FIREside-- Bitter Criticism by friends / family & dealing with it?

[Rambler]

My folks are pretty happy I'm well on the road and near to FIRE. In fact they hope to see it because they know and can see what my w*rk does to me sometimes. And Dad is painfully aware that he wished he could have retired earlier so he could have visited more with his kids who are now all over the states and in my case the world.

I have not told my brother nor one of my sisters that I intend to FIRE. The reason is that they don't think it is even fair that I have what I have worked for and earned. My other sister knows my intention to FIRE, but because they do not save much and because they see that we travel back to the states 4 times a year, and because we have a large/relatively expensive home, they think we are spending everything we earn and that there is no way I can FIRE.

They don't think there is any way to save the kind of money necessary to retire before 60 or 70, because no one they know has been able to do it.

I will say that you've got to have a lot of intestinal fortitude to retire in your 40s with a kitty set aside for retirement of only $500k. I'm sure some people could do it...it helps if you have a pension (kinda young for that), but I know that I could not do it unless I had a home with no mortgage and healthcare paid by some other entity than myself...and then only if I was single. I do wish you the best of luck. Keep us posted on how it goes.

R

 

[Westernskies]

Move.

 

[FIREd]

Trib, when I first read about the harsh criticism you are facing from family members, it reminded me of some comments my parents made when I first suggested that I was contemplating early retirement. I, unlike many people who have answered so far, also care about what my parents think and even if I disagree with them, I would never dream of telling them to take a hike.

But now that you've said you grew up in Europe, it all makes sense because I grew up on the old continent too.

FIRE is just not a very popular concept over there and I don't expect them to understand it, especially if you are in your thirties and forties when you retire. Retiring in your mid-50's is probably OK since many public servants do. But any sooner and that's a huge red flag.

Someone who retires before the age of 55-60 might as well be called "unemployed" as far as my parents are concerned.

"Early Retirees" probably are people who are too lazy to work. They undoubtedly survive on government handouts. They is nothing glamorous about early retirement at all. It says nothing about your hard work and successes that have allowed you to ER, but it says everything about your laziness, selfishness, and irrelevance. That's how my parents see ER.

 

[LOL!]

FIRE may not be a very popular concept, but being on the dole is. I've sat next to many folks on UK commuter trains who told me they have had no job for years and are just living on the dole. They were definitely proud of that as well.

 

[FIREd]

FIRE may not be a very popular concept, but being on the dole is. I've sat next to many folks on UK commuter trains who told me they have had no job for years and are just living on the dole. They were definitely proud of that as well.

And they are the people who give a bad name to ER in Europe IMO... How can you tell whether that 40 year old guy who is not working is living on his savings or on the dole? Your can't. And since there are a lot more people living on the dole than living on their savings, it's quite easy to lump everyone in the "loser" category.

 

[trib1]

Thanks Rambler.
$500k or thereabouts is the bare minimum and it does make some assumptions, such as Ireland, or UK and Europe, continuing free healthcare. It also means topping up with some private coverage for certain things (to avoid long waiting lists).

I had wanted $1M, but cyclical downturns do sting! I know its risky, but my gut tells me do it now before I get too set in my ways, maybe get sick, or cannot travel, for some reason. What's your own magic number for ER?

 

[trib1]

Thanks for the empathy and kind words FIREdreamer. Its nice to have someone on the same page as oneself.

You've solved the cultural difference methinks. In the US there's no social system to speak of (well, unless you're a bank these days)! So there's no free hand out, no safety net. So if someone says they're ER, you figure they've done good, they must have because there's simply no alternative! (legal alternative)

 

[yakers]

Now for a completely different approach.
If you want to 'offer" an acceptable reason for retirement try medical concerns. My Dad had a stroke @60 & another @62, retired, had a couple good years & died @70.
I had one night @57 in the cardiac ward. It turned out to be not too serious (low level a-fib). Anyway it seemed clear to me at the time that I had 'enough' and it was time to retire & enjoy life. When I deal with family & friends I just mention to them that I am concerned after 'that night in the cardiac ward' and they are all sympathetic and wishing I travel more & get on with life.
I expect I will actually outlive many of them.

 

[trib1]

Many of my Irish pals have been signing on (collecting dole) for years. They feel a certain sense of entitlement, because they're 'creative'! Lots of our well known writers, musicians and actors have done the same, and then gone and blown it in a single sitting on a bar stool!

That said Ireland could have a quarter of its citizens on the dole soon, at least that's one forcast. That's a lot of early retirees!

 

[trib1]

To yakers :-
I can really relate to your post. Likewise thats a Big motivator for me, one I didn't mention before.

My dad had his 1st major heart attack at 50. His near death misses continued for the next 10-15 years at a severely reduced quality of life. He didn't make it to 70!

Always strikes me that life can be very cruel sometimes. You work honestly your whole life, only to be rewarded by not getting to enjoy your retirement.

Moreover my brother was killed in his twenties. $500k isn't much, but there ain't no guarantees to anything!

On a lighter note, I always liked that line from Raising Arizona: To Nicholas Cage's character: 'what ya gotta go and get job for?. . You're young. . .you got your health!'

 

[Rambler]

Thanks Rambler.
$500k or thereabouts is the bare minimum and it does make some assumptions, such as Ireland, or UK and Europe, continuing free healthcare. It also means topping up with some private coverage for certain things (to avoid long waiting lists).

I had wanted $1M, but cyclical downturns do sting! I know its risky, but my gut tells me do it now before I get too set in my ways, maybe get sick, or cannot travel, for some reason. What's your own magic number for ER?

Some years ago I thought I could do it on a million. Unfortunately life has a way of expanding your needs and wants. When we left the states over 10 years ago for a 1-2 year assignment, I figured we could save some money and if it was extended to 3-4 years, maybe come back with that million and retire, or work a little longer and retire a bit later.

Since then, with a few extensions, promotions and nice bonuses thrown in, we bought some property, built the McMansion (no mortgage on it but high property tax), saved some more, got one kid in college and are now finishing HS on our youngest. In that time, the perception of what we need has changed, by about 4-5x. By my calculations, we'll be there in about 3-4 years. Megacorp has asked me to stay until the end of 2012, and with kids in college, a poor economy, and a rocky market, DW and I decided that we'd try to stick it out. Not everyone needs that much, and as I have said in other posts, we are already entry-level FI. I think we could make it on what we have. But, I am a belt and suspenders kinda guy, so I'm adding that "just in case" cushion.

Could I pull the plug on $1mill? I don't think I could anymore. If I sold the McMansion and kept the smaller home, I probably could do it on $1.5 mil., but we are beyond that and selling the big house would put another mill in the kitty (if it could be sold). But as I said, our tastes and spending patterns have changed, and I have seen in others that sometimes those spending patterns can be hard to change/reduce. I don't want to sell the McMansion, and I want to travel a bit and do some things that are impossible to do while I am working overseas. So I keep plugging away at it...according to my calculation, only 1,321 days to go (if megacorp does not tire of me first).

I do understand the health concerns though. My dad is fine as of right now, but had a bout with cancer 14 years ago. My uncle passed away a few weeks ago. He was forced to retire when he was about 57 or 58, due to a combination of problems that left him unable to drive at all or even walk without a cane. He had to give up his beloved woodshop. Then he had a stroke. Lost the ability to talk...words came out, but not the ones he was thinking. Essentially lost the ability to communicate. He lasted about 15 years in this condition. When he died, I seriously considered pulling the plug, but I let myself settle down emotionally, then remembered 2 kids in college and a wife to support, and decided to keep plugging for now.

R

 

[deserat]

trib1 - ahh, the Irish - a huge expectation of loyalty as well, too. And, I find the Irish, while very funny, can have the most cutting criticism, cuts to the heart, especially with those closest to them. I think they attribute that behavior as one of caring, however, their style can really hurt.

So, as the others have said, water off a duck's back and move forward. As for your money amount, if you've done the math and the gut check is good, then go for it. The decisions you make now aren't necessarily cast in stone - who knows, you may end up working again, but much later in life.

Good luck!

 

[donheff]

Family and friends are generally viewed as important sources of support. In your case, they are the exact opposite. Maybe you should move - it is not like you would be losing your support group.

 

[DAYDREAMER]

Wow, this thread hits close to home. DW and I took a summer off 6 years ago. I quit my job (Contract Engineer) and my wife took a leave of absence from hers. The family was not supportive at all, and in fact, were making comments like "how dare you take the summer off. You can't afford that!" There is a lot of self judjment that goes on, when somebody sees somebody else capable not needing a job. Society measures success by what everybody else is doing, and when somebody is able to get by without a job, that is kind of a personal slam on self that needs a job. There were absolutely no well wishers for us, in fact, there were strong vibes for us to fail.

Next time we take a sabatical, we will not mention a word!!!!!! I'm sure ER creates strong jealousies, and makes others really look in the Mirror.

 

[dex]

Sounds like you need a new set of family.

Could be good advise if the family is generally negative and not loving.

I read once that the most abusive organization we can be a member of is a family.

So, forgive them and get away from them.

 

[ladelfina]

I think it challenges a whole world view, not just personal inadequacies. My sis and I both started out with small nest eggs courtesy of our late father. Over the course of years, after one vagary and another, various investments and our own job savings we both bought houses. She got a mortgage; I paid cash. We have political disagreements (she is right-wing Republican and I am a sort of Democratic libertarian) wherein she defends the banksters and the financial system. I think she defends it because she is attached to it; she has to write that $3k check every month, come rain or come shine. I don't know how she does it! I'd be cranky, too, if that were me.

 

[ziggy29]

she has to write that $3k check every month, come rain or come shine.

Ouch. That's a real FIRE-buster.

Have I mentioned lately that I love my small, cheap and paid off house?

 

[haha]

trib1 - ahh, the Irish - a huge expectation of loyalty as well, too. And, I find the Irish, while very funny, can have the most cutting criticism, cuts to the heart, especially with those closest to them. I think they attribute that behavior as one of caring, however, their style can really hurt.
Good luck!

You can say that again. Anyone with an irish side to their family knows that they are a huge source of strength, and a big PITA too. All I can say is thank God that US catholics tend to marry into other RC ethnic groups. If you are in the midwest, irish marry Germans. In Chicago and Cleveland, Poles. In New England there are those spicy Italians available, not to mention Puerto Ricans and other Latinos.

A double dose of the Irish might have been fatal to me.

I know more about saints, booze, "female trouble" and tragic wasted lives than even Eugene O'neill did. Jesus, Mary and Joseph!

Ha

 

[noworkethic]

Saw a BBC documentary once that argued that it was protestants that crafted the notion: that to be a 'worthy' member of society, one had subject themselves to lifelong graft! Before that, the world was largely more laid back (Jamican) in its work ethic, (work to live, versus the live to work).

Since I joined this forum I have been meaning to get around to explaining my screen name. It seems that you have saved me the trouble, and probably been more simple and eloquent about it than I would have been. I do believe that we would be buddies if we knew each other.

 

[freebird5825]

Family and friends are generally viewed as important sources of support. In your case, they are the exact opposite. Maybe you should move - it is not like you would be losing your support group.

Same here.
I think of myself as a voluntary orphan. My life is much improved since I made the "leave it all behind" decision. It was not easy, but it was the right decision. In my case, envy of my success and being the youngest was the 3 headed monster and the reason for chronic naysaying.
However, my mom never said such terrible things to me. You can't change her, so the best option might be to increase your distance.
If the family is not supportive, go out on your own, and send periodic postcards and letters from a PO Box address so they know you are alive. Other than that, live your life to the fullest minus the anchors dragging at you.
Good luck!

 

[trib1]

Thanks deserat. Its not cast in stone. I may end up working again-- absolutely, and in that sense ER/PT is a lot like entrepreneurship! Hell, people have lost their entire businesses over less in their control.

 

[trib1]

To anyone I haven't thanked personally yet, Thanks for taking the time with your comments!

 

[Kabekew]

Trib1, at your age with 40 years to make that nest egg support yourself, and presuming you invest it in a well-allocated portfolio to overcome inflation, you're talking a $15K-$20K annual withdrawal rate. Can you pay your mortgage or rent with that, let alone everything else? (Or do you own your home free and clear?)

Maybe that's what your relatives are worried about, that you'll run out of money and they'll need to "bail" you out someday. If your numbers add up, I'd emphasize to them you've done your budgeting and calculations and there's no need for them to worry. Also leave open the chance you'd be ready to return to work if needed, or that you plan to spend much of your time researching new business ideas and plan to grab a good opportunity as soon as you find it.

Or maybe formally announce your retirement and even have a retirement party, as opposed to everyone just sort of finding out you're not working anymore. At your age I think there can be a fine line between proud early retiree and lazy bum, depending how you portray yourself.

 

[trib1]

Its definitely less about the financials. The criticisms are more to do with, perception, and expectation.

I don't think they're worried about me being a burden, in fact in that department, ironically, they might actually be very helpful. Not that I ever would impose. Maybe because I'm too proud, so I'd definitely return to work first.

 

[free4now]

When I first FIREd, my parents protested a bit, but once I was a year or two into it they got much more supportive. My retiring into a more frugal lifestyle than when I was working suddenly impacted my parents: it became clear that I wasn't going to financially support their living above their means in retirement, whereas when I was working and accumulating a pot of money, I think they might have had their eyes on it as their retirement fun money.

A few years into my retirement, things are much better. I no longer worry about my parents spending, and I no longer project the vibe of worrying about them. I no longer feel any conflict about retiring or saving my parents from their overspending. The decision has been made; I'm retiring rather than saving them from their overspending, and everyone now knows it. My parents seem to feel free to again overspend in their usual ways, and who knows perhaps they have some financial silver bullet that I don't know about that is going to make it okay. At any rate, it's no longer anything I worry about.

Because I'm not giving my parents the "I don't think your finances are going to work out" vibe, they have reciprocated and are now being supportive of my financial decisions.