Eliminating debt is my main FIRE goal

The recent (and past) comments about how "freeing" it is to be debt free are very fascinating to me, I guess that is why I keep coming back to this.

I mean, I understand that different things appeal to different people. One person's idea of the perfect vacation is to sit on the beach and get caught up in a book, but that might be hell on earth for the adventure seeker. Different strokes and all.

But when it comes to financial decisions, I just don't get that there is anything else to consider other than the likely financial outcome. I understand that people have different risk tolerance levels, but the FIRECALC runs I have done show that holding the debt provides (slightly) *less* risk, (slightly) *less* volatility, and (slightly) *higher* success rates.

So do you see why I am confused that people describe a path that may entail (slightly) *more* risk as "freeing"? It is cognitive dissonance for me.



Maybe one more parallel story to illustrate:

I've known people who would rev up their car real good just before shutting it off. It made them "feel good" - they thought they were "burning off carbon", or "getting oil everywhere for the next start". But most car guys know that this is *not* recommended, it is likely to increase wear on the engine, and most car manuals recommend against it (esp if turbo).

So, do you suggest to them that maybe this isn't as helpful as they think, and may actually be harmful? They should appreciate the helpful advice. Or, do you decide that you don't want to disturb their "feel good" mood, and just keep quiet when their turbo freezes up?

Now, if you have mentioned it and they just insist on doing it, sure, let them be, it is their decision, it may not hurt their car anyway. But, if every time you see them at a get together, they are telling other people how good it makes them feel to rev up the engine before shutting it down, isn't it reasonable to inform those people that they may want to read their manual, and check for themselves?

Sorry for the long post, just trying to cover as many bases as I can. As I say, this is fascinating to me.

-ERD50


Three comments to think about:

1) I think that "risk" is not just about where I end up 30 years from now. It also involves how well I sleep at night between now and then. Short term volatility is one valid definition of "risk".

2) Doesn't age (really, other risks) have something to do with this? A working person without much for current assets has an immediate risk of getting fired exactly when the economy is bad and the market is down. A retiree with a comfortable portfolio may feel that short term ups and downs are irrelevant.

3) When you set up a FireCalc run, shouldn't the results of paying off the mortgage be the same as buying a fixed bond for the same interest rate? If so, this seems like an AA question. I'm not sure what bond/stock mix FireCalc finds as optimal, but I thought there was a fairly wide band of "pretty good".
 
Everybody has to decide what they want to do with their money. Some people buy cars, some spend it on trips scuba diving, some spend it playing golf. Deciding whether you want to pay off your mortgage and live debt free is one of those choices. Going scuba diving in the Cayman's won't get you any closer to retirement, but if it's what you want to do, fine go diving. Paying off my mortgage may not get me to retirement faster, but I sleep well and enjoy life more.
 
Not sure if this is a rhetorical question or not.

If you have used FIRECALC, you'd know that it can only "take into consideration" what you input. So, if you want to input the possibility of getting a reverse mortgage at a later point in time, I guess you could give that a go. A couple things to consider:

1) Typically, one would consider a reverse mortgage late in the cycle, right? I mean, if everything is going well, portfolio is intact, you just would not bother, I would think.

2) Since the runs I've done show that holding the mortgage improves your success rate, the odds of needing to do a reverse mortgage would be less if you held a mortgage (again, your data may provide a different result).

3) By the time you might need to consider to go reverse, the mortgage would probably be paid off or paid down to a small amount - probably not a big diff either way.

4) I'm not sure how you would input a reverse mortgage at say, year 28 of a 35 year FIRECALC run. The rates you receive today may be far different from the rates that would be offered under whatever the scenario is that trashes a portfolio after 28 years. High inflation might mean high rates paid out, low rates under other conditions?


-ERD50

It was not a rhetorical question, I was wondering how FIRECALC could possibly take into account the flexibility that paying off your mortgage provides. If it just handles it inflexibly as money out of the system being repaid at present rates, since the long term averages are over the present mortgage rates over time it would appear to always take the mortgage.

Thinking about this the only logical comparison to me would be determine the success rate with inputs of the value realized if a reverse mortgage were immediately implemented. That would seem to be the present value to the owner of paying off the mortgage whether realized or not. This value would grow as the owner aged (reverse mortgage payment would increase assuming the same interest rate and home value), so that depending on the age of the homeowner the present value of paying off the mortgage would vary also effecting the firecalc outcomes, making less availing of generalizations of the value of paying a mortgage and requiring more individual inputs.
 
If Nun is calculating that the 4.5% mortgage rate is a good investment then what about keep that liquidity handy in case interest rates go up. What about investing that money at 6% instead of paying off the mortgage?

If one is basing one's investment decision on the likelihood of a double dip in the stock market, then shouldn't one also consider the likelihood of interest rates going up?

I agree, which is why I only put 50% of my after tax gains towards the mortgage and leave the rest in the market.
If I could get 6% in a MM or savings fund I'd let it compound, but right now that's not going to happen. Also I have a 50/50 mix in my tax deferred investments so I'm participating in this run up. I actually just did a 6 month rebalancing of those
 
I'd say eliminating debt is "a" FIRE goal. I ws pretty much down to a low rate mortgage that will be paid off before I FIRE and a student loan at a laughably low interest rate, but I intentionally borrowed $50k on my HELOC to buy stupidly priced bonds at the start of the year. Now that the bonds are nearing par, I am liquidating and paying down the HELOC (and laughing all the way to the bank). Leverage can be a very valuable tool. As "Machine Gun" Kelly said, "Its an instrument: play it."
 
It was not a rhetorical question, I was wondering how FIRECALC could possibly take into account the flexibility that paying off your mortgage provides. If it just handles it inflexibly as money out of the system being repaid at present rates, since the long term averages are over the present mortgage rates over time it would appear to always take the mortgage.

Thinking about this the only logical comparison to me would be determine the success rate with inputs of the value realized if a reverse mortgage were immediately implemented. That would seem to be the present value to the owner of paying off the mortgage whether realized or not. This value would grow as the owner aged (reverse mortgage payment would increase assuming the same interest rate and home value), so that depending on the age of the homeowner the present value of paying off the mortgage would vary also effecting the firecalc outcomes, making less availing of generalizations of the value of paying a mortgage and requiring more individual inputs.

I'm sorry, I am not following you with the reverse mortgage simulation. Also not following " flexibility that paying off your mortgage provides" - I consider having the added liquidity to be extra flexibility.

All I've done in FIRECALC is along the lines of:

A) 35 year span, $1.2M portfolio, 3.5% WR, add in a non-inflation adjusted annual payment for a 30 year $200,000 mortgage.

B) 35 year span, $1M portfolio ($200K less to pay off mortgage), 3.5% WR, no added mort payment.

Use whatever numbers match your scenario and see. If you think the tax hit of the added withdraw will be greater than the tax deduction, add some marginal tax rate to the mortgage payment. This becomes a guess- who knows what taxes will be and whether it would all be taxed (some might be from a Roth, some might not have cap gains associated, etc). But even at 15% on the whole nut, my runs showed a small advantage to holding the mortgage.

Does that help? - ERD50
 
I agree, which is why I only put 50% of my after tax gains towards the mortgage and leave the rest in the market.
If I could get 6% in a MM or savings fund I'd let it compound, but right now that's not going to happen. Also I have a 50/50 mix in my tax deferred investments so I'm participating in this run up. I actually just did a 6 month rebalancing of those

I agree interest rates aren't likely to reach 6% very soon. But in 18 months? Your crystal ball is as good as mine.:D

Another consideration is your location. Where I live in colorado I could see housing prices continue to decline a little. I would hesitate to pay down my mortgage in this situation, rather keep the liquidity and invest.
 
I agree interest rates aren't likely to reach 6% very soon. But in 18 months? Your crystal ball is as good as mine.:D

Another consideration is your location. Where I live in colorado I could see housing prices continue to decline a little. I would hesitate to pay down my mortgage in this situation, rather keep the liquidity and invest.

I'm in Boston so prices haven't fallen as much as in some other places. The price is down 15% from the high in 2006, but is now on the way back up. Also as I own a 2 family I get rent from it so once the mortgage is paid off I'll be able to ER and the rent will go a long way to covering my expenses.
 
Everybody has to decide what they want to do with their money. Some people buy cars, some spend it on trips scuba diving, some spend it playing golf. Deciding whether you want to pay off your mortgage and live debt free is one of those choices. Going scuba diving in the Cayman's won't get you any closer to retirement, but if it's what you want to do, fine go diving. Paying off my mortgage may not get me to retirement faster, but I sleep well and enjoy life more.

But this seems like a very different argument to me, and gets to the core of why I keep trying to understand why people feel this way.

Certainly, we trade money for things we enjoy, things we value. What I value may be different from what you value. I agree with you. And, we may enjoy some of those things more than we fear the delay they may put in our retirement. I'm frugal in many ways, but I was not going to live like a hermit to speed along my FIRE date.

But, this "pay off the debt" thing is comparing money to money. In the most basic terms:

Net Worth = Assets minus Liabilities.

A) $3M Assets minus $2M liabilities = $1M Net Worth

B) $1M Assets minus $zero liabilities = $1M Net Worth

Why do so many seem to value B over A when they are equal? Or even if FIRECALC indicates that A>B?

I don't get it.


-ERD50
 
"Net Worth = Assets minus Liabilities.
A) $3M Assets minus $2M liabilities = $1M Net Worth
B) $1M Assets minus $zero liabilities = $1M Net Worth
Why do so many seem to value B over A when they are equal? Or even if FIRECALC indicates that A>B?"

For me, the difference is that I would have $3M available to invest and build on. A 10% increase for A nets me $300K. For B I only get $100K. For mortgages, I know, on a visceral level, that paying off the mortgage will make me feel more liberated. But I will also have that much less money to invest and have available for an emergency. If you are 45 and working full time in a well paying job, you can pay off the mortgage and be fairly certain you can take out a new one if you need the money.

Once you get past 60 and are retired, banks are not really that enthusiastic to lend you money unless you have a good cash flow - meaning money coming in. They don't care what you have in savings - in fact, if you have it in savings, then they ask why are you asking the bank for a mortgage? The problem I have seen people have, especially in today's banking and lending environment, is that they can't get large loans in an emergency if they only have SS and investment income, no matter what the value of their home is.

We will pay off our mortgage eventually - 7 or 8 years, but, if we move, I'll start another one. No one solution is good for everyone and my goal is to have no debt other than a mortgage when I retire.
 
But, this "pay off the debt" thing is comparing money to money. In the most basic terms:

Net Worth = Assets minus Liabilities.

A) $3M Assets minus $2M liabilities = $1M Net Worth

B) $1M Assets minus $zero liabilities = $1M Net Worth

Why do so many seem to value B over A when they are equal? Or even if FIRECALC indicates that A>B?

I don't get it.


-ERD50

Certainty is the answer. FIRECALC is software that uses historical data to give you a projection. Given recent events certainty is pretty appealing. It all comes down to your risk tolerance. US bonds look pretty safe, but with the level of debt in this country some of us must have wondered if the Argentinian experience is at all possible here. I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket, just paying down the mortgage with half of my stock market gains and letting the rest ride.
 
But this seems like a very different argument to me, and gets to the core of why I keep trying to understand why people feel this way.

Certainly, we trade money for things we enjoy, things we value. What I value may be different from what you value. I agree with you. And, we may enjoy some of those things more than we fear the delay they may put in our retirement. I'm frugal in many ways, but I was not going to live like a hermit to speed along my FIRE date.

But, this "pay off the debt" thing is comparing money to money. In the most basic terms:

Net Worth = Assets minus Liabilities.

A) $3M Assets minus $2M liabilities = $1M Net Worth

B) $1M Assets minus $zero liabilities = $1M Net Worth

Why do so many seem to value B over A when they are equal? Or even if FIRECALC indicates that A>B?

I don't get it.


-ERD50

Just to try to help you understand. Have you ever taken anything like a Myers-Briggs test? They clearly indicate that there are different types of personalities. I suspect you are like me, and fall heavily into the Analytical range of any such test. But I've come to realize that most people aren't like that. So knowing the numbers work out doesn't neccesarily help them sleep better at night. For some of those people, not having debt is worth more than the empty (to them) knowledge that the odds are better if they do something different.

It's not quantifiable. It's just people. I wouldn't be able to wrap my head around it so well if DW wasn't so strongly in the EF range. She's explained (loudly, often, and passionately :LOL:) that we are just different. Sort an "I am from Mars, and she is from some bizarre alternate reality" thing.

What I try to do now is offer my opinion once (or twice), then let it go. Sometimes she comes around to my way of thinking after a time, sometimes she doesn't. IMHO, it's much more important to get along than to be "right". For some reason it seems that the righter I am, the less often I get lucky. :D
 
But, this "pay off the debt" thing is comparing money to money. In the most basic terms:

Net Worth = Assets minus Liabilities.

A) $3M Assets minus $2M liabilities = $1M Net Worth

B) $1M Assets minus $zero liabilities = $1M Net Worth

Why do so many seem to value B over A when they are equal? Or even if FIRECALC indicates that A>B?

I don't get it.


-ERD50

I think nun's answer is the most common one for paying off a mortgage. You just know where you stand. Firecalc says you probably will do better investing that money, but you don't know that. I understand that paying off the mortgage is more conservative, and a conservative plan can be more risky to long term economic survival, but Firecalc isn't a guarantee.

Another reason is that a bank can't take away your house if I don't have a mortgage. Just one example, if I miss that my mortgage is sold and my payments aren't made to the right company, they might foreclose after some time. I don't have to worry about that. It's more than just money. It's the roof over your head.

Then there's the human nature that if I have the money available, I might spend it. We all know the stories of the people who take out a 2nd mortgage or home equity loan and blow the money. Most of us would never do that, but this takes away the temptation.

In my own case, I never took out a mortgage on the house I'm in, so I never had to pay a loan origination fee or any other fees. If the numbers are close as you say, perhaps I came out ahead because I never paid those fees. That's a different case from paying off an existing loan.

Also in my case, the bubble burst shortly after I bought my house. I probably would've sold the house and bought smaller (in my case I'd have moved full-time to Texas rather than keeping 2 residences) because I'd have had trouble making the payments. Part of that was due to poor diversification at the time, but that was the fact of my situation. Instead, I sat on the house and it has appreciated well.
 
But when it comes to financial decisions, I just don't get that there is anything else to consider other than the likely financial outcome. I understand that people have different risk tolerance levels, but the FIRECALC runs I have done show that holding the debt provides (slightly) *less* risk, (slightly) *less* volatility, and (slightly) *higher* success rates.

So do you see why I am confused that people describe a path that may entail (slightly) *more* risk as "freeing"? It is cognitive dissonance for me.

For me, I think the word "likely" is the key phrase in your analysis above.

Everyone's circumstances are different, but here's one example:

Mid-thirties, still working toward FIRE, maxing out all tax deferred accounts, nice emergency fund stashed up, college savings for kids on target. Now the question is, for the extra savings/investing, how should it be allocated such that it helps bring me to FIRE as soon as possible?

Sure, doing some pure financial analysis might say that I should continue to invest this money in taxable accounts, at my calcuated asset allocation (let's hypothetically say 75% stocks). But that's based on "likely" outcomes, "average" returns, etc.

As we all know, things don't always follow the average or likely scenario. The last 10 years have taught me that. Who knows what the future may hold.

If I throw all of my taxable savings at my long term asset allocation, I may come out OK in the long run, but along the way I may have made little (or negative) gain after a decade of investing. There may be long periods of time where my taxable savings aren't doing anything to get me closer to FIRE, aren't growing, may even be shrinking, and all the while I'm still slaving away at the j*b to pay the monthly nut on that debt. And I need to keep that j*b to keep making those payments. I'm more locked in.

Alternatively, if I used some of all of those savings to pay down debt, I can reach a point where I no longer have that monthly nut to pay the debt. I may not have enough to FIRE, my FIRE stash will be less because I've invested less in taxable account. But I have more flexibility. I can switch to a lower paying job with less stress, or maybe part-time work, or maybe start my own business, all because I no longer have that monthly nut to pay in debt and interest. Sure, I may decide to stick with my job and accelerate the FIRE stash, but it gives me options and future flexibility that I don't get from locking my money into long-term investments that are "likely" to pay off in the long-run, but that require me to maintain my current income in the meantime.

There are obviously lots of factors in the example above: your age, the type of job you have (high stress high pay? something you might want to downsize? at risk for layoffs? or a 9-to-5 ho-hum job that you have no plans to change before FIRE and that is rock solid like working for Uncle Sam?), the certainty of your plans post-FIRE, etc.

But the bottom line, for me anyway, is that by splitting my savings between investments and paying down debt is a way for me to reach the flexibility and financial independence that fits my circumstances. Even if it is, perhaps, not the way to maximize my gains under the most "likely" scenario.

And in any case, it's certainly not comparable to revving the engine before turning off the car, which has been shown with certainty to be a harmful activity that has zero positive results.
 
Thanks for the thoughtful replies everyone. I'll try to answer a bit more generally, rather than drag this out point-by-point...


Just to try to help you understand. Have you ever taken anything like a Myers-Briggs test? ...

Yes, and this is exactly why I try to question those who view this differently. I am trying to understand what/how they come to this, so that I can better communicate with them about it. I am trying to see it from their angle. I can't do that w/o asking, because I simply do not think that way. I could ignore them, but then I learn nothing. I covered some of this on the other thread...

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/bragging-new-frugal-generation-45576-new-post.html



Certainty is the answer.

Ahhhh... you know, I think we are getting somewhere here. Let me re-phrase that, and say it is the "perception of certainty that is appealing". And as has been said, "perception is reality" (for some).

Yes, I'm sure these people "perceive" it as "certainty". However, we (should) know there is no such thing. Some people might like 100% cash for "certainty", but that actually has a higher "certainty" of failure over a 30+ year retirement. It isn't a positive type of "certainty", but it is a type of "certainty" (well, relative certainty, I guess).

Back in the mid 80's, I started pre-paying my mortgage, thinking it was the "right thing to do", and guess what - I "felt good" doing it, I was pretty darn proud of myself. After analyzing it years later, I realized it wasn't great, maybe a slight negative. But it took the numbers for me to realize that.

Just to be clear, I've never told anyone they should or should not pay down their debt. I have suggested that they run the numbers and see. When I've run the numbers, they always show a *slight* advantage for holding the debt - so I really don't think it is a big deal either way. But that is why I bring this up when people act as if it *is* a big deal. A lot of people seem to be creating a false sense of security over paying down the debt, when they may be actually doing the opposite. I just think they should understand what it really means for them. Run the numbers.

As we all know, things don't always follow the average or likely scenario. The last 10 years have taught me that. Who knows what the future may hold.

True, but remember that the FIRECALC failures are the *worst* periods. So, if a FIRECALC run for you shows that holding the debt helped, that means it was better in the worst of times (I suspect the higher portfolio provides a better buffer). Now, would it be better if things were worse than the historic worsts? I don't know, but I can't think of any reason to suspect it wouldn't.


Then there's the human nature that if I have the money available, I might spend it. We all know the stories of the people who take out a 2nd mortgage or home equity loan and blow the money.

Well, that is a behavioral issue that I think would keep someone from ever building a nest egg in the first place. They just won't be able to keep from dipping into the till for goodies.

I do know people who say they use a high income tax withholding, or an insurance policy as "forced savings". But I don't know anyone who did that and built up a nest egg for ER.

Thanks all - that was helpful to me. And I may just be "talked out" on this issue for awhile ;)

-ERD50
 
Last edited:
Also in the "Fire and Money" forum is a thread called "Value of USD". In that thread was a reference to the value of holding debt when one anticipated inflation rearing its ugly rear in the near future (at least, that's the way I interpreted the poster's comments). I suppose it becomes "market timing" to consider a mortgage as an inflation hedge, but it makes as much sense as some other strategies, for handling inflation.

I fall into the "pay off the mortgage for the peace of mind" camp. However, since I just obtained a mortgage, I'm rethinking paying if off quickly. And inflation is probably the only reason I'm thinking that. I have no better crystal ball than most of you, but my cloudy orb suggests that spending trillions we don't have just might lead to inflation. In that case, the mortgage could hedge against it - presuming I can find appropriate investments for the money I otherwise would use to pay off the mortgage.

I mention this because I think it might tip the scales of mortgage/no mortgage if one were convinced that inflation would soon roar. I make no recommendation, but mention it only for discussion (and to clarify my own thoughts and seek everyone's council.)
 
http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/bragging-new-frugal-generation-45576-new-post.html

Ahhhh... you know, I think we are getting somewhere here. Let me re-phrase that, and say it is the "perception of certainty that is appealing". And as has been said, "perception is reality" (for some).

-ERD50

All our computations and models rely on historical data and I was with ERD50 for a long time. But we all know that time horizon and future market returns will change the results of such calculations, a few down years going into ER is always possible. So I will continue to take 50% of my gains and put it into the mortgage as insurance against years of negative returns.
 
Regarding my comment about blowing the money you could have used to pay off the mortgage, it doesn't have to be for goodies. Some people are market timers, and may be too aggressive in their investing. Anyone remember when PALM went public? I knew a guy who said he was going to buy every share he could because everyone he knew had a Palm Pilot, and he was certain it would take off.
 
I've been retired for 10 years and the online mortgage debate has been going for at least that long. Frankly, there hasn't been much new in the debate for a long time, but IMO the events in the past year are so dramatic I think they are worth looking at the pay off/keep mortgage with a fresher perspective.


I personally, I have had and not had mortgages while working, and also had both situations while retired. I will say there is a psychological benefit for being debt free, but there is also a certain amount of angst by owning a house free and clear. (more on that later)

1. Forecasting tools such FIRECalc are of limited value because the range of individual outcomes varies greatly and missing data in FIRECalc

2008 was extraordinary year, and it seems to me a much more relevant event than string of market years in 1908, FIRECalc and similar calculators treat all years the same.

Right now my decision to take out a 4.99 Home Equity loan and invest in income producing assets in Jan 2008, is looking like my worse financial decision in my life. If I made this decision 15 or 16 years ago instead of paying off the mortgage, the outcome would have been much different.

One of the things that FIRECalc doesn't do, that is highly relevant to real retirees, is to model a best CD rate. US T-bond bonds, commercial paper are certainly correlated with CDs but I am not sure how close. It seems to me that typically I can get better CD rate than the corresponding T-bond rate.

I remember thinking back in late 2007, "Wow Penfed is giving my 6% on my 3 year CD and now a few months latter they are loaning me money at 4.99%, what a no brainer. Of course now I realize that next year I am not likely to be able to get close to 6% for a CD, but I am free to pay down the mortgage.

I suspect that ability to get "safe" CD rates higher than FIRECalc shows for fixed income tilts the argument in favor of keeping the mortgage.

2. There is no truly safe investment.
One of the absolutely true statements in favor of paying of the mortgage is that if I pay of a mortgage at 6% I am making 6% on my money. No other potential investment is as safe.

My big take away from events of last fall, is that people who think they are invested in an 100% safe investment like government bonds, an insurance annuity, insured muni bonds, and even CDs are kidding themselves.

If things had happened differently, Citi, AIG, and/or BofA for instance had failed, it is quite possible that the one or more of these safe investments would have lost money. For instance, either Citi or BofA failure would have completely wiped out the FDIC fund, Even something as simple as having former SEC commissioner Cox run the FDIC instead of the highly regarded Sheila Barr may have screwed CD investors.

Nor do I think that investors in US government bonds are completely out of the woods. Historically, many governments have defaulted on their debts either through outright default or via hyperinflation. It isn't just unstable countries like Russia, or those in Latin America, just ask the holders of Iceland bonds.

Now I am not trying to scare people, and it is silly for me to point the comparatively small risk in owning CDs and government bonds, while ignoring that 75-80% of my assets are in the stock market, which as I learned the hard way can go down very far very fast.

I am simply pointing out that we need to stop thinking as investments in binary fashion e.g. CDs are safe, corporate bonds and stocks are risky.
All investments are risky, the amount of risk and type of risk just varies.

3. Owning a house free and clear is risky.
A common and understandable justification for paying off the mortgage is that no matter what happens the bank can't take the house away. True enough, but the flip side is that you take 100% of the risk if the house value declines.

One of the biggest mistake bankers made in the last decade was not properly valuing the implied put that is goes with a mortgage. In simple terms, the ability for a borrower to mail back the keys if the house value falls and the mortgage goes underwater. This is an especially valuable for the folks in this board who generally have liquid assets much greater than the value of the mortgage.

For the average joe, who struggles to come up with the down for the mortgage, the banks have a pretty powerful leverage. If you default on the mortgage we are going to ruin your credit and it will be a decade before you can buy another home. For myself and many members of the forum, if my credit score went from excellent to horrible it would have little impact on my life. I simply have no need to borrow money.

Now for those of you who are saying, "I don't care that much about my home value, I have no intention or moving " or who are saying "I'd never default on my loan". I am in the same position, but stuff happens.

Imagine two retired couples from the cold Northeast or Midwest with two million and modest pension, who a few years ago moved to a warm spot like Florida, Phoenix, or Las Vegas. Both bought a 500K house, one took an 80% mortgage the other paid cash. Now both are unhappy about their timing, and the guy with mortgage sometimes wonders how much he is underwater. Suddenly a family emergency happens and there is very good reason to move back home. They both find out much to their dismay that their 500K house is now worth 250K. It seems to me that retiree with the mortgage is in much better situation. While he feels bad about mailing back the keys family comes first. The other couple has to deal with both the family emergency and trying to sell or rent their house in horrible market.

It seems to me that an important factor in decided to pay off/keep mortgage is the amount of equity. If your mortgage is relative small less than 1/2 the value of the house, than paying it off makes much more sense than if you have a small amout of equity say <20%.
 
I'm also working on eliminating all debt. Only $4500 on car and $4K on student loan left, not counting my mortgage. Now I gotta avoid buying a new car!
 
No debt means I have no required debt repayment. If I lose my income (job) at the same time that the market tanks (not unlikely as economic activity is highly correlated) then I have more options how to respond. I am not forced to liquidate whatever I have at a loss to cover that required payment.

If no bad scenario plays out, then I likely end up with slightly less money. If a bad scenario plays out, then I likely avoid a large loss. You can choose slightly better security or slightly better maximum outcome.
 
I'm with you quietman, but another view is that having the cash invested is more liquid than having it in your house, and therefore more readily available in such an emergency.
 
Yes, and if I had a paid off house and NO money, then I might wish I had some investments and a bit of mortgage. In fact, when I did have that I BORROWED some money, just so I could avoid that problem. Once I have enough otherwise saved up, I got rid of the debt. The simplification works for me. I like the low tax brackets. I like not having to worry about keeping up the debt service. It may not work for everyone. The calculations invariably favor keeping low rate mortgages, so everyone can make their own choice.
 
It may not work for everyone. The calculations invariably favor keeping low rate mortgages, so everyone can make their own choice.

This is one of those questions where there is no clear right or wrong answers.
In many (I'd even venture to say most cases for couples) people who have a relative small mortgage 200K or so and minimal other deductions (for example you life in a state with no income tax, and/or low property) you'd be better off paying off the mortgage and taking the standard deduction than itemizing.

Let's say they pay 3,000 in state and property tax, 1,000 in charitable deductions and 10,000 in mortgage interest. Their itemized deductions are 14,000 which only slightly higher than the standard deduction of $11,400. Paying off the mortgage would allow them to utilize an additional $7,400 in standard deduction. They'd need some very terrific and tax efficient (e.g. dividend or capital gains) investments to overcome the standard deduction hurdle.

Everyone's situation is unique. It depends on your own tax situation, the size and interest rate of your mortgage, and honest appraisal of what the alternative investment is likely to earn (or better yet a range of returns).
It would seem to me that for such an important to decision it is worth the time to fire up Turbotax or talk to your CPA, and see what MAKES THE MOST FINANCIAL SENSE.

After having done the calculation you have knowledge. You are then in a much better to position, to say even though it is likely to cost me $X to pay off the mortgage, my piece of mind being debt free is worth more than that. Another person may make the same calculations and find that paying off the mortgage will actually save them money. They may conclude the opposite "I think interest rates will go up to 15%, so I want to have the flexibility of having liquid assets and that is worth more than $X in tax saving."

I suppose if you are the type that says I don't care if X=$10,000 year, I want to be Debt Free, you can skip the calculations and I'd suggest you see Dave Ramsey for a job.:whistle:
 
Back
Top Bottom