Die With Zero - Book

[tb001]

The challenge I see with the idea of “dying with zero” is how life will be at “zero minus a few years”. In the years before running out, it will be painfully obvious that the end of the portfolio is imminent and unavoidable, and I fear this will generate unmanageable stress. It will also motivate me to dramatically reduce spending. So, instead of having a strategy that allows me to enjoy “all the money”, it will instead ensure the final years will be fearful and unhappy, and probably impoverished.

I’d rather have a plan that lets me spend today and at the same time ensure my future needs are also provided for. If that means leaving money behind, fine.

The flip side to that is that most of us are planning our retirement assuming we both live a looong time. After watching my and DH’s parents, it’s remarkable how much their spend has gone down in the late years. These were very active people but once 80 came along, spending just plummeted. If DH and I are anything like them, our ‘constant spend’ to death is going to be far more than necessary, even assuming 2-3 years of ltc.

 

[Major Tom]

I like the idea of being able to leave money to my nephews and nieces. The concept of purposely trying to die, leaving as little as possible, doesn't really interest me that much.

I rather like the thought that my nephews and nieces will get a little extra in their bank accounts one day. Then, when they're putting it into savings, or buying something really nice for themselves and their family, they'll know it came from their Uncle Tom.

Yes, that's a nice thought.

 

[RobbieB]

My step children will be instant millionaires if the current trend holds and their mother doesn't spend it all after I'm gone.

That's what is happening right now in real life. I was worried about spending too much, but there's nothing to worry about. Why frugal if you don't have to? Frugal if you have to or you want to but if you don't want to...

 

[Koolau]

The challenge I see with the idea of “dying with zero” is how life will be at “zero minus a few years”. In the years before running out, it will be painfully obvious that the end of the portfolio is imminent and unavoidable, and I fear this will generate unmanageable stress. It will also motivate me to dramatically reduce spending. So, instead of having a strategy that allows me to enjoy “all the money”, it will instead ensure the final years will be fearful and unhappy, and probably impoverished.

I’d rather have a plan that lets me spend today and at the same time ensure my future needs are also provided for. If that means leaving money behind, fine.

That's our current plan (assuming we don't both live 15 years in a care facility.) That fate and other black swans or the boogey man are all we fear, financially.

It occurs to me that doing SPIAs would allow you die "broke." I wonder if that's his ploy. Wouldn't appeal to me, but I could at least see the logic. Convert most of your stash to immediate (or even delayed) annuities and then die with virtually nothing in the stash. Yuk! But YMMV.

 

[Midpack]

Thanks for the lead. I put in a hold request at our local library.

I checked it out from our library yesterday, will give it a look today.

 

[Midpack]

I like the idea of being able to leave money to my nephews and nieces. The concept of purposely trying to die, leaving as little as possible, doesn't really interest me that much.

I rather like the thought that my nephews and nieces will get a little extra in their bank accounts one day. Then, when they're putting it into savings, or buying something really nice for themselves and their family, they'll know it came from their Uncle Tom.

Yes, that's a nice thought.

That’s our plan too. Unfortunately at the rate we’re going we’re going to leave too much to our nieces & nephews (all between 19 and 41 yo now). So we’re trying to figure out how to spend more on ourselves now while still leaving a nice chunk to heirs. Presumably not possible 30 years out, and nieces and nephews financial pictures then will be drastically different, some will probably be wealthy (and retired) while others scraping by. I think we’ll end up following something like the RMD model.

 

[finnski1]

The challenge I see with the idea of “dying with zero” is how life will be at “zero minus a few years”. In the years before running out, it will be painfully obvious that the end of the portfolio is imminent and unavoidable, and I fear this will generate unmanageable stress. It will also motivate me to dramatically reduce spending. So, instead of having a strategy that allows me to enjoy “all the money”, it will instead ensure the final years will be fearful and unhappy, and probably impoverished.

I’d rather have a plan that lets me spend today and at the same time ensure my future needs are also provided for. If that means leaving money behind, fine.

I agree. I used to joke that good financial planning was bouncing your last check to the undertaker. In reality your scenario is more what I would feel like and I wouldn't like it at all.

 

[pacergal]

Looks like he is discussing filling your life with experiences , rather than money.
So to me dying "broke" would be equivalent to not doing anything--no travel, no going out/sharing time with family or friends, no charity or giving back.
Not taking my accounts to $0.
But I guess I would need to read the book to be sure.
Not really an interest, as we most likely will have money left over, and we definitely can and do experience life to the extent we wish, traveling, etc.
Living life Blessed!

 

[aja8888]

One more divorce and I am sure to die broke!

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I think we've all had billions of dollars of advertising drilled into us that fun experiences have to cost a lot of money. They don't if you are a cheap date. It is possible to have fun and not have to worry about running out of money. Over the years we've belonged to all sorts of clubs and local university's adventure co-ops for activities like sailing, whitewater rafting, canoeing, camping, hiking, skiing, gold panning, and archery with very little expense along the way. We are into more sedate activities now like senior club activities, museums, symphonies, plays, wineries and state park visits but we do most with annual memberships / passes and discount tickets and still don't spend a whole lot, at least not relative to how much we do. And being retired one can look for last minute ticket and travel deals.

 

[FIREd]

I have no kids, and only one niece who is a spendthrift and who will already inherit a tidy sum from her grandparents via her mother. So I have no qualms about fully enjoying my money. I still plan to age 100, which is probably very optimistic, and so it is unlikely that I will die with zero (at the very least I'll still have to bequeath my fully paid primary residence). I will leave my niece a small sum and the rest will go to the national trust maintaining France's cultural heritage. At any rate, with no direct descendant, any heir of mine will have to pay a huge inheritance tax (55% for my niece), so the French government will most likely be my largest beneficiary and there is no incentive to die with huge amounts in the bank.

 

[RobbieB]

My next fun experience will be fishing on the Delta. But first I need to buy a boat and rent a slip.

No problem -

 

[Iggysmom]

Thanks for the book tip. I’m definitely reading that, and it’s nice to see a person of color writing in the personal finance space.

Our plan is actually built to spend the portfolio to zero at 92 (we have no heirs). However, that does not mean we plan to run out of money, given full SS, millions in home equity building up over the next decades, and daily expenses declining as normal as we age.

Me, too.

 

[Koolau]

I found an interview and bio on Bill Perkins. Not sure I would ever adopt the whole philosophy of "Die With Zero" but I think I could benefit from at least an introduction to the concept. I can't say I fear dying with "too much" but it does seem a bit silly to save, save, save and then die. At some point, there should be some level of spend down. Call it the luck of the markets or just being too careful, but the stash keeps increasing even as I spend more. Maybe reading his book would be a good influence on me to "live now" 'cause, at my age, there are fewer tomorrows - for certain. YMMV

 

[Dtail]

These kind of threads always have comments like I must start spending more, but in reality it usually doesn't happen except for RobbieB.

 

[Koolau]

These kind of threads always have comments like I must start spending more, but in reality it usually doesn't happen except for RobbieB.

RobbieB is my BTD hero. When I grow up, etc. etc. YMMV

 

[Golden sunsets]

Robbie; I truly appreciate your contributions to this forum. Truly I do. I just have to wonder if you are truly that 'devil may care'. Do your reinforcements that will come on line enable you to dial back the WR, if need be? I truly hope so, and if so I will continue to enjoy your happy warrior personna.

 

[Major Tom]

These kind of threads always have comments like I must start spending more, but in reality it usually doesn't happen except for RobbieB.

 

[Midpack]

I’m about halfway through it and it’s not a bad book, although it could be a long article instead of a book. Long time readers here will have heard everything in the book well discussed here over the years. It’s an update on Your Money or Your Life, but more about living a meaningful life than the nest egg management side. He mentions annuities and indeed they are the only way to actually die broke, but it’s not an annuity sales pitch, just a mention. It did make me think more about Giving While Living, so I started a thread on that…

 

[RobbieB]

Thanks guys! I do like the props -

Yeah, I can dial it down. I always have. Respond to changing conditions, adapt. Key to survival eh?

My wife dying at 60 was a major influence. We scrimped and saved, bought a house in the central valley that we could afford (with 10% rates back then) and paid it off. And then she went off. So, I got her 401 and what was left and thought "what if I die early too"

So I cranked up the wick a bit and then I got re-married after the grief and then the dough really started to flow. But yeah, I never bought 1st class before, stayed in Travel Lodge. I didn't get rich by spending a lot of dough.

FF to today and as I've said, I'm making it faster than I can spend it. Which is really nice to find after you've been blowing it over 4% for 7 years. But hey, that's what it's for eh!

Have fun and be happy -

 

[harley]

Not me. I'm hoping to follow the top line on my FireCalc chart. I can't take it with me, but I can certainly leave a nice pile behind (with luck). I don't want to take the chance of miscalculating and coming up short. I've been poor, and don't recommend it. Plus, DD is really responsible, and will hopefully be significantly older and wiser by the time she gets it.

 

[skyking1]

No kids of our own, but it would be OK to leave some to nieces and nephews. I don't need a book to front load our spending, we just need to be brave and do eet!!
My plan is to travel so much we just choke on it
Then we can settle down and collect our SS.

 

[Markola]

The flip side to that is that most of us are planning our retirement assuming we both live a looong time. After watching my and DH’s parents, it’s remarkable how much their spend has gone down in the late years. These were very active people but once 80 came along, spending just plummeted. If DH and I are anything like them, our ‘constant spend’ to death is going to be far more than necessary, even assuming 2-3 years of ltc.

I haven’t yet read the book but did toggle through the web link OP provided and I think this is the author’s primary point: Rather than reflexively accumulating more dough than you can spend in the out years, get very intentional about funding the things you most want to do and then commit to doing them while you can.

His planning tool lets you divide the rest of your expected life up into buckets of time and then you plug in your priorities for each bucket, e.g. Climb Everest and cage fight The Rock, etc. (better put that in the first three year bucket while your knees are good). Write a #1 NYT best selling novel, become governor and replace your teeth that The Rock knocked out (might take some time so maybe these go in the second 3 year bucket) etc.

 

[Bigdawg]

Thanks guys! I do like the props -

Yeah, I can dial it down. I always have. Respond to changing conditions, adapt. Key to survival eh?

My wife dying at 60 was a major influence. We scrimped and saved, bought a house in the central valley that we could afford (with 10% rates back then) and paid it off. And then she went off. So, I got her 401 and what was left and thought "what if I die early too"

So I cranked up the wick a bit and then I got re-married after the grief and then the dough really started to flow. But yeah, I never bought 1st class before, stayed in Travel Lodge. I didn't get rich by spending a lot of dough.

FF to today and as I've said, I'm making it faster than I can spend it. Which is really nice to find after you've been blowing it over 4% for 7 years. But hey, that's what it's for eh!

Have fun and be happy -

Robbie, on a serious note, so sorry for your loss. Glad you have recovered and found love again.

Now, stop the second guessing. You know that you are our BTD hero. Keep up the good work.

Now get back to work blowing that $$.

 

[DrRoy]

I may be doing some of this without the book. This year, (#5 of RE) we will spend 80% more that the "plan" from 4 years ago. Even so, NW is up nearly 40% from then. We feel like we are blowing any dough that seems reasonable, including upgrading to 1st/business class on some flights.