Die With Zero - Book

[daylatedollarshort]

Getting dementia in one country with most of your family members in another country isn't exactly smooth sailing. It is hard enough in the U.S. to take over the affairs of an aging family member, visit regularly, make sure they are well taken care of and find good nursing home care, let alone for someone not of sound mind that is thousands of miles away in a country with totally different social services, power of attorney laws, guardianship laws, etc. Plus, no visitors or maybe your kids will come once a year and have to spend their 2 week vacation each year visiting you in your nursing home in another country. Our family has gone through this and I don't see it as an optimal plan for aging.


My plan is to always have enough assets for assisted living or nursing home care for both of us for many years in U.S, so as not to unduly burden our adult kids.

 

[target2019]

I'm about half-way through the book. He's obviously talked to a lot of people about this idea, and has counter arguments to most of what people say when they hear about a plan to spend down severely. He mentions two things that "make sense" but not everyone is comfortable with: long term care insurance and life annuities. I think moving to another country is a better option if you need 7/24 nursing, like the China example, above. Buying an immediate annuity is one way to make sure you die with zero, and have money to spend until the end. Might not be financially "optimal", but then again, neither is leaving a huge pile on the table when you go.

Based on reading this book, I asked my (two) kids to come-up with a family gathering vacation plan, at no cost to them, that's so compelling, everyone will want to come. So a six person family gathering that's so cool, they, and the boy friends, will all buy-in. I hope they can get something specific that I can just book it. It's actually easier because I have two years worth of vacation budget to spend, not having done anything last year.

I'll get back into chapter 2 or 3 tomorrow. One-takeaway I have so far is that he is advocating spending in pre-retirement years rather than waiting until retirement and then spending down severely as you put it.

Your vacation plan sounds similar to what wife's family did for a number of years. Unlike your one-and-done, in our case it was always going back to same spot on a river. The place was plenty large, and unique, but in the heat of August it was torture for me in my forties. The number of people caused difficulty in who got what room and so on. The relative who made the arrangments, and had parents pay, became dictatorial over time. It was her show after all. So after 5 years or so we dropped out for this and other reasons.

But the great thing about those vacations is that I recalled the experience many times after, just like discussed in the book. I took 1000's of pictures of the cousins, etc. growing up. So I ended up with fondness for the entire package. And I thought of those days while reading the author's view on experience dividends.

 

[edsahara]

Years ago, I had on my bookshelf two books: "Die Broke" and "Don't Die Broke." If I manage to die broke, I'll have a smile on my face.

 

[sengsational]

... in our case it was always going back to same spot on a river. The place was plenty large, and unique, but in the heat of August it was torture for me in my forties. The number of people caused difficulty in who got what room and so on. The relative who made the arrangments, and had parents pay, became dictatorial over time. It was her show after all. So after 5 years or so we dropped out for this and other reasons.

We had been having an extended family gathering every other Christmas. We've probably done 10 of them over the last 20 years, with pretty much excellent attendance (30 people or more). Lately, we booked the same place (simple cabins in Jensen Beach), but we did the Keys a few times and a cruise too. It wasn't sponsored, but accommodations were such that nobody didn't come because of affordability alone. Covid put the kibosh on last year's event, and so this is an off-year for the extended family deal. But as the book presses on, so did my Dad...you really want to get those experiences when you can. Those years where my kids got to hang out with the cousins were quite exceptional. And also for just us siblings to spouses to hang out too.

 

[Scuba]

I'm about half-way through the book. He's obviously talked to a lot of people about this idea, and has counter arguments to most of what people say when they hear about a plan to spend down severely. He mentions two things that "make sense" but not everyone is comfortable with: long term care insurance and life annuities. I think moving to another country is a better option if you need 7/24 nursing, like the China example, above. Buying an immediate annuity is one way to make sure you die with zero, and have money to spend until the end. Might not be financially "optimal", but then again, neither is leaving a huge pile on the table when you go.

Based on reading this book, I asked my (two) kids to come-up with a family gathering vacation plan, at no cost to them, that's so compelling, everyone will want to come. So a six person family gathering that's so cool, they, and the boy friends, will all buy-in. I hope they can get something specific that I can just book it. It's actually easier because I have two years worth of vacation budget to spend, not having done anything last year.

Cool idea!

 

[Scuba]

Interesting topic and one I’ve been thinking about more frequently. DH has Ventricular Tachycardia that has been getting worse the past two years and has severely impacted what he can do. Thankfully, he can still golf, but the heavy meds have impacted his game. We had dreams of a very active retirement including buying a boat for trips up in the San Juan and Vancouver islands, hiking, biking and travel. That has changed significantly. He can manage brief trips, but is now uncomfortable being out of country or further than the Southwest due to flare ups (Defib activating). He has always been very healthy and active, so this was unexpected (we are both 63). So, the plan is to upgrade what travel we can do and allow for more luxuries around home.
We have several friends that are experiencing unexpected health issues severely impacting their lifestyle. So it is not that uncommon.
I just reserved the book at my local library.

Sorry this has happened. Sounds like you are making the best of it. You’re right, we are only 60 and 62 and while we are both healthy with no chronic conditions, we’ve started to struggle with minor injuries that still impact what we can do.

 

[Scuba]

Getting dementia in one country with most of your family members in another country isn't exactly smooth sailing. It is hard enough in the U.S. to take over the affairs of an aging family member, visit regularly, make sure they are well taken care of and find good nursing home care, let alone for someone not of sound mind that is thousands of miles away in a country with totally different social services, power of attorney laws, guardianship laws, etc. Plus, no visitors or maybe your kids will come once a year and have to spend their 2 week vacation each year visiting you in your nursing home in another country. Our family has gone through this and I don't see it as an optimal plan for aging.


My plan is to always have enough assets for assisted living or nursing home care for both of us for many years in U.S, so as not to unduly burden our adult kids.

We don’t have kids but I agree 100% with this.

 

[target2019]

To convince us that zero is the number to die with, Perkins uses two examples. Billionaire John didn't retire until 38 and can't use up the money before he dies! Next example is Elizabeth who retires at 65 with $320k in investments and $450k in home equity. She dies at 85 and leaves behind $130k. I'm not going along with these situations for several reasons.

But I did get more out of Chapter 2 - Invest in Experiences. Helped me fathom wedding dress shopping on the weekend.

 

[2177V]

To convince us that zero is the number to die with, Perkins uses two examples. Billionaire John didn't retire until 38 and can't use up the money before he dies! Next example is Elizabeth who retires at 65 with $320k in investments and $450k in home equity. She dies at 85 and leaves behind $130k. I'm not going along with these situations for several reasons.

I agree. You cannot predict when you are going to die. Life happens. Death happens. When I was young, I thought the same way because dying with a bunch of money means I cheated myself. However, I now have a young wife, children, grand children, etc. Family changes everything.

When my dad passed away, he "gave up" because he can no longer drive. He loves driving and when he lost that joy, he did not want to go on living. I was happy that his last car was a nice one.

My plan is to estimate my longevity which is 88 according to the life expectancy calculators on the internet. Five years before 88 which is 83, I will reflect on my life and my health and then write down what makes me happy and what brings me joy. A new car, travel, etc. I will then look at my finances and make decisions. I will leave some extra money in case I live beyond 88. I will not die with zero but I intend to die happy.

My question: Will dying with zero makes you happy? What if you live to 120 and you run out of money at 90? Do you commit suicide at 90 to make your plan work? I have not read this book, but does the book addresses this issue?

 

[sengsational]

I just finished the book. I'm glad I read it, and it has changed my mind about spending. It's not that I didn't understand these concepts, but the book put them in such a way that it was hard to argue against. Especially the ability and drive to do less as you age. It's not the kind of thing that's fun to think about, so it's natural to think you'll still want and be able to the same hike at 80 as you can at 60. But that's just very unlikely. Your needs and wants will diminish and so will your associated expenses. You can insure against longevity risk with a life annuity, and taking SS at 70.

I've already taken a step to get some extra experience points with my kids, but another thing is that this book did was get me moving again on preventive medical. I've blown some dough on that, but really not in line with the amount I should be blowing. My medical spending is basically zero because the treasury buys my insurance, but in 7 years, I've received zero benefit from that, thanks to good health. I really should be seeing a doctor that's focused on health and longevity (someone like Peter Attia), but I'm not sure how to find that kind of doctor. I've joined self-pay trials that don't really have interventions, just a lot of monitoring (much more than the sick-care system offers), but my next step is to get guidance from a real health care (not sick-care) provider.

 

[enjoyinglife102]

I read the book when it came out and my main takeaways were:
1. Don't get sucked into living your life on autopilot. Rather go out and take the initiative to experience things that will make you happy. It is especially important to match up those pursuits with age capability (unlikely you'll climb Everest when you're 80).
2. Most people focus way to much on longevity risk and not nearly enough on the risk of missing out on living. They say "it's a balancing act" but in actuality it is not balanced at all and people die with a lot of money and very little living.

An easy, recommended read.

 

[braumeister]

I really should be seeing a doctor that's focused on health and longevity (someone like Peter Attia), but I'm not sure how to find that kind of doctor. I've joined self-pay trials that don't really have interventions, just a lot of monitoring (much more than the sick-care system offers), but my next step is to get guidance from a real health care (not sick-care) provider.

If you figure out a good way to do that, please let us all know.

When I went looking about three years ago, I found some likely prospects in my area, then made phone calls asking to set up a ten minute in-person appointment to see if we were compatible. They were all willing to do that, and I picked one I'm happy with. Some were almost comical in how incompatible they were, and I was able to eliminate them as soon as I walked into the waiting room, but they all seemed happy enough to do the mutual interview.

 

[GTP2022]

At 71, the book inspired me to take my daughter this fall on a big trip to Bhutan. Expensive, but the memories we’ll share are worth more than leaving an inheritance. I know that I can tighten my belt when necessary if it comes to that, even to the extent of moving offshore.

Hell yea. Nice choice!

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I've already taken a step to get some extra experience points with my kids, but another thing is that this book did was get me moving again on preventive medical. I've blown some dough on that, but really not in line with the amount I should be blowing. My medical spending is basically zero because the treasury buys my insurance, but in 7 years, I've received zero benefit from that, thanks to good health. I really should be seeing a doctor that's focused on health and longevity (someone like Peter Attia), but I'm not sure how to find that kind of doctor. I've joined self-pay trials that don't really have interventions, just a lot of monitoring (much more than the sick-care system offers), but my next step is to get guidance from a real health care (not sick-care) provider.

Have you read the books or watched the video of doctors like Mark Hyman? They are a part of a group of functional medical doctors. I find Dr. Hyman's "farmacy" videos pretty informative. We don't have functional medicine doctors for now as they don't usually take insurance, but we've got appointments for regular doctors coming up and we're going to try to get as many of the functional medicine types tests of out them as they will agree to. Then we'll see a functional medicine doctor if we still have any issues we can't figure out.

So far this year we've done the Thryve gut tests, plus some nutritional tests we've ordered on our own. They've been very informative and actionable so far. The Thryve test results have a lot of details, including what gut bacteria you may have out of kilter compared to healthy controls. Out of whack gut bacteria seem to be a factor in many chronic illnesses, everything from cancer to asthma. DH has been taking the customized probiotics from Thryve and found them helpful, so I'll probably order mine, too. I am going to try to use them in homemade yogurt, like oldmicrobiologist has posted here.

I'm spacing the nutritional tests out so as not to have too much blood drawn at one time, but by the end of the year I hope to have all the known nutrients tests done plus other tests like platelet counts, which is an emerging biomarker for cancer. We're also working on our posture and muscle alignment with yoga, which I think is a really underappreciated health factor in conventional medicine.

 

[2177V]

My life changed when I witnessed people dying in front of me. It happened when I was in the military and a second time when I was a civilian engineer in Afghanistan and a mine blew a soldier’s shoulder off so we could not stop the bleeding. His last words: “help me”. Since then I have never taken life for granted and I live life to the fullest. If I die today, most of my life’s goals have been accomplished and I can die with no regrets because of my relationships with family, friends and neighbors. It is the human connections that are the most important priority. When I go and have a lunch with my former co-workers, I insist on paying. Money becomes secondary while enjoying life with family, friends, neighbors and even strangers at my volenteer service to the community. I only use money to make both myself and other people happy.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I read the book when it came out and my main takeaways were:
1. Don't get sucked into living your life on autopilot. Rather go out and take the initiative to experience things that will make you happy.

One counterpoint to that line of thinking is that most research based happiness studies show that the factors that make people happy are usually not expensive - getting out in nature / forest bathing, having a sense of purpose, volunteering, being near water, expressing gratitude, bonding with a pet, enjoying music and social connections. The longest running happiness study found the number one factor was social connections, "people who are more socially connected to family, to friends, to community are happier, they’re physically healthier and they live longer than people who are less well connected."

Recent research also points to the right gut bacteria as being important for happiness.

 

[audreyh1]

I just finished the book. I'm glad I read it, and it has changed my mind about spending. It's not that I didn't understand these concepts, but the book put them in such a way that it was hard to argue against. Especially the ability and drive to do less as you age. It's not the kind of thing that's fun to think about, so it's natural to think you'll still want and be able to the same hike at 80 as you can at 60. But that's just very unlikely. Your needs and wants will diminish and so will your associated expenses. You can insure against longevity risk with a life annuity, and taking SS at 70.

I've already taken a step to get some extra experience points with my kids, but another thing is that this book did was get me moving again on preventive medical. I've blown some dough on that, but really not in line with the amount I should be blowing. My medical spending is basically zero because the treasury buys my insurance, but in 7 years, I've received zero benefit from that, thanks to good health. I really should be seeing a doctor that's focused on health and longevity (someone like Peter Attia), but I'm not sure how to find that kind of doctor. I've joined self-pay trials that don't really have interventions, just a lot of monitoring (much more than the sick-care system offers), but my next step is to get guidance from a real health care (not sick-care) provider.

I think you want a Functional Medicine doctor.

Have you read the books by Dale Bredesen? I think his resources might get you on the right path for care. He addresses cognitive decline more specifically, but since his approach addresses body health and metabolic health, it’s good for most other stuff too. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=dale+bre...339928&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_8qctooldc0_e

 

[2177V]

I had a wake-up call when one of my best friend had a stroke and half her body is paralyzed and she can not go to the bathroom without some assistance. A nursing home that provides this assistance cost $6K to $8K a month. A live-in nurse if you have an extra bedroom, will cost $4 to $6K a month. I decided to buy income producing properties overseas where nursing care is 50% of these costs. I realized wealth in the stock market does not provide a safety net if health care costs drains your stock market portfolio. I discovered Mexico, Thailand, China are some good countries where health care costs are reasonable. Buying a condo overseas made sense. I earn rent income while I am still healthy and I have a place to stay if I need affordable nursing care. A number in a stock market portfolio is just a number whereas owning properties overseas gives me more options related to travel and health. I decided on China because Thailand, South Korea, Japan, Philippines are all close by to visit if I decided to move there.

 

[Major Tom]

I had a aunt leave me $75k when she passed. That money allowed us to use a portion to adopt two children. Because of her she changed two children's lives and ours as well. I'll never forget her and what she did for me.....

I doubt that I could think of a better way to spend part of an inheritance if I tried. I'd be absolutely thrilled if any money I left behind was used in that way. You've made my evening with that story!

 

[Scuba]

One counterpoint to that line of thinking is that most research based happiness studies show that the factors that make people happy are usually not expensive - getting out in nature / forest bathing, having a sense of purpose, volunteering, being near water, expressing gratitude, bonding with a pet, enjoying music and social connections. The longest running happiness study found the number one factor was social connections, "people who are more socially connected to family, to friends, to community are happier, they’re physically healthier and they live longer than people who are less well connected."

Recent research also points to the right gut bacteria as being important for happiness.

I agree that social/family connections and relationships are a key driver, if not the primary driver, of happiness for most people. That’s why a good way to spend money is to have experiences with people we’re close to. While the experiences don’t always have to be expensive, I love traveling and hosting others in special faraway places when we can. That does cost money but it’s worth it in creating special memories.

 

[tmitchell]

I'm really appreciating this book and discussion here. For me, Die with Zero has inspired me to take an account of all the amazing experiences I've already had, and now I'm putting together a list of things I would like to do while I'm able-bodied and motivated to do so.

I've been struggling with OMY for a couple years now, and had been planning to downshift or retire in October. But the housing market has thrown me for a loop and now I'm really confused as to how to proceed. I had a chat with my boss yesterday and they want to renew my contract for 2 more years. I'm on the fence, but based on this discussion I'm thinking that since I've got *enough* I might direct additional monies while I continue to work to bucket list stuff like going to Antarctica while saving for a bigger down payment.

Trouble is, I'll still be answering to Megacorp. I've got a decent vacation policy and WFH helps me slip away a bit, but it's a dilemma for sure. I feel stuck. Do I stop and enjoy my time, or stick around and solve my housing dilemma?

 

[Paulz]

I'm really appreciating this book and discussion here. For me, Die with Zero has inspired me to take an account of all the amazing experiences I've already had, and now I'm putting together a list of things I would like to do while I'm able-bodied and motivated to do so.

Trouble is, I'll still be answering to Megacorp. I've got a decent vacation policy and WFH helps me slip away a bit, but it's a dilemma for sure. I feel stuck. Do I stop and enjoy my time, or stick around and solve my housing dilemma?

I'm in a somewhat similar situation and decided to keep going as telework makes everything so easy....well....tolerable. For me, the 90 minute commute each way was my Achilles heel. We don't use cameras for our remote meetings, so while it is still work it's not oppressive. I'm committing for two years and will evaluate at the 18 month mark if I want to continue or not.

 

[FIREd_2015]

Just finished reading the book. Had a lot of good points. The book reinforces my thinking of buying an immediate annuity to hedge against longevity risk. My current plan is to take about 5-10% of my liquid assets to purchase an immediate annuity around the time I start collecting social security.

Main takeaway for me was don't put off doing what I want to do. In my younger days, I'd say "it can wait till next year" but that's no longer valid and I need to think more along the lines of if I don't do it now I may never get another opportunity.

 

[tmitchell]

I'm in a somewhat similar situation and decided to keep going as telework makes everything so easy....well....tolerable. For me, the 90 minute commute each way was my Achilles heel. We don't use cameras for our remote meetings, so while it is still work it's not oppressive. I'm committing for two years and will evaluate at the 18 month mark if I want to continue or not.

"Tolerable" is the operative word! I feel like I can handle keeping on, but do I really WANT to?? I think if it weren't for the house situation I'd bail.

Glad your commute is gone. So far mine is too though there are rumors about us being brought back in at some point.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Sorry this has happened. Sounds like you are making the best of it. You’re right, we are only 60 and 62 and while we are both healthy with no chronic conditions, we’ve started to struggle with minor injuries that still impact what we can do.

We also have started to develop some health issues that have slowed down some of our activities at similar ages. I'm hoping for a full recovery for both of us. But if not, we're especially glad we FIREd and have ten years of action packed retirement behind us.