Eastern Pennsylvania area and general moving questions

[MrsHaloFIRE]

We spend alot of tine with family near Limerick/Reading/Wyomissing outside Philly. The roads are winding and it takes forever to get anywhere. And the drivers!!! They are emptyheaded. Tgey will sit at a stop sign and sit and sit. My husband said he feels none of the drivers plan ahead they just act on impulse. Takes 45 mins to go 20 miles on winding weird roads.

[Dash man]

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Originally Posted by MrsHaloFIRE We spend alot of tine with family near Limerick/Reading/Wyomissing outside Philly. The roads are winding and it takes forever to get anywhere. And the drivers!!! They are emptyheaded. Tgey will sit at a stop sign and sit and sit. My husband said he feels none of the drivers plan ahead they just act on impulse. Takes 45 mins to go 20 miles on winding weird roads.

HEY! That's my home you're talking about there! Drivers are no worse than anywhere else. I don't know what you're talking about sitting at a stop sign and waiting. I never see that. If it takes you 45 minutes to go 20 miles, try a different way. Everywhere has traffic. Try using Waze.

[chassis]

I am from Michigan, and lived in southeast PA for 14 years. It's nice. And totally different than Michigan, topography-wise and culture-wise. Good on both accounts, and very different on both accounts. I am familiar with SE and SW Michigan, pretty intimately.

Land and outbuilding will not be found affordably (compared with MI) near Philadelphia, or near Harrisburg or Allentown for that matter. Michigan real estate prices are several notches less expensive than anything in eastern PA. The big game changers comparing SW Michigan to SE PA are New York City, Philadelphia and Washington, DC. The population density is completely different. Chicago has no relevance and no effect on SW Michigan real estate, except for Lake Michigan property.

Your best bet for low(er) prices in relative terms in SE PA is between cities, ie the Lebanon area, or in central and northern PA where population is less dense. Have a look at Berks County. Nice proximity to everything and a bit lower priced than Phila and the Lehigh Valley.

Lower priced counties: Berks, Lebanon, Lancaster. Although Lancaster is heating up, and desirable places in Berks are getting hot.

Higher priced counties: Delaware, Bucks, Montgomery, Chester, Lehigh, Dauphin.

Where exactly do you want to be, relative to family?

[MrsHaloFIRE]

Sorry to offend. But we spent a 6 weeks there at one point and that was my opinion. The drivers don't plan. They drive like they're the only ppl on the road and haven't decided where they are going yet. Like I said thats my opinion. Some ppl obviously ok with it. I recall moving my FIL from a hospital to a temp rehab to a rest home. All geographically close. Used google maps. Took forever to drive between. I do love that its very lush and green and the old stone homes and appreciate the availability of scrapple and link bologna.

When we lived near Harrisburg/ Carlisle I found those drivers to be better.

Where I live in TX there are very poor drivers also but the habits are different. They are extremely aggressive and allow no distance between cars. They plan, but they plan on being jerks. I've seen WILD things. Feel free to insult my traffic if you don't like it. I will agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Dash man HEY! That's my home you're talking about there! > Drivers are no worse than anywhere else. I don't know what you're talking about sitting at a stop sign and waiting. I never see that. If it takes you 45 minutes to go 20 miles, try a different way. Everywhere has traffic. Try using Waze.

[Dash man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrsHaloFIRE Sorry to offend. But we spent a 6 weeks there at one point and that was my opinion. The drivers don't plan. They drive like they're the only ppl on the road and haven't decided where they are going yet. Like I said thats my opinion. Some ppl obviously ok with it. I recall moving my FIL from a hospital to a temp rehab to a rest home. All geographically close. Used google maps. Took forever to drive between. I do love that its very lush and green and the old stone homes and appreciate the availability of scrapple and link bologna. When we lived near Harrisburg/ Carlisle I found those drivers to be better. Where I live in TX there are very poor drivers also but the habits are different. They are extremely aggressive and allow no distance between cars. They plan, but they plan on being jerks. I've seen WILD things. Feel free to insult my traffic if you don't like it. I will agree with you.

Six weeks and you decide we’re all empty headed. I’ll pass on your invitation to insult anyone. I’ve spent far more time in Texas, though I try not to insult others.

[chassis]

I consider mid-Atlantic drivers to be among the most disciplined and courteous in the country. And I have driven extensively through most of the lower 48 states.

If you're not familiar with the megalopolis from DC to Boston, you need to recalibrate your expectations of how long it takes to get from point A to point B in that part of the world.

[Third Son]

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Originally Posted by chassis I am from Michigan, and lived in southeast PA for 14 years. It's nice. And totally different than Michigan, topography-wise and culture-wise. Good on both accounts, and very different on both accounts. I am familiar with SE and SW Michigan, pretty intimately. Land and outbuilding will not be found affordably (compared with MI) near Philadelphia, or near Harrisburg or Allentown for that matter. Michigan real estate prices are several notches less expensive than anything in eastern PA. The big game changers comparing SW Michigan to SE PA are New York City, Philadelphia and Washington, DC. The population density is completely different. Chicago has no relevance and no effect on SW Michigan real estate, except for Lake Michigan property. Your best bet for low(er) prices in relative terms in SE PA is between cities, ie the Lebanon area, or in central and northern PA where population is less dense. Have a look at Berks County. Nice proximity to everything and a bit lower priced than Phila and the Lehigh Valley. Lower priced counties: Berks, Lebanon, Lancaster. Although Lancaster is heating up, and desirable places in Berks are getting hot. Higher priced counties: Delaware, Bucks, Montgomery, Chester, Lehigh, Dauphin. Where exactly do you want to be, relative to family?

Thanks for the reply. I do see some properties that would fit the bill for our needs in Berks, Lancaster, and Lebanon. There are a few in the other counties you quoted but are less affordable. Our criteria includes having a good health care system and being within a couple of hours to a major airport. These are our active years so we are hoping to not be home too much. Easton would be exactly halfway between our two children but we are not necessarily held to that area. My wife and I are not from Michigan but have lived here for 30 years we are looking for a change.

[Dash man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Third Son Thanks for the reply. I do see some properties that would fit the bill for our needs in Berks, Lancaster, and Lebanon. There are a few in the other counties you quoted but are less affordable. Our criteria includes having a good health care system and being within a couple of hours to a major airport. These are our active years so we are hoping to not be home too much. Easton would be exactly halfway between our two children but we are not necessarily held to that area. My wife and I are not from Michigan but have lived here for 30 years we are looking for a change.

One great thing about being retired is you can usually choose what time of day to travel. Traffic is typically bad during certain times such as rush hour, or Fridays for beach traffic during the summer. But it’s not hard to avoid those times. I make it from our western Montgomery County home to our Jersey Shore home in just over two hours (106 miles).
We used to have partial season tickets to the Phillies, but gave them up because traffic was bad both ways during typical game times. Now we just pick games where traffic won’t be a problem.

[chassis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Third Son Thanks for the reply. I do see some properties that would fit the bill for our needs in Berks, Lancaster, and Lebanon. There are a few in the other counties you quoted but are less affordable. Our criteria includes having a good health care system and being within a couple of hours to a major airport. These are our active years so we are hoping to not be home too much. Easton would be exactly halfway between our two children but we are not necessarily held to that area. My wife and I are not from Michigan but have lived here for 30 years we are looking for a change.

Tower Health (formerly Reading Health System) in Berks County is very good. Lehigh Valley Health Network in Allentown is also good. The major hospitals in these cities are all good. To me it doesn't make much difference unless you have a specific health care need that not all providers can support.

Easton will be quite expensive, as it is near the border of PA/NJ. I look at western NJ and eastern PA as the natural expansion path of NYC. NYC is simply too expensive for most people, and the population needs to expand.

Down the Delaware River towards Princeton gets expensive.

Another area to consider is the Wyoming Valley - Scranton and Wilkes Barre. These have the reputation of former coal and industrial cities. However with population growing, these areas in my opinion represent value and a good combination of what you are looking for - reasonable housing prices and good location to things. There is alot of new construction throughout eastern PA, so you might find something that fits your requirements.

PHL airport is pretty good. EWR has arguably the best international flight options in the country. Plus you have MDT which is super convenient but expensive and limited flight choices. Bottom line: PHL + EWR + MDT gets you anywhere in the world. And as a backup plan, if needed, you have IAD and LGA for more international flight options. It's a fun part of the world (eastern PA) to live, from a travel point of view.

Last suggestion for now - Schuylkill County is a notch lower in price and reputation, but might be a good option for you given where your kids are located. Schuylkill has less economic activity and fewer social activities but it might be interesting for you as a slower/quieter alternative. And still accessible to PHL and EWR.

[Out-to-Lunch]

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Originally Posted by chassis PHL airport is pretty good. EWR has arguably the best international flight options in the country. Plus you have MDT which is super convenient but expensive and limited flight choices. Bottom line: PHL + EWR + MDT gets you anywhere in the world. And as a backup plan, if needed, you have IAD and LGA for more international flight options. It's a fun part of the world (eastern PA) to live, from a travel point of view.

Agreed! Plus, of course, JFK.

[EastWest Gal]

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Originally Posted by EastWest Gal I live in south central PA, west of Harrisburg. I moved here from Silicon Valley in 1998 and did not look back. I spent one weekend house hunting and found the perfect house for us, so we took a chance and bought it. It worked out fine for us. If you get away from the Philly suburbs and go a bit farther west, it is much more affordable. I live in the greater Harrisburg area. Hershey is just east of that-world class medical care, and we are also accessible to Johns Hopkins and the many stellar hospitals in Philly. The faculty at Penn State Medical Center formed their own orchestra years ago. We have many community theaters, other music groups, and several colleges in the area, as well as lots of summer activities along the Susquehanna River. Minor league baseball in Harrisburg and York, HersheyPark, Gettysburg. Good hiking and walking areas. I'm west of Harrisburg and less than 5 miles from the Appalachian trail. I can take the train to NYC or Philadelphia, and Baltimore and DC are a two hour or less drive. One more thing about taxes: Property taxes are much lower in central PA than near Philly. PA doesn't tax retirement income as noted above. But they do have an inheritance tax. No tax for surviving spouse, 4.5% for adult children, 12% for siblings, 15% for the rest. Another plus-it's not as cold as in Michigan, but we do get some snow. I'd probably rent and explore to find out what situation works best for you.

I love it. Great school district, but son long graduated. I play in community music groups and a college group. Most people are down to earth. There is limited local skiing, short season though. Several different CCRCs when we get to that stage if we wish. House prices are relatively stable.

PM me if you have more questions.

[Sesq]

I live in Delaware County for the last 3 years. Its on the Delaware line and in my school district they raise all the money through the property tax. I pay over $15K/year on a 700K (pretty nice) house (possibly 800K now). I consider that to be HCOL but not like CA or NJ or the like. Before that I lived in Cumberland County (just west of Harrisburg) for 8 years and my (just as nice) house sold for just under 500K and we paid about $5K in property tax. In the midstate they could raise some of the money with a local income tax, whereas here, if a person worked in DE (like me) they would be able to pay the locals nothing as DE has a higher rate. Once the kids are done with school I will FIRE and we are moving out. We may need to stay instate if the kids are going to a state school.

I will say that the mid-state had more of a midwest feel to it, while the Philly area is definitely a northeast feel. I grew up in Boston, so either way is fine for me. My wife doesn't really like the "deep roots" / "I didn't go to school with you so I will ignore you" vibe of being around Philly.

We might look in Lancaster area as a middle ground post FIRE. I kind of like the York area since its closer to Baltimore/DC, although not York itself. We are staying put for now to get the kids through school.

[Octogirl]

I grew up in Chester County, later lived in Michigan (Oakland County) for 15 years, then moved back to southern Chester County 10 years ago.
So, I know both areas.
I agree that the mid-state Penna had more of a midwest feel to it, while the Philly area is definitely a northeast feel. My in laws lived west of Harrisburg

I am from Philly area, went to undergrad at a Philly U but still do not like the "deep roots" / "I didn't go to school with you so I will ignore you" vibe around Philly. My husband always lived in Michigan and when he moved here with me, complained that the roads have no shoulders !

If we were moving again we might look in Lancaster area, because it is close enough to good airports, U of Penna now owns one of the Lancaster Hospitals, so access to good health care is there, and my friends who live out there are more like my Michigan friends - very down to earth and sincere.
FWIW, we rented for 12 months before we bought a home here.
We stored a lot of furniture that in the end, did not "work" in our new home. DH and I say we would sell most everything if we moved again.
Good luck !

[RetiredAt55.5]

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Originally Posted by Octogirl I am from Philly area, went to undergrad at a Philly U but still do not like the "deep roots" / "I didn't go to school with you so I will ignore you" vibe around Philly. My husband always lived in Michigan and when he moved here with me, complained that the roads have no shoulders !

They used to have shoulders. Then some "genius" figured they could add a travel lane to heavily congested roads by repurposing the shoulders.

[Closet_Gamer]

Though currently ex-pat'ing in London, we lived outside Philly full time for 13 years and still maintain our residence there. We're northwest of Philly near Ambler.

Prior to the Philly area I grew up in Cleveland and then lived in Pittsburgh and Denver so I have a bit of perspective.

I'm generally a fan of the Philly area. I think its under-rated. Great sports, excellent arts/culture scene, a boatload of history at your doorstep, great restaurants, decent weather, a short hop to the ocean/NYC/DC and even some (baby) mountains nearby.

I find Philadelphia people to generally be kind. They're brusk (do you want onions on your steak or not? there's a line pal.) but stop just about anyone on the street and ask for directions and they will help you for sure. And riding the subway to an Eagles game with 500 drunk people in green singing the Eagles fight song is not to be missed. (But whatever you do, DO NOT board that train the opposing colors. Seriously, don't do it.)

There is a vibe of people who've been there for multiple generations and have a sometimes funny attachment to doing things a certain way. "Go to beach xyz, turn right on this street. I don't remember the name but there's a wawa on the corner. Hang a left on 13th street, not 15th, and go down two blocks. You can usually find a parking spot on the right near a big tree." LOL.

The city does have a growing homeless problem that was getting close to being out of control when I left. It made the train stations feel less safe and bit more grubby than usual. And, of course, like all big cities there are rough neighborhoods to avoid.

Real estate is pricey and taxes are high-ish. Unless you're planning on being in the city a lot, I would move pretty far outside of the city to get a nicer set-up for much less money. That said, if you want to be a city dweller ensure you're near a regional rail line and get comfortable with that plus the subway. Driving in/out of Philly is expensive and painful.

There is the option to live across the river in New Jersey. I would only do that if you want to go to the beach very frequently. Otherwise, I thinks its just expensive and overbuilt. One person's opinion. You could, however, consider getting something on the Jersey Shore. Its a long way from Philly but people love Cape May.

Drop me a PM if you want any insight on specific areas. I know the northwest suburbs of philly pretty well.

Good luck.

[Winemaker]

The other thing I forgot to mention; which struck me vividly 12 years ago when DS moved there and continues to this day. "Brusk" might not be the right word, but f-bombs just flow off peoples tongues, male and female. I'm not a prude, but I left my "foreman's vocabulary" underground in the coal mine everyday, and not home.

[Closet_Gamer]

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Originally Posted by Winemaker The other thing I forgot to mention; which struck me vividly 12 years ago when DS moved there and continues to this day. "Brusk" might not be the right word, but f-bombs just flow off peoples tongues, male and female. I'm not a prude, but I left my "foreman's vocabulary" underground in the coal mine everyday, and not home.

Ha! True. The f-word is used like a punctuation mark by some people.

[dirtbiker]

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Originally Posted by MrsHaloFIRE Sorry to offend. But we spent a 6 weeks there at one point and that was my opinion. The drivers don't plan. They drive like they're the only ppl on the road and haven't decided where they are going yet. Like I said thats my opinion. Some ppl obviously ok with it. I recall moving my FIL from a hospital to a temp rehab to a rest home. All geographically close. Used google maps. Took forever to drive between. I do love that its very lush and green and the old stone homes and appreciate the availability of scrapple and link bologna. When we lived near Harrisburg/ Carlisle I found those drivers to be better. Where I live in TX there are very poor drivers also but the habits are different. They are extremely aggressive and allow no distance between cars. They plan, but they plan on being jerks. I've seen WILD things. Feel free to insult my traffic if you don't like it. I will agree with you.

Cognitive dissonance alert! It sounds like you fall into the aggressive driving category as well, which you describe as "they." I think you should change that pronoun to "we." Maybe that's why it seems like everyone from the southeast Pennsylvania area is empty headed, takes too long at stop signs, drives like they don't have a plan, etc.

[Third Son]

I thank everyone for their useful information about moving. I understand that driving habits can be a contentious subject so please keep the discussion to moving to a new area. Thanks!

[target2019]

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Originally Posted by Closet_Gamer Though currently ex-pat'ing in London, we lived outside Philly full time for 13 years and still maintain our residence there. We're northwest of Philly near Ambler. Prior to the Philly area I grew up in Cleveland and then lived in Pittsburgh and Denver so I have a bit of perspective. I'm generally a fan of the Philly area. I think its under-rated. Great sports, excellent arts/culture scene, a boatload of history at your doorstep, great restaurants, decent weather, a short hop to the ocean/NYC/DC and even some (baby) mountains nearby. I find Philadelphia people to generally be kind. They're brusk (do you want onions on your steak or not? there's a line pal.) but stop just about anyone on the street and ask for directions and they will help you for sure. And riding the subway to an Eagles game with 500 drunk people in green singing the Eagles fight song is not to be missed. (But whatever you do, DO NOT board that train the opposing colors. Seriously, don't do it.) There is a vibe of people who've been there for multiple generations and have a sometimes funny attachment to doing things a certain way. "Go to beach xyz, turn right on this street. I don't remember the name but there's a wawa on the corner. Hang a left on 13th street, not 15th, and go down two blocks. You can usually find a parking spot on the right near a big tree." LOL. The city does have a growing homeless problem that was getting close to being out of control when I left. It made the train stations feel less safe and bit more grubby than usual. And, of course, like all big cities there are rough neighborhoods to avoid. Real estate is pricey and taxes are high-ish. Unless you're planning on being in the city a lot, I would move pretty far outside of the city to get a nicer set-up for much less money. That said, if you want to be a city dweller ensure you're near a regional rail line and get comfortable with that plus the subway. Driving in/out of Philly is expensive and painful. There is the option to live across the river in New Jersey. I would only do that if you want to go to the beach very frequently. Otherwise, I thinks its just expensive and overbuilt. One person's opinion. You could, however, consider getting something on the Jersey Shore. Its a long way from Philly but people love Cape May. Drop me a PM if you want any insight on specific areas. I know the northwest suburbs of philly pretty well. Good luck.

I've been in Phila. and the suburban areas my entire life. That makes for over 65 years of seeing most of this through aging eyes. What I knew as a child is culturally different than what I see now. If I talked about one 10-year period, it would give someone in 2021 a historical perspective, but would be very different than a recommendation. Overall this region has made progress in steady fashion.

People move to South Jersey communities for many of the same reasons as they move to Bucks County, for example. If you live in a higher-income area you tend to have more space, better schools, etc. Having lived in SJ for over thirty years, I would not trade this experience. Many who live in the region of Phila. have roots in the city. So the comparison that gets made is the city vs. suburbs.

SJ can have a quicker commute into the city. From here it's 20 minutes. There's a rail ine that takes you to work, and most of the Phila.Center City stops. So that was a major decision factor for us, as we wanted to avoid the regional transportation (SEPTA).

Jersey shore properties are generally higher, being very desirable for as long as I can remember. Living at the shore can be a real test, with weather extremes and summer traffic. But I do know one couple who moved from here to Cape May County and have done well. I also know retirees who went to Southern Delaware, where the lifestyle is similar, with lower taxes. Delaware should be on the list of places to consider. The key consideration in my opinion would be to live west of Route 9, anywhere along the Atlantic coast of NJ.

Phila., being a large city, has similar problems to NYC. Go to a NY football Giants game wearing an Eagles jersey and we can discuss.

Homeless problems in every major city grow and subside. I remember seeing homeless persons shuffling along the streets when I was a child. Phila. is one of the cities that has been more tolerant of the homeless, in my opinion. If you're homeless, you go where you're tolerated. Unabated, this tolerance can lead to unpleasant situations in every city.