in Detroit is another voter with an interest in increasing city spending on city workers

Until they realize they may lose their job some day because of greed. Greed doesn't work anymore, it has destroyed a few cities already and more are on their way unless employees wake up. I'll bet Chicago is next, and I know Harrisburg is on the list too.

 

[aja8888]

Detroit has everything a city needs for businesses...airport, water xportation, hospitals. They just need to clean the city up and get rid of trash, ?This will draw business there. It worked for NYC, Pgh and Miami, now its Detroits turn.

Detroit was a manufacturing city. They have lost the workforce and it's been replaced with unskilled workers, low property values, high taxes and crime. Big business is not about to invest billions to move back as they have too many other better alternatives.

 

[samclem]

Greed doesn't work anymore, it has destroyed a few cities already and more are on their way unless employees wake up.

I think an "awakening" is unlikely. The same factors that have driven Detroit to this point will keep it down unless something fundamentally changes.

 

[haha]

The city has been decaying since I lived there and many of my work associates lived outside the city at that time. I lived in Livonia when I was there and left in 1977 for another assignment in the Company in Connecticut. Actually, the same type of issues are and have been happening in other cities in the U.S. where manufacturing has been the lifeblood of the area. It's Detroit's time in the limelight now.

Very helpful on the ground report. Could you mention some other cities where similar if not necessarily as bad decay is going on? I know Dayton OH is in pretty bad shape, and of course has been a manufacturing powerhouse for most of the last century.

Ha

 

[haha]

I'll bet Chicago is next, and I know Harrisburg is on the list too.

I am not that familiar with much of the Midwest, but doesn't Chicago have much more to build on if they manage to solve their social and political mess?

Ha

 

[plex]

Rust Belt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 1st and 2nd map provided give a very good picture of where the problem areas all are. If you zero in on Wayne County, you can see it is in the center of a large red area, and when you look at change in income, it is dark red. You can also see that the three surrounding counties are green/dark green, illustrating the extreme surburban sprawl of the area.

Anywhere that is red on the first map and then dark red on the second map is going to be a decaying area. The other city in Michigan that is really badly decaying is Flint, it is basically almost an exact duplicate of Detroit, but on a much smaller scale, Flint isn't even a real city anymore due to the drop in population.

Under outcomes you can see the cities that were hit the worst, Detroit, Gary, Youngstown, Flint, and Cleveland are at the top. As you can see, while Pittsburgh and Chicago are up there, but aren't anywhere near to being in the same level of trouble as Detroit, Cleveland would be the closest comparably large city with major job losses, but Cleveland has transitioned much better it seems, as Cleveland has maintained income levels, despite being only 40% of Cleveland's peak size, just like Detroit has shrunk to only 40% of its peak size (it is light green on the map).