Emergency savings dangerously thin even for upper-income earners according to CNN

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winemaker My friend owns a multi-manufacturer car dealership in town. He can only rely on retired gentlemen to run courtesy vans, cars, pick-ups, or be lot attendants. Everyone under 35 can't pass a drug/alcohol test or has a criminal record.

I can see where a criminal record for car theft or drunk driving might be a no go for a van driver, but maybe some of those criminal record people for unrelated offenses could sure use a second chance. It makes me sad to hear that criminal records might mean life time unemployment for those who could use a job the most.

The U.S. has 5% of the world population yet 25% of the world's prison population.

[Walt34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyBoy5 A couple years ago, millions of dollars worth of crops died in Georgia after the state cracked down on immigrant (illegal) labor. They couldn't hire anyone and when the state tried to employ prisoners they wouldn't do it either as it was 'too difficult'.

I have to agree with naggz on the pool of labor. While I've never picked crops for a living, a $200/hour labor rate would get my attention enough to consider it. But I wouldn't even think about it at minimum wage or anywhere close to it.

Somewhere in between is enough to interest enough people to get the crops harvested. Now, whether those crops can then be sold at a marketable price is a different issue. But those crops didn't die because the farmer couldn't find anyone to harvest them. They died because the farmer couldn't find anyone to harvest them at a rate he was willing to pay. And that is an entirely different thing.

[G8tr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 People don't live in those countries? What the heck are you talking about? -ERD50

People do, just not the ones that are relevant for comparison's sake. It's like saying that a banana in the US costs 20 cents, but the same banana in Central America costs 2 cents. One could say that the US banana is expensive, but that depends on where the buyer lives. Same with the middle class. Compensation may be much lower in Central America, but the US middle class doesn't live there, so the former isn't a relevant point of comparison. Perhaps a more relevant (and reasonable) comparison would be high COL areas in the US versus low COL areas. Compensation is higher in the former, but it's all proportional. The best solution is to find a job that gets paid high COL compensation, yet allows one to live in a low COL area.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by G8tr People do, just not the ones that are relevant for comparison's sake. It's like saying that a banana in the US costs 20 cents, but the same banana in Central America costs 2 cents. One could say that the US banana is expensive, but that depends on where the buyer lives. Same with the middle class. Compensation may be much lower in Central America, but the US middle class doesn't live there, so the former isn't a relevant point of comparison. Perhaps a more relevant (and reasonable) comparison would be high COL areas in the US versus low COL areas. Compensation is higher in the former, but it's all proportional. The best solution is to find a job that gets paid high COL compensation, yet allows one to live in a low COL area. Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

It depends on what the reason is for the comparison. I think this thread drifted into how entitled some people have become. I think it does make sense to compare our standard of living to people worldwide, for a reference.

-ERD50

[G8tr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort I can see where a criminal record for car theft or drunk driving might be a no go for a van driver, but maybe some of those criminal record people for unrelated offenses could sure use a second chance. It makes me sad to hear that criminal records might mean life time unemployment for those who could use a job the most. The U.S. has 5% of the world population yet 25% of the world's prison population.

It has more to do with insurance than anything else. Insuring a business that hires ex-cons is higher, despite the fact that some are looking for a fresh start after doing something profoundly stupid. Yet that too is a factor in hiring (poor judgment and/or impulse control), especially where customers are involved. Now, if an ex-con can turn a wrench, many businesses will consider employment.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

[meierlde]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt34 There is hope in some places. Here in WV Blue Ridge Community and Technical College offers classes in things like welding, CNC maintenance/repair, electrician, truck driving, chef, plumbing, and a lot of others, all trades that will be in demand for the foreseeable future and that pay enough to support oneself and/or bootstrap oneself to what one really wants to do. I do remember taking a financial basics class in HS, I forget what they called it - how to figure interest, the difference between a savings and checking account, stocks and bonds, and of course how to write a check and balance a checkbook. It was one of the two most practical classes I took in HS. The other was typing.

I say a simple solution is to give AA degrees to folks who get trade certifications. (Some are doing it). Given for example the plumbing has undergone a revolution as plastic pipe and home run pipeing (i.e. one manifold feeds pipes to each room that has plumbing, versus the old tree model) etc, have changed one needs the ability to re-educate oneself even in the trades (Let alone consider a person who learned auto mechanics in the 1970s versus auto mechanics today). So the ancilllary course should relate to helping folks learn how to teach themselves.

[Walt34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by G8tr It has more to do with insurance than anything else. No surfing a business that hires ex-cons is higher, despite the fact that some are looking for a fresh start after doing something profoundly stupid. Yet that too is a factor in hiring (poor judgment and/or impulse control), especially where customers are involved

That's about it. A business owner would be a fool now to hire people with criminal records because of the liability. One such where we used to live was a small moving company that was proud of helping ex-cons get a fresh start, until one of them raped a customer. The resulting judgment cost him his business and then some.

How many here would bet their ability to earn a living and their net worth on the likelihood of an ex-con getting their act together?

[someguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by naggz I bet if your friend raised his wages, he could find a lot of qualified workers. The labour market is just another market, with buyers and sellers of labour. If reliable, skilled people keep leaving, that usually means that there other companies / careers that are paying better or providing a better work environment, or other careers that people are more interested in.

Those people might not be going to other companies that offer better whatever. They might be: exiting the labor force altogether, retiring early at a lower lifestyle than desired/anticipated, depending on family, depending on social safety nets, or leaving the country for a lower cost of living, just to name a few.

If we continue with the scarce plumber model, perhaps the plumber has a significant other who works as well. The plumber decides it's not worth $50K/year to him to work, so he stops. But he and his SO don't want to give up smartphones at $80/mo each, or CATV with a couple sports packages and premium channels at $110/mo. And darn it, he needs/deserves dinners at decent restaurants and a nice car that isn't too old to get to them. And the 2200 ft2 house in a solid neighborhood? No way they're giving that up.

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt34 That's about it. A business owner would be a fool now to hire people with criminal records because of the liability. One such where we used to live was a small moving company that was proud of helping ex-cons get a fresh start, until one of them raped a customer. The resulting judgment cost him his business and then some. How many here would bet their ability to earn a living and their net worth on the likelihood of an ex-con getting their act together?

A large percent of our population have criminal records / prison records - I've read 65 million or one in four adults. It is a shame to make that a life sentence of unemployment for any job, no matter what the crime, no matter how long ago, especially those actively looking for work.

I know in at least some other countries they have the concept of "spent" convictions where at least some crimes roll off a person's record after a time.

I don't think 65 million people are going to go on to rape customers.

[G8tr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort A large percent of our population have criminal records / prison records - I've read 65 million or one in four adults. It is a shame to make that a life sentence of unemployment for any job, no matter what the crime, no matter how long ago, especially those actively looking for work. I know in at least some other countries they have the concept of "spent" convictions where at least some crimes roll off a person's record after a time. I don't think 65 million people are going to go on to rape customers.

Expungement is an option after a period of years, but doing it correctly may require the services of an attorney.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

[cooch96]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort It is a shame to make that a life sentence of unemployment for any job, no matter what the crime, no matter how long ago, especially those actively looking for work.

So a child molester who got out after say four years should be given a job in daycare? C'mon, gimme a break.

You almost had a point but i think the way you worded it is a shame.

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooch96 So a child molester who got out after say four years should be given a job in daycare? C'mon, gimme a break. You almost had a point but i think the way you worded it is a shame.

Please do not attribute things I did not write to me. I did not say anything about child molesters or day care. The issue is that no matter how minor a crime or unrelated to the job in question, or even if it happened decades ago, a criminal record can keep people from finding work:

65 Million Americans With Criminal Records Face Unprecedented Barriers to Employment

"These background checks are supposed to promote safety in the workplace, but many employers have gone way overboard, refusing to even consider highly qualified applicants just because of an old arrest or conviction. They're not even bothering to ask what the arrest or conviction was for, how far in the past it was, whether it's in any way related to the job, or what the person has done with his or her life since," said Owens"

[G8tr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort Please do not attribute things I did not write to me. I did not say anything about child molesters or day care. The issue is that no matter how minor a crime or unrelated to the job in question, or even if it happened decades ago, a criminal record can keep people from finding work: 65 Million Americans With Criminal Records Face Unprecedented Barriers to Employment "These background checks are supposed to promote safety in the workplace, but many employers have gone way overboard, refusing to even consider highly qualified applicants just because of an old arrest or conviction. They're not even bothering to ask what the arrest or conviction was for, how far in the past it was, whether it's in any way related to the job, or what the person has done with his or her life since," said Owens"

Well, those with criminal records could band together and push state legislatures and Congress to pass laws that would put limits on such employer discretion. Somehow I don't think they will. What we are seeing is the de-criminalization of certain low level drug possession offenses, public intoxication, and the like. These are supposed to alleviate the burdens on our judicial system and prison population, as well as allow people to act stupidly within reason.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

[aja8888]

Quote:

Originally Posted by G8tr .................. What we are seeing is the de-criminalization of certain low level drug possession offenses, public intoxication, and the like. These are supposed to alleviate the burdens on our judicial system and prison population, as well as allow people to act stupidly within reason. Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

Around here we are seeing those drug possession offenses and similar criminal acts turn into felonies and people given prison time at an alarming rate. Our prisions are full and we have lots of them.

It's becoming the "criminal attorney and court system full employment act" with ridiculously high attorney fees, court costs, penalties, and paying for worthless rehab classes. Not that I condone breaking the law, but a 1st time DUI around here is a minimum $10,000 event for the culprit.

And how do you propose those with criminal records ".. band together and push state legislatures and Congress to pass laws that would put limits on such employer discretion."?

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aja8888 Around here we are seeing those drug possession offenses and similar criminal acts turn into felonies and people given prison time at an alarming rate. Our prisions are full and we have lots of them. It's becoming the "criminal attorney and court system full employment act" with ridiculously high attorney fees, court costs, penalties, and paying for worthless rehab classes. Not that I condone breaking the law, but a 1st time DUI around here is a minimum $10,000 event for the culprit. And how do you propose those with criminal records ".. band together and push state legislatures and Congress to pass laws that would put limits on such employer discretion."?

+1. Many of them aren't even allowed to vote, let alone have the skills, resources or political contribution backers to change the laws:

https://www.aclu.org/maps/map-state-...chisement-laws

[yakers]

Quote:

Originally Posted by naggz You make it sound like the farm "owner" was "entitled' to have his crops harvested, yet complain that "workers" feel "entitled" to their own life and how they choose to spend their time, including not wanting to work very hard, in uncomfortable positions, in hot environments, for likely very little pay and benefits. As my post above states, the labour market is just a market. People perceived that the farming work was not worth the pay.

LOL, reminds me of when I was living in the UK/London long, long ago,, you could not find tradesman at reasonable wages. There were jokes and anecdotes about plumbers driving up in their Porches and keeping 'bankers hours' Well, if supply & demand works maybe they should get paid more than the bankers complaining about tradesman wages & availability. AFAIK the 'problem; with the undersupply of these trades was at least partially solved in the UK and France by the import of the 'Polish Plumber". There are skilled trades and hard manual jobs, let them pay more; much, much more if necessary and the market will adjust supply to demand.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooch96 Quote: Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort View Post It is a shame to make that a life sentence of unemployment for any job, no matter what the crime, no matter how long ago, especially those actively looking for work. So a child molester who got out after say four years should be given a job in daycare? C'mon, gimme a break. You almost had a point but i think the way you worded it is a shame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort Please do not attribute things I did not write to me. I did not say anything about child molesters or day care. ...

Wouldn't "for any job, no matter what the crime" include child molesters and day care jobs?

If you wish to clarify/adjust your statement, that's fine, but why jump on cooch96 and accuse him of putting words in your mouth?

-ERD50

[Amethyst]

There is an enormous College of Technology not far from where we live. It started out as a Technical Institute, mostly car and HVAC repair, and just kept expanding. They even have a Culinary Institute!

You cannot outsource plumbing! At least, I don't see how it would be possible

My mother taught me about checkbooks, my father made stern remarks on the importance of Credit Ratings, and I figured out the rest...sloooowly. Honestly, even if we'd been taught anything in high school, which we weren't, it probably wouldn't have sunk in beyond test-taking day. You have to actually have some money before you appreciate how to take care of it.


Amethyst

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt34 There is hope in some places. Here in WV Blue Ridge Community and Technical College offers classes in things like welding, CNC maintenance/repair, electrician, truck driving, chef, plumbing, and a lot of others, all trades that will be in demand for the foreseeable future and that pay enough to support oneself and/or bootstrap oneself to what one really wants to do. .

[Willers]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay_Gatsby The problem is not only the availability of so-called "trades" skill training, but rather the perception of being in the trades. Until about 30 years or so ago, the "trades" were seen as honorable work - indeed, millions of WWII veterans went into them and joined the unions. These days, despite the clear need for tradesmen (I've seen hundreds of openings with solid pay), parents and their teenage kids are somehow convinced that everyone has to go to college. Those kids who can't afford college often default into very low paying jobs (e.g., pizza delivery, retail sales, waitress/waiter, etc...) instead of learning a trade. They languish for years in such low paying jobs, when they could be making $40k+ annually after a year or two in the trades. While the trades have traditionally been bastions of men, there are growing opportunities for women for less physical roles (but which are still essential).

+1 Our company is in desperate need of welders and machinists. They pay solid, middle-class, salaries. We can't find them because HS students in our area are told that college is the only path to success.

[growing_older]

In my career, there have been several instances of employees doing criminal acts against other employees in the workplace. These ranged from thefts to very serious violent offenses. It seems like a difficult choice between giving people with criminal records opportunity to rehabilitate themselves and exposing other employees to possible criminal activity. In the examples I am aware of there were claims made against the companies involved, but I can image they would have been much more significant if a victim knew that the company knowing employed someone with a criminal record of similar offenses.