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Old 06-05-2017, 03:57 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by dunkelblau View Post
I think the numbers from the 2013 Fed Survey of Consumer Finances chartbook
https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/scfindex.htm
suggest a significantly lower median retiree income. The table on Page #22 shows median pretax family income as 56.8k for 'employee', 70.8k for 'self-employed', 29.9k for 'retired' and 25.4k for 'other/not working'. No age or family size restriction as far as I can tell. The difference probably involves exactly what is and isn't included, I wonder what that may be.
Intriguing. But, when I followed your link, I got the SCF homepage. It seems that you are referencing a particular report. Can you help me out?
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:19 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Independent View Post
Intriguing. But, when I followed your link, I got the SCF homepage. It seems that you are referencing a particular report. Can you help me out?
Sorry, it's the "SCF Chartbook" File Type PDF -- the bottom link in that first table (on my system it's >7MB not 3.6MB). The big files I presume must be source data in Excel/SAS/STATA or flat ASCII text. I just noticed the Codebook link in the documentation table, and it appears that the raw data has way more detail than what we see in these summaries, so I don't think this can be an easy dig.
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Old 06-06-2017, 03:40 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by dunkelblau View Post
Sorry, it's the "SCF Chartbook" File Type PDF -- the bottom link in that first table (on my system it's >7MB not 3.6MB). The big files I presume must be source data in Excel/SAS/STATA or flat ASCII text. I just noticed the Codebook link in the documentation table, and it appears that the raw data has way more detail than what we see in these summaries, so I don't think this can be an easy dig.
Thanks. I've got no ideas. The SCF charts are for "families with holdings", so if anything they should be higher than CPS. And, the SCF includes realized capital gains, the CPS doesn't.

I notice the that gap between mean and median is greater than the CPS. That would be consistent with picking up capital gains, but the gap is large.

So, I got nothin.
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Old 06-06-2017, 05:05 PM   #24
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Thanks, I stumbled across a source that explains some of the nuances in measuring retirement income here--
Income of Today’s Older Adults | Pension Rights Center
They use three kinds of demographic units: individuals with median at 23K, households at 38.5K, and 'aged units' at 30K. This last item is something I hadn't heard of and an explanation is provided in a link. I wonder whether SCF defined family income along the lines of 'aged units'?
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Old 06-06-2017, 05:22 PM   #25
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I like being informed, so I appreciate the OP.
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Old 06-06-2017, 07:58 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by dunkelblau View Post
Thanks, I stumbled across a source that explains some of the nuances in measuring retirement income here--
Income of Today’s Older Adults | Pension Rights Center
They use three kinds of demographic units: individuals with median at 23K, households at 38.5K, and 'aged units' at 30K. This last item is something I hadn't heard of and an explanation is provided in a link. I wonder whether SCF defined family income along the lines of 'aged units'?
Okay.

The $38.5k matches my number for households from the 2015 Current Population Survey.

The $23k is about a thousand different from what I get if I use the CPS Table Creator and specify "persons", though I can match the number exactly using the CPS prepared reports and downloading the 65+ table here: https://www.census.gov/data/tables/t...c/pinc-08.html

The "units" number comes from a SSA report, and it uses CPS data as its source. https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/stat...014/about.html
They may be treating each married couple and each single person as one "unit", then finding the median of them. I could see how that would pull the median down if they avoided the incomes of other persons in the household.

The Fed's Survey of Consumer Finances uses their own survey, but may use the same approach.

I don't like blending single people and married couples into one number, but that's often what I see. Getting away from that was one of the reasons I did the OP.
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:01 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
I like being informed, so I appreciate the OP.
+1

Good post, interesting thread.
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Old 06-07-2017, 08:14 AM   #28
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Thanks for posting - interesting.

For another data point, I suggest checking mean/median family income in your state compared to your income.
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Old 06-26-2017, 08:50 AM   #29
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Just because I can ...

I looked at sources of income, by income decile, for my married couples, in two person households, over age 65, with no earned income:

Social Security 8,100 19,900 24,100 26,700 28,600 29,500 31,200 30,300 32,900 32,100
Pensions 300 400 1,500 2,500 5,300 9,200 15,800 24,500 35,800 58,000
Qualified Withdrawals 100 100 200 600 1,100 2,100 2,700 3,100 4,700 14,300
Non-Qual Inv Income 300 400 400 1,100 1,600 2,200 2,800 5,000 10,300 34,700
Other 1,500 500 300 400 700 1,400 1,400 3,500 4,500 12,000
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total 10,200 21,300 26,500 31,400 37,300 44,400 53,900 66,500 88,200 151,100

The numbers are mean dollars within deciles.

The striking thing to me is the importance of Social Security to everyone except the top couple deciles. It's interesting that the non-qual investment income in the top decile exceeds the total in that line for all the other nine deciles combined. And, of course, pensions are still very important for current retirees.

And, because I can, here's a some more detail:

Social Security 8,100 19,900 24,100 26,700 28,600 29,500 31,200 30,300 32,900 32,100
Private Pensions 200 200 600 1,300 3,300 4,900 8,500 12,300 15,700 23,100
State and Local Pensions - 100 200 200 900 2,000 3,600 6,700 12,400 19,700
Federal Pensions - 100 200 500 500 1,300 1,300 2,200 3,800 10,700
Veterans Benefits & Military Pens 100 - 500 500 600 1,100 2,300 3,300 4,000 4,400
Regular Qualified Withdrawals 100 - 100 400 800 1,400 1,700 1,900 3,400 11,800
Other Qualified Withdrawals - 100 - 200 300 800 1,000 1,200 1,300 2,500
Interest 200 300 200 500 500 800 1,300 2,000 4,300 11,100
Dividends 100 200 100 300 600 800 1,100 2,200 3,400 12,300
Rental Income - - 100 300 500 500 400 800 2,600 11,300
Annuities 100 - 200 300 300 900 800 1,800 2,800 4,600
Supp Security Income 1,200 300 100 100 200 - 100 - 100 -
Disability & Survivor 100 100 100 - 100 400 400 1,400 900 5,300
Not Coded - - - - - - - 100 600 1,400
Other 100 - 100 - 100 - 200 200 100 700
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total 10,200 21,300 26,500 31,400 37,300 44,400 53,900 66,500 88,200 151,100

(I'd appreciate some advice on a quick way to right-adjust those numbers.)
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:24 AM   #30
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Interesting that interest and dividends are close amounts. Here it's way more dividends than interest. Other people must have much more in banks and CDs.
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Old 06-26-2017, 10:51 AM   #31
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Just added this to an old thread about putting tables into posts:
http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...ml#post1900246

Basically, you put [ right ] and [ /right ] around your numbers.
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:11 AM   #32
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Interesting that interest and dividends are close amounts. Here it's way more dividends than interest. Other people must have much more in banks and CDs.
Sometimes this is caused by thinking of bond and bond fund interest as "dividends."
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:12 PM   #33
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Just added this to an old thread about putting tables into posts:
http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...ml#post1900246

Basically, you put [ right ] and [ /right ] around your numbers.
Thanks for the response. I think that requires tagging each number individually. I was hoping for something that would involve one command for the whole table.

(but, maybe I'm not understanding)
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:31 PM   #34
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Good work, Independent! I am an avid number cruncher and as much as I am *not* representative of the "Jone's", I am always curious as to what story is told by these numbers.
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:32 PM   #35
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Sometimes this is caused by thinking of bond and bond fund interest as "dividends."
This is a possibility. The interest question is:

Item 66b - Did... own any interest
earning accounts, funds, savings bonds,
T-notes, IRAs, CDs, or other investments
which pay interest?

and the dividend question is:

Item 67b - Did ... own any shares of stock
or any mutual fund shares?


It's possible there are instructions that clarify "mutual funds that own bonds", but I don't know where to look for that.
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Old 06-26-2017, 07:41 PM   #36
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Great post. Love the data
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:19 PM   #37
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Thanks for a great post. Almost against my will I find myself comparing to others. Perhaps it's the human condition. YMMV
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