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Old 05-31-2021, 02:56 PM   #101
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This is NOT an advertisement to put money at EJ but i cant complain about my profits at EJ. For sure i am NO MATH scholar but i do keep the values of my account each month. I probably should be worried about every nickle or dime but I am happy if they are making me money.

My EJ account on 6/01/2020 was worth 227K. When i got my statement today my 6/01/2021 its now worth 298k. I also took a $13.500 RMD out in January for a total of $311k for this time period. Yes the load fees were paid, the management fees are higher but its hard for me to see the poor fund preformance. When my EJ account quits making me money i willl MOVE it. I would not now put money at EJ but my grandfathered account has done very good.
People who don't benchmark their results are the ones putting the Porsches into brokers' garages. The industry thanks you.
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Old 05-31-2021, 03:10 PM   #102
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Had you invested in VTSAX over that same time frame, a rough estimate is that you would have had right around $10K more money now.
THANKS for NOT comparing apple to apples. Playing your game VTSAX is not really that good. I could have invested in NEXTX and make $135k more than VTSAX.
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Old 05-31-2021, 03:18 PM   #103
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People who don't benchmark their results are the ones putting the Porsches into brokers' garages. The industry thanks you.
He let me buy a Porsches FIRST so why should i mind if he drives a nice car ALSO.
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Old 05-31-2021, 03:25 PM   #104
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Bruno,

Sounds like your account did well - can you share what is in it?

If all "managed" and your broker is doing it, could be a great broker - but, we would need to understand some specifics.

If all index funds, then the question is how much more are you paying for the EJ broker?
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Old 05-31-2021, 03:25 PM   #105
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He let me buy a Porsches FIRST so why should i mind if he drives a nice car ALSO.
I can't say whether you should mind or not. That's your call.

For myself (and, IMO many others here), the notion of pi$$ing away large amounts of money by deliberately investing with a high cost broker is a complete non-starter.
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Old 05-31-2021, 03:38 PM   #106
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....
For myself (and, IMO many others here), the notion of pi$$ing away large amounts of money by deliberately investing with a high cost broker is a complete non-starter.
While most here probably would want to take the road that leads to the greatest net financial return, that is not the only consideration for some. Turning over investment responsibility to someone else has a certain psychic comfort value to them (if their investments go bad, they've got someone else to blame and they don't need to be ever alert to the markets). Those people are willing to pay a cash price for that comfort by accepting lower returns net of fees. That is not an irrational position. If their return net of fees is adequate for their needs, why should they make themselves uncomfortable chasing every last dime?

As the French say, "À chacun son goût".
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Old 05-31-2021, 03:50 PM   #107
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Bruno,

Sounds like your account did well - can you share what is in it?

If all index funds, then the question is how much more are you paying for the EJ broker?
This was a inherited acct. from my dad and there is NO AUM fees as far as i can see. I was goiing to move it to VG and was told the account was grandfathered and only fees on new money. I do not put any NEW money in EJ.

Broker acct FKDNX, FKGRX and FRDPX.

Inherited IRA AMCPX, ABALX, ANCFX, ANWPX, SMCWX, OPPAX AND Bond money in JP Morgan.
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Old 05-31-2021, 04:13 PM   #108
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As the French say, "À chacun son goût".
Yup. That's why I said "For myself ... "

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While most here probably would want to take the road that leads to the greatest net financial return, that is not the only consideration for some. Turning over investment responsibility to someone else has a certain psychic comfort value to them (if their investments go bad, they've got someone else to blame and they don't need to be ever alert to the markets). Those people are willing to pay a cash price for that comfort by accepting lower returns net of fees. That is not an irrational position. If their return net of fees is adequate for their needs, why should they make themselves uncomfortable chasing every last dime?
I get that, but I view it primarily as an education problem. That's why I ended up agreeing to teach my Adult-Ed investment class. Passive portfolios do not "go bad" and they do not require their owners to even follow the markets, never mind having to be "alert." Oh, and over long periods they beat 95% of stock pickers. Once those things are understood, people can be pretty darn comfortable. Bill Schultheis does an excellent job of explaining this. ("The Coffee House Investor")
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Old 05-31-2021, 04:18 PM   #109
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THANKS for NOT comparing apple to apples. Playing your game VTSAX is not really that good. I could have invested in NEXTX and make $135k more than VTSAX.
You could have. From a brief perusal of that fund, you would have also had higher fees, taxes, and risk. Which is precisely why I included my last sentence in my previous post (which you left out of your quote from my post).

Comparing returns after fees and taxes and on a risk-adjusted basis is exactly the way to compare apples to apples. If your portfolio has beaten VTSAX on that basis, then I'm happy for you.

In my experience, very few people choose to do those calculations, and very few can do them properly.
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Old 05-31-2021, 04:41 PM   #110
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Yup. That's why I said "For myself ... "

I get that, but I view it primarily as an education problem. That's why I ended up agreeing to teach my Adult-Ed investment class. Passive portfolios do not "go bad" and they do not require their owners to even follow the markets, never mind having to be "alert." Oh, and over long periods they beat 95% of stock pickers. Once those things are understood, people can be pretty darn comfortable. Bill Schultheis does an excellent job of explaining this. ("The Coffee House Investor")

You don't have to sell your case to me. I have always managed my own investments and am now down to mostly mutual fund investments, with only two individual stock positions remaining (I used to have more but I got tired of having to pay so much attention to them). But I understand that not everyone wants to be just like me. It's their money, so they can do it their way. I'll do it my way with my money, and we can all be happy. No need for anyone to proselytize. I mean, really, it gets tiresome.
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Old 05-31-2021, 05:09 PM   #111
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He let me buy a Porsches FIRST so why should i mind if he drives a nice car ALSO.
I don't have a Porsche.
Just a Mustang.
I must be doing something wrong...
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Old 05-31-2021, 05:15 PM   #112
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I don't have a Porsche.
Just a Mustang.
I must be doing something wrong...
That's how it works at Jones, you're driving the Mustang and your advisor is driving the Porsche.
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Old 05-31-2021, 05:22 PM   #113
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As the French say, "À chacun son goût".
God, I wish I knew French...
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Old 05-31-2021, 06:51 PM   #114
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God, I wish I knew French...
Some people wish they knew French, some don't. To each his own.
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Old 05-31-2021, 07:00 PM   #115
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5.75% front load plus high ER makes it not worth it. He is happy emotionally but has he ran the numbers and comparisons?
I don't know if EJ has funds that aren't loaded, maybe my friend has some of those if they exist at EJ. 5.75% FE load is criminal, heck I think 75 or 100 bp is highway robbery!

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....
I've always thought that the proper metric is not "are they making me money" - when markets are going up like they have over the time period you're talking about almost everyone made money. I've always looked at after fees, after taxes, risk adjusted rate of return compared to applicable benchmarks.
I suspect my friend has been investing a good chunk of money and due to the bull market since 3/9/2009 the market has rewarded him. He doesn't look at this and say if I did this myself I could have $X more.

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While most here probably would want to take the road that leads to the greatest net financial return, that is not the only consideration for some. Turning over investment responsibility to someone else has a certain psychic comfort value to them (if their investments go bad, they've got someone else to blame and they don't need to be ever alert to the markets). Those people are willing to pay a cash price for that comfort by accepting lower returns net of fees. That is not an irrational position. If their return net of fees is adequate for their needs, why should they make themselves uncomfortable chasing every last dime?

As the French say, "À chacun son goût".
I think this is my friend's thinking. He works constantly and has no desire to monitor or decide what to invest in. He relies upon his EJ rep and is very happy with him. His attitude is he doesn't mind paying someone what they say they are worth as long as he is satisfied with the end result. Add to that his wife has absolutely no idea how to invest and has less than zero interest in learning. As such, he feels his EJ rep will take care of her should he not be in the picture. Personally, I could never pay the fees and loads he is but that is me. I have the time and enjoy it though at this point I have a few index funds and keep my hands off them and ride out downturns. Some like vanilla and some like chocolate ice cream. I learned that my advice was unwelcome and I won't tell him how he is getting the shaft and could do this easily at one of the fund families that have very low costs. It's his money and he is content.
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Old 05-31-2021, 08:47 PM   #116
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Between these two, Vanguard in a nano-second.
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Old 05-31-2021, 08:50 PM   #117
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I am learning the hard way. I have been with EJ since 2007 and now looking to leave.
I know your feeling. My plan is to leave the money in EJ to my kids but when my dad died, EJ sold all funds to divide three ways and we all 3 paid the 3.5% to 4% front load fee's again. This amount let us pay a smaller load fee. At the time I didnt even know about front load fee's. I do NOW.

I am looking at moving this account to VG. I dont want my kids make the same mistake i did.
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Old 05-31-2021, 08:57 PM   #118
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I don't have a Porsche.
Just a Mustang.
I must be doing something wrong...
YES you are. Investing into low cost index funds... You have to have money to make money.

We will see if the Mega posters go crazy on this post but I am JK.
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Old 05-31-2021, 08:59 PM   #119
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https://www.early-retirement.org/for...ml#post2614329

https://www.early-retirement.org/for...ml#post2614354

Yes.

I know . . . blind links. These posts are from this forum.

If one is too lazy to read these linked posts, then just ignore and continue.

"If their return net of fees is adequate for their needs, why should they make themselves uncomfortable chasing every last dime?"

"But I understand that not everyone wants to be just like me. It's their money, so they can do it their way. I'll do it my way with my money, and we can all be happy. No need for anyone to proselytize. I mean, really, it gets tiresome."

My bold: it gets tiresome

It seems that some people just don't "get it".
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Old 06-01-2021, 04:03 AM   #120
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I know your feeling. My plan is to leave the money in EJ to my kids but when my dad died, EJ sold all funds to divide three ways and we all 3 paid the 3.5% to 4% front load fee's again. This amount let us pay a smaller load fee. At the time I didnt even know about front load fee's. I do NOW.

I am looking at moving this account to VG. I dont want my kids make the same mistake i did.
I think charging front load fees again after death of a loved one mores giant negative on the house of EJ.
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