Die With Zero - Book

[audreyh1]

I think this is the author’s primary point: Rather than reflexively accumulating more dough than you can spend in the out years, get very intentional about funding the things you most want to do and then commit to doing them while you can.

That is exactly our philosophy and why we don’t minimize our withdrawal rate or reinvest unspent funds.

 

[Music Lover]

My GF has a daughter that she'll leave both some money and a cabin. Plus she has a brother and sister with no kids who will probably leave her daughter something too. My brother and sister are retired comfortably with paid off acreage and will take care of their kids.

I plan to start spending down while I'm still young enough to enjoy it. I didn't work 34 years so that I could reward cousins and distant relatives.

 

[Midpack]

I'm nearly finished and again it's not bad, but overwritten (could have been a long form article), and it's really geared for a younger crowd with promising careers ahead. Some of the last chapters are more applicable to all generations though, think about your diminishing physical and mental capabilities and make sure you've considered fulfilling some dreams before it's too late. Robbie seems to be an exception, but many here (self included) are holding on to $ that we may not be able to spend later if we want to. There's a whole chapter on "balance" about at least trying to find a happy medium between current consumption for rewarding experiences vs having enough for your future needs. The author describes a grim end for many of us, and asks do you want to have millions left over at the end only to spend it all prolonging a very poor quality of life? Or giving it to charities that could have used the money long ago, or family members who really don't need help anymore. He quoted a statistic saying the average age at which inheritances are passed on is over 60 - that does seem kind of pointless. Has us thinking about spending more now, though we won't go crazy...

 

[Markola]

I plan to start spending down while I'm still young enough to enjoy it. I didn't work 34 years so that I could reward cousins and distant relatives.

Same. With no kids of our own, I always thought that it was important to instead leave a chunk to charity, and our wills still provide for our favorites with whatever is leftover. However, after working in the philanthropy field for 28 years and being FIREd for a year, I’m very much in the mindset of shedding and avoiding unnecessary non-family mental obligations, and that I already made my major service contributions to humanity and then some. It feels a higher priority to enjoy what we have worked for ourselves. People and taxes will get paid along the way and that feels like enough right now.

 

[FANOFJESUS]

My GF has a daughter that she'll leave both some money and a cabin. Plus she has a brother and sister with no kids who will probably leave her daughter something too. My brother and sister are retired comfortably with paid off acreage and will take care of their kids.

I plan to start spending down while I'm still young enough to enjoy it. I didn't work 34 years so that I could reward cousins and distant relatives.

I know three people that worked twenty years longer than they needed to for cousins and distant relatives. I meet the relatives. It was a complete waste of 20 years of work. Then they asked me to do the same. When I retired early these are the folks that barked the loudest. LOL

 

[CaptTom]

I know three people that worked twenty years longer than they needed to for cousins and distant relatives. I meet the relatives. It was a complete waste of 20 years of work.

I think this demonstrates a thought I've had through all these discussions on leaving a "legacy."

I intend no disrespect toward those who see that as important. Good for you. Hopefully your offspring will use it wisely.

The other side of the coin, however, is as quoted above. Not everyone uses their inheritance wisely. Worse, if the recipients expect it, or have always been provided for, they may never develop the self-respect, and respect for others, which comes from earning your own way in the world. To me, that would be a horrible "legacy" to leave to my children, relatives and society in general. We have plenty of people like that in the world already.

 

[Music Lover]

I know three people that worked twenty years longer than they needed to for cousins and distant relatives. I meet the relatives. It was a complete waste of 20 years of work. Then they asked me to do the same. When I retired early these are the folks that barked the loudest. LOL

I didn't work a minute longer than I had to for myself...so why would I for cousins and distant relatives? Of course if I had kids of my own I'd probably have a different perspective.

On a related note, my siblings and I have been telling our parents to spend their money for years. We're all comfortably retired and don't want them to feel the need to leave us anything.

 

[Koolau]

I didn't work a minute longer than I had to for myself...so why would I for cousins and distant relatives? Of course if I had kids of my own I'd probably have a different perspective.

On a related note, my siblings and I have been telling our parents to spend their money for years. We're all comfortably retired and don't want them to feel the need to leave us anything.

We have kids and we have already told them they will get most of their inheritance BEFORE we die. After that, besides "something to remember us by" the remainder goes to our favorite charities. Our kids were raised to be independent. We've helped when they needed it and after we're gone, they'll be on their own. YMMV

 

[pdxgal]

Yes, almost done. I like the idea of doing what you want at the appropriate time in your life. The example about back packing around Europe for the summer. Great idea at 21. Not so great at 55.

YMMV. I backpacked around Europe at 18. One of the best experiences of my life for sure. Learned great life lessons and self confidence.

At age 55 I backpacked along the Chemin St Jacques (French part of the Camino Santiago) for a month, staying in hostels and gites. Also a great time. Plan to do more now that I just ERd at 59.

That being said, this sounds like an interesting book. Will add to my reading list.

 

[pdxgal]

A dear cousin died last year. She was always very frugal but overly so IMO, denying herself things that would've made her life easier (like having her front yard converted into a driveway so she'd have a place to park her car in her urban neighborhood that lacked parking spots). In part this was due to some generalized anxiety on her part and (I suspect) some other psychological issues. She seemingly didn't throw anything away.

Her estate is still being settled and the executor has told me I stand to inherit a sizable sum. While it's wonderful to have been so appreciated by my cousin, I feel sad that she probably needlessly deprived herself. I'm keeping these feelings and my cousin's memory top of mind as I start ER, as sort of a touchstone. And I want to use this inheritance to establish a scholarship or something that could benefit people while I'm still alive to see the results.

 

[Koolau]

A dear cousin died last year. She was always very frugal but overly so IMO, denying herself things that would've made her life easier (like having her front yard converted into a driveway so she'd have a place to park her car in her urban neighborhood that lacked parking spots). In part this was due to some generalized anxiety on her part and (I suspect) some other psychological issues. She seemingly didn't throw anything away.

Her estate is still being settled and the executor has told me I stand to inherit a sizable sum. While it's wonderful to have been so appreciated by my cousin, I feel sad that she probably needlessly deprived herself. I'm keeping these feelings and my cousin's memory top of mind as I start ER, as sort of a touchstone. And I want to use this inheritance to establish a scholarship or something that could benefit people while I'm still alive to see the results.

Old as I am and with as many cousins, aunts, uncles, parents, in-laws, etc., I've never actually inherited anything. DW received $10K from her last uncle 3 days before he passed - not technically an inheritance. We always (VERY affectionately) called him "our rich uncle" as he was always doing stuff like that. Once, he sent every "cousin" $4K. Another time, he sent everyone 100 shares of his new company (worth about $100 at the time IIRC). I hope to be THAT kind of uncle in the future - but the remainder goes to charity.

Interesting how these things go. Both sets of parents (hers and mine) essentially came out even. How amazing is that (I guess my mom had a couple $grand in the check book with my name on it (so, maybe that was my inheritance from her.) Same happened to DWs brother - don't recall he ever shared with her, but it would have been minuscule. MIL nearly fulfilled the age old dream of bouncing the last check - but not quite. YMMV

 

[Markola]

Not everyone uses their inheritance wisely.

I have nothing against inheritances either, but there is a brutal old saying about what often happens. “Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations.”

This article attempts to show a way to overcome the phenomenon so that inheritances don’t go the way of most lottery winnings..

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dennis...eeves-curse-how-family-wealth-can-survive-it/

 

[Running_Man]

The median net worth in America including house at age 75 is $255,000, which is only a few years expenses at that point with an 11 year life expectancy so the average American is already nearly there, now if people start really spending their money and not saving, should work out swimmingly!
https://www.cnbc.com/select/average-net-worth-by-age/

Interesting that while the median estate goal given to planners is 900K, the median estate is around 300K, which includes housing.

 

[pdxgal]

Growing up we had friends with two sons. The older one was doted on as a kid and didn't amount to much as an adult (younger one studied, became a doctor, had a solid family life as best one could tell). Nice enough guy, but bounced around a lot, spent $ on cars and stuff. I recall my folks saying with some contempt that he was just waiting for his inheritance, which he apparently did get at around age 55.

My parents' disdain at that guy's "waiting for his inheritance" went to my core, so much so that although I probably could have ERd shortly after my mom died thanks to my own inheritance, I wanted to reach ER on my own merits (i.e. not taking into account the family money). My parents probably would've thought that silly - my dad especially would've wanted me to quit 'w*rk' if I was able. I'll try to reconcile with that by blowing the dough on some things and experiences that my dad encouraged me to eventually do.

 

[Katiek]

I've had to clean out houses for three relatives and it's not easy. If my nieces and nephews are going to have to do that for me, I'd like to make sure I leave them something for their troubles.

 

[Sunset]

I think it can be pretty selfish to die with $0.
Especially if a person has not prepaid their funeral/cremation.

It will fall to some relative often named as executor to pay for various expenses like funeral/cremation, cleaning out the rental house, filing the deceased tax return.

 

[audreyh1]

Nobody is going to die with exactly $0. They’ll have at least a little, or be in debt, LOL!

 

[Markola]

^^^^^There you go, Audrey. Pre-pay for the deluxe funeral, including a parade with clowns, elephants and high school band, on a credit card.

 

[GravitySucks]

Another lie "they" told us. Like money can't buy happiness. And more money, more problems.
The rich can and do hold on to it - quite often.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-REB-35714

*** paywalled link - article talks about the rich families of Florence 600 years ago still being rich. Mea Culpa***

I have nothing against inheritances either, but there is a brutal old saying about what often happens. “Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations.”

This article attempts to show a way to overcome the phenomenon so that inheritances don’t go the way of most lottery winnings..

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dennis...eeves-curse-how-family-wealth-can-survive-it/

 

[Markola]

I can’t access the article but would be interested in how family wealth is preserved over 600 years! I’m going to guess that arranged marriages to others of similar stature, even cousins, and the headright system in which the oldest son inherits everything and the other siblings get nothing, are the central mechanisms.

I don’t think that would work so well in our country where divorce is allowed and laws protect all heirs equally. Both reforms tend to dissipate family wealth, as well as overextended lifestyles, debt, taxes and unfortunate business ventures. So, I can’t agree it’s a “lie”, since I’ve seen small and large fortunes go poof in my lifetime.

 

[GTP2022]

The challenge I see with the idea of “dying with zero” is how life will be at “zero minus a few years”. In the years before running out, it will be painfully obvious that the end of the portfolio is imminent and unavoidable, and I fear this will generate unmanageable stress. It will also motivate me to dramatically reduce spending. So, instead of having a strategy that allows me to enjoy “all the money”, it will instead ensure the final years will be fearful and unhappy, and probably impoverished.

I’d rather have a plan that lets me spend today and at the same time ensure my future needs are also provided for. If that means leaving money behind, fine.

Don't conflate the book title with the actual intent of the points he makes. I read it and found it to be an interesting philosophy. It made me think, which I believe was the intent of the book. Check it out for free at the library and maybe it will be interesting to you.

 

[GTP2022]

I like the idea of being able to leave money to my nephews and nieces. The concept of purposely trying to die, leaving as little as possible, doesn't really interest me that much.

I rather like the thought that my nephews and nieces will get a little extra in their bank accounts one day. Then, when they're putting it into savings, or buying something really nice for themselves and their family, they'll know it came from their Uncle Tom.

Yes, that's a nice thought.

His chapter on giving money to family is good. paraphrase: do it now while they can enjoy it and you can see the joy. OR, buy something they need, sponsor a trip, etc.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

His chapter on giving money to family is good. paraphrase: do it now while they can enjoy it and you can see the joy. OR, buy something they need, sponsor a trip, etc.

I can see his point, but for us we have to weigh that against the advice in The Millionaire Next Door about economic outpatient care. Our adult kids are very career motivated now and making good financial decisions. I would hate to screw that up. We paid for most college costs, first cars, first apartment furnishings, and health insurance before they had jobs with comprehensive plans. I'm not sure how much else would be best for them in the long run, except for maybe help with houses. One of my best friends from back home was from one of the few mult-millionaire families in town, never had to work for anything and it kind of destroyed any motivation to finish college or engage in a career, even though her parents meant well.

 

[JDARNELL]

I can see his point, but for us we have to weigh that against the advice in The Millionaire Next Door about economic outpatient care.

Our oldest son graduated from college in December. I had him read 3 books the year before graduation and the Millionaire Next Door was one of them. He is employed by the federal govt in a career development program and at his current grade he could make it on his own barely or be in some crazy living arrangements.

When we suggested that we would be willing to help him it really offended him as he did not want any EOC. He remembers the concept from the book and doesn't like it. After a few weeks of conversation with him CINC house an I agreed to give him a certain amount of EOC for a certain time period to be able to live in a nicer place and a safer part of town until he gets the next promotion but he has a lot of employer requirements to meet. Its all up to him. At that point he will be golden. Admittedly part of the reason is for us to have piece of mind he is ok.

It does lead us to the questions about inheritance for our kids though. They are gonna be so flush and may find it more of a deterrent than a blessing. Well see what the future holds.

 

[GravitySucks]

I can’t access the article but would be interested in how family wealth is preserved over 600 years! I’m going to guess that arranged marriages to others of similar stature, even cousins, and the headright system in which the oldest son inherits everything and the other siblings get nothing, are the central mechanisms.

I don’t think that would work so well in our country where divorce is allowed and laws protect all heirs equally. Both reforms tend to dissipate family wealth, as well as overextended lifestyles, debt, taxes and unfortunate business ventures. So, I can’t agree it’s a “lie”, since I’ve seen small and large fortunes go poof in my lifetime.

The "they" lie line was a poor attempt at humor.