Geriatric financial management & asset allocations

[kcowan]

Took over MILs portfolio 5 years before her death and 2 years after my retirement. It helped me to learn how to DIY a fixed income portfolio (all individual bonds). Also alerted me to the high fees of an independent portfolio manager. I was able to save her $8K in fees right away.

We had DWs name on everything and she also had a POA. We had just initiated the process of adding DWs name on title of the townhouse when she died suddenly (lung cancer at age 93).

[MooreBonds]

I took over management of my grandmother's portfolio about 5 years ago. She was about 90% CDs, 7% bonds, and 3% MLPs (pipelines) at the time of her death. Even though I wasn't the official executor (was #3 in line after my father and brother), I ended up doing all of the work because I knew where everything was, and am far more financially savvy/competent compared to everyone else in my family to the nth degree.

However, it was funny how different people I had to work with at the different firms (one of which was Vanguard) often challenged me on what exactly she had and what the terms and conditions were of her positions (i.e. nearly all of them had the 'estate/death put feature', whereby the heirs could elect to put the security back to the issuer after the holder's death at full par value). It's frustrating when you have to inform the 'experts' what the facts are - and even then have to insist on it after several iterations of "no, you can't do that......oh, yes, I think you can, check the prospectus and documentation.......no, the bank can call it back if they want to, but you can't.....wash, rinse, clean out their ear wax, wash again, and repeat".

Now, I realize that some of them are just phone support...but when one of the people that is assigned to you specifically serves the position to assist in transferring accounts after an account holder has passed on, and they drop the ball repeatedly and mysteriously never follow-up with you when they say they will, or they tell you that "all of the positions will be called next month"....only to find out that it will be several months before that happens...or a variety of other claims and assurances that don't quite live up to expectations, it can really make an emotionally frustrating time even more so.

I can only imagine what executors must go through when either they simply don't know too much about finances/investments in general, or are financially prudent but just unfamiliar with what specific positions someone had who suddenly passed on! My word of advice is to quote Moulder's password and say "trustno1" - verify everything on your own as much as you are able. Just as with managing your own investment portfolio, when it comes to dissolving and transferring a love one's estate accounts, no one on the other end of the phone truly cares anywhere near about getting things done correctly and maximizing your assets as you do.

I'm the primary executor of my parents' trust, and have just a fleeting idea of the number of accounts and where....but when the time comes, I would know where to look for 99.9% of the info (recent tax returns/financial summaries), since they're mostly old fashioned and still receive paper everything. Also, I'm expecting them to open up slightly more about what they have where as they get a little older. If not, I'll have a little chat down the road. At least they know that I'm fully competent enough by how I handled my grandmother's estate, and that they wouldn't suspect me to have ulterior motives for asking.

[rodi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MooreBonds I took over management of my grandmother's portfolio about 5 years ago. She was about 90% CDs, 7% bonds, and 3% MLPs (pipelines) at the time of her death. Even though I wasn't the official executor (was #3 in line after my father and brother), I ended up doing all of the work because I knew where everything was, and am far more financially savvy/competent compared to everyone else in my family to the nth degree. However, it was funny how different people I had to work with at the different firms (one of which was Vanguard) often challenged me on what exactly she had and what the terms and conditions were of her positions (i.e. nearly all of them had the 'estate/death put feature', whereby the heirs could elect to put the security back to the issuer after the holder's death at full par value). It's frustrating when you have to inform the 'experts' what the facts are - and even then have to insist on it after several iterations of "no, you can't do that......oh, yes, I think you can, check the prospectus and documentation.......no, the bank can call it back if they want to, but you can't.....wash, rinse, clean out their ear wax, wash again, and repeat". Now, I realize that some of them are just phone support...but when one of the people that is assigned to you specifically serves the position to assist in transferring accounts after an account holder has passed on, and they drop the ball repeatedly and mysteriously never follow-up with you when they say they will, or they tell you that "all of the positions will be called next month"....only to find out that it will be several months before that happens...or a variety of other claims and assurances that don't quite live up to expectations, it can really make an emotionally frustrating time even more so. I can only imagine what executors must go through when either they simply don't know too much about finances/investments in general, or are financially prudent but just unfamiliar with what specific positions someone had who suddenly passed on! My word of advice is to quote Moulder's password and say "trustno1" - verify everything on your own as much as you are able. Just as with managing your own investment portfolio, when it comes to dissolving and transferring a love one's estate accounts, no one on the other end of the phone truly cares anywhere near about getting things done correctly and maximizing your assets as you do. I'm the primary executor of my parents' trust, and have just a fleeting idea of the number of accounts and where....but when the time comes, I would know where to look for 99.9% of the info (recent tax returns/financial summaries), since they're mostly old fashioned and still receive paper everything. Also, I'm expecting them to open up slightly more about what they have where as they get a little older. If not, I'll have a little chat down the road. At least they know that I'm fully competent enough by how I handled my grandmother's estate, and that they wouldn't suspect me to have ulterior motives for asking.

My dad had some accounts in Vanguard, some in Schwab.

Vanguard is great for the living, but TERRIBLE for the executor.
They lost multiple copies of the certified death certificate.
As mentioned they dropped the ball on actions they said they'd take, multiple times.

It was so awful that both my sister and I transfered the accounts to schwab once we finally had control of the assets.

I should mention - we had no control over the funds/assets in Vanguard from the time he died (10/2007) till March or April of 2008. We could not move any money out of the collapsing/imploding market.

I'm a big fan of Vanguard's low cost funds. I am *not* a fan of their customer service to executors or beneficiaries of IRAs. Frankly, they suck at that.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodi My dad had some accounts in Vanguard, some in Schwab. Vanguard is great for the living, but TERRIBLE for the executor. I'm a big fan of Vanguard's low cost funds. I am *not* a fan of their customer service to executors or beneficiaries of IRAs. Frankly, they suck at that.

Dad had a small account with Vanguard. No idea why, 95% of his assets are with Fidelity and the Vanguard account was just a few shares of their S&P500 index fund.

As soon as I was conservator, I cashed out the Vanguard account and transferred the funds to Fidelity. The fewer bureaucracies to deal with, the better.

[kcowan]

In MILs estate, the bank only screwed up one account. I am still trying to get it straightened out.

[nwsteve]

I was executor on my mom's estate which was largely at Vanguard, all accounts were TOD designated.
While the basic elements of the transfer to the beneficiaries was done correctly, it was not without significant conversation with more than one level of CSR. The account was Flagship but when it became an estate item, the contact point moved to someone in their "Estate" section--the concept of customer service was decidely lacking in this group, not quite indifferent but certaintly not proactive and engaged.
Vanguard obviously does a good job in keeping their fund cost low, howecer, it often seems to be at the price of mediocre administrativce support for any issue outside of direct account ooerations.
Nwsteve

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwsteve ... all accounts were TOD designated.

I've learned that while conservators can do just about anything with assets and accounts, they can't make decisions on probate or inheritances. (Conservatorship ends when the ward dies.) I haven't been able to make any of Dad's assets TOD/POD, even if it's joint with my brother (as per Dad's existing will) or directly to my brother.

So now spouse and I have updated all our own accounts with TOD/POD.

[nwsteve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords I haven't been able to make any of Dad's assets TOD/POD, even if it's joint with my brother (as per Dad's existing will) or directly to my brother. So now spouse and I have updated all our own accounts with TOD/POD.

Nord,
Never would have guessed that you would be restricted in making such a change. Another bullet point for your next book on manageing parent's estate.
Perhaps, a point for Forum members to discuss with parents while parents have working cognitive abilities. See few downsides to the designations but others on the Board can chime in if there are. The TOD/POD designation sure makes settlement of estates a much easier task.
Nwsteve

[Nords]

I should update this thread with new info.

Here's the blog post that I put up last month: Geriatric financial management update

While I was on the Mainland visiting Dad, I also visited his lawyer. He has Dad's will on file and it matches the copy we have, so there are no surprises. There were no other papers in the lawyer's file, either, so I think I'm done looking for insurance policies and other assets. The lawyer and I know each other now (he could tell just by looking at me that I was Dad's son) so the personal relation will save a lot of bureaucratic red tape. When the time comes, I'll e-mail him and he'll send Dad's will to the probate court. He's also standing by for any other legal help we may need.

Every state's probate court is different, and the laws keep changing, but the lawyer pointed out that the Colorado conservator's guide says that the conservator actually can do POD/TOD designation. So this morning was "Dad paperwork day". I've verified the POD designation on his Fidelity account, and I've updated the POD designation with the bank & credit union that are holding his CDs.

The advantage of a POD/TOD designation is that the asset does not go through probate. If enough assets are POD/TOD then the remaining estate is small enough that it might not even need probate... just an affidavit to transfer the ownership.

You may think that it's somewhat macabre, even vulturous, to be planning for probate. However I've learned that it's nearly impossible to predict the longevity of an Alzheimer's patient, and I do not want to be caught unready. Oddly enough Dad is also at a point in the syndrome where every 5-10 minutes he asks about his financial situation. So I tell him about all the great financial planning he's done, and the probate procedure, and whatever else he shows interest in. When his eyeballs begin to glaze over, that's my cue to stop talking. He's known me all my life and he can still detect when I'm selectively filtering the truth, so he's tremendously reassured by my ability to blather on about the situation for a few paragraphs. He likes being complimented on his foresight & execution, because right now in his life he's easily infantilized. The probate talk leaves him feeling good, which leaves his body full of good chemicals instead of stress reactions, and he's happy. Then five minutes later he asks the question all over again. My brother was present for all these conversations, too, so it was a good way to give everyone the briefing.

After learning that Dad's pension includes a small life insurance policy (?!?), I went back to the pension servicing center again to verify that his pension has no survivor's benefits. No, it's just a single life annuity. I've checked that neither of his credit cards have any insurance or survivor benefits on their accounts, so I'm ready to close those. He hasn't charged anything on those cards for over 18 months and I haven't even activated the replacement cards.

I'll start a separate thread about his DD-214: http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...its-63245.html

[obgyn65]

Interesting thread. Thank you Nords.

After reading this thread, I have decided to buy a LTCi. Will look at Prudential, John Hancock, and Genworth.

[Nords]

It's been more than four years since I started the thread, and three years since the last update.

Dad's doing fine. He healed from his perforated ulcer, and then about six months later he went through several months of chemotherapy for an obscure form of multiple myeloma:
http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...ons-58350.html
http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...mia-58633.html
As near as we can tell, everything's in remission.

In 2012 Dad went through a phase of sundowning and once, in a rare flash of anger, he actually stomped out of the care facility. Per their procedure they called the local police and sent one of the staff to follow him. Dad calmed down a few blocks later, stopped when the police car rolled up, talked it over with the patrol officer, and went to the hospital with them. When my brother caught up with Dad a couple hours later, he'd had been given a physical exam and was being assessed for clinical (chemical) depression. The hospital put him on a low dose of Lexapro antidepressant, which continued for about a year. He's tapered off that and the sundowning does not seem to be a problem anymore. We were pretty concerned about the whole incident but Dad remembers none of it.

These days his only medications are Lisinopril (for blood pressure) and donepezil (Aricept) for cognition. The latter is a little controversial for use in mid-stage Alzheimer's but it appears to at least limit the rate of the decline.

Dad's still verbal and mobile and he keeps up with his physical, occupational, and speech therapy. His weight is stable, always a good sign for an Alzheimer's patient. He tires more easily and spends most of his days working on a jigsaw puzzle (which is actually a good activity for Alzheimer's patients). He still goes out for Sunday lunch with my brother but we're not sure how much longer he'll want to keep doing that. Over the years the decline has been slow and inevitable.

The care facility has been outstanding. I regularly hear from the accountant and the staff does quarterly teleconferences. (Dad even sits in on the conference calls. He's always amazed to learn that I'm calling from Hawaii.) My brother drops by randomly at least twice a week, so that helps a lot, but many of them are also professionals who really seem to take pride in their care.

We take it one day at a time, but we favor slow medicine over aggressive treatment. If Dad's myeloma came back or he had some other health crisis, it's quote possible that we'd favor palliative medication and hospice. Of course those decisions depend on the situation, how badly it affects him, and how much pain he's dealing with. Dad's symptoms started seven years ago and Alzheimer's progresses in completely unpredictable fits and starts. Dad could easily live with it for another decade.

John Hancock eventually moved to electronic deposit of Dad's long term care insurance payments, which made my financial chores a little easier. (They still mailed me a monthly letter to notify me of the electronic deposits. No wonder they have to keep raising premiums.) They continued to apply the policy's 5% inflation factor each year, which raised its payout cap to $318K. However they inexplicably stopped paying after the penultimate deposit, claiming that the policy was capped at $312K. The form letter was from Hancock's Time/Fortis subsidiary, and Hancock even sent a second notification on their stationery with the same text cut&pasted into their format. To add insult to injury, the text was formatted in a four-point font that required a magnifying glass.

I fired back a response with my payment records and copies of their previous correspondence about the $318K cap. After a tense two weeks they deposited the final $6K and followed up with a terse letter noting that my "request" had been "approved". Yeah, thanks for that. I still have no idea what provoked them to change the cap to $312K. I received the final 1099-LTC tax form in early 2015 and haven't heard from them since. Their customer service was horrible from the day I filed the claim until the day it reached its cap.

Needless to say, I'm not a fan of long-term care insurance. I certainly don't want my spouse to have to deal with the chore of filing the claim and tracking the payout. Here's some newer research on the subject:
Why I Won't Buy Long-Term Care Insurance - Military Guide

Dad still has his pension and Social Security, and I've conservatively projected that his assets will last another eight years. (The care facility predicts that they'll raise their rates by about 4%-6% annually.) A couple months ago, after Dad's second roommate passed away, the care facility inquired how we felt about moving Dad to a private room. It's quite a bit more expensive ($275/day vice $245) but 95% of Dad's moods and complaints have been related to roommates. Those issues generally got passed right on to my brother, who would have to drive into the care facility a few evenings a month to help Dad settle down. We decided to go with the private room at least as much for my brother's benefit as for Dad, and today everyone is much happier. As Dad's assets dwindle, we'll start the Medicaid application when he has about a year of payments left.

I get along well with the Denver probate court. (To be appointed as Dad's conservator while living in Hawaii, I actually had to sign a waiver of my extradition rights.) They thoroughly review each report and they're quick to tell me when the numbers look wrong or when my projected spending plan needs an update for the court's approval. We go through that drill every March but I spend a little time each week updating the expense register and the spreadsheets. When the annual report is due then I can usually cut&paste the numbers into the report and mail it off. (The probate court doesn't do e-mail either.) I've never been audited but they probably have plenty of other conservators to keep track of, and I think I'm pretty low on their list.

I've learned that financial institutions don't give a crap about probate court appointments. Even Dad's local bank in Grand Junction dragged me through a knothole to access his checking account (with its pension and Social Security deposits). I'm technically supposed to notify all of the companies he does business with, but I've stopped volunteering that info. Whenever possible, I do business online and avoid talking to humans. If I get a letter in the mail then I respond on their website or even via e-mail. I've kept his finances as simple as I can and I do all payments & transfers electronically. If a company thinks the finances are handled by my Dad, then I don't correct them. I haven't written a paper check as conservator yet, and I hope I never have to.

I don't plan to update this thread very often, but I'm subscribed to its notifications or you can send me a PM.

[Retch The Grate]

Thanks for the update Nords. My folks are busy planning things carefully for their later years as they had to deal with my grandfather's decline and untangling all the random bank accounts and whatnot after he passed, so hopefully I won't have to deal with much, but reading what you are experiencing is really helpful for thinking about the future.

[Free To Canoe]

I am grateful for the update.
My mother is progressing down this road. She is clinging to her independence with the help of post it notes. I am the go-to helper for finances and general upkeep and the only one she has.

This Alzheimer's / dementia is a big part of my family landscape. My older aunt died of it this year. One cousin that I was close to when I was growing up has it. His wife takes care of him for now. When I was a child we used to take vacations together. He seems happy but he doesn't know who I am.
My other aunt died of Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease when she was as old as I am now (61). I wonder if they will find a genetic connection between the two some day.


I realize that my duties are laughably light compared to others, say my cousin's wife. Still, I spend time thinking about it. I don't know how this will end up but I got to take it one day at a time.

[Nords]

As some of you already know, my father passed away last month from Alzheimer's complications. More details are on The-Military-Guide and my Facebook profile, but it's the typical inevitable result of the disease's end stage.

We've had over six years to prepare for this yet it was still unexpectedly quick. His health deteriorated rapidly during a few days, and we brought in hospice (and a 24-hour nursing service) on a Friday afternoon. They still thought Dad would hang in there for weeks and survive one more health crisis. By Friday night Dad's restlessness was calmed with morphine, and he died peacefully on Saturday morning.

"The Military Guide" book was written on this forum with the advice & stories of more than 70 of us, but Dad was my first inspiration for early retirement. Here's an excerpt from my memoriam:

Quote:

During one of Dad’s rare Hawaii visits in the late 1990s, I was contemplating my impending retirement from the U.S. Navy’s submarine force. I’d just completed the usual series of “interest surveys” and “assessment tools” to find a bridge career, and the results indicated that I had a bright future as a nuclear engineer or a mid-level manager. I was grousing to Dad about this epiphany when he gave me one of those looks which fathers reserve for their especially slow-witted sons: Dad: “You’ve been in the Navy for all these years. Did you manage to save any of that money?” Me: “Um, yeah, and it’s grown quite a bit.” Dad: “So why would you want to keep working? Do you have enough to retire yet?” Me: **Blinding flash of the obvious.** I was nearly 40 years old during that conversation, yet that was the first time in my life when anyone (let alone me) had given me permission to stop working for a paycheck. I took Dad’s advice to heart. I retired from active duty in 2002 and never looked back. I certainly figured out what I was gonna do all day. I dedicated “The Military Guide” to him “… for asking the questions.”

[MichaelB]

Condolences, Nords.

[RunningBum]

Your dad's advice was a gift that keeps giving. What a nice way to remember him by!

[Dreamer]

Even when you have time to prepare, it is still hard. Hugs to you and your family.

[Htown Harry]

Deepest sympathies, Nords.

[powerplay]

Condolences to you and your family.

Thank you for sharing the journey with us on ER.

[MarieIG]

My Condolences to you and your family. You have been a good son.