Government workers are the richest folks? Maybe so.

[Rustic23]

Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard, State, County, City, Federal Gov. Lots of employers.

I'm not saying you are a great candidate for a Government Job, I do get tired of people telling me how 'Lucky' I am to have a military pension. Most them had the same chance to serve as I did and chose not to. Others chuckled when I took a county job after leaving the military. 'Sucker just think what you could make in the private sector!'

Most are still working!

 

[freebird5825]

How much do you think you can get from the private sector in terms of percentage?

The average salary of an engineer V in Minneapolis, MN is about $114,171. The equivalent position, I guess, would be a GS-13, step 6, the salary of which would be $95,598 (80,065 * (1 + 19.4%) according to 2008 General Schedule Pay Scale.

It's about 19% lower, not way,way lower. The calculation, however, may be way off since an engineer V is actually a lot higher or lower than a GS-13.

well, let's get some real live numbers out there...it doesn't matter to me cuz i'm FIREd now.

I was a GS-13, step 3 and my gross salary before FIRE was just under $80K. the GS-13 grade, for those who aren't familiar, it is the highest grade just under management grades (14 and above), i.e senior staff grade but not supervisory.

the 2008 GS Pay Schedule is useful as a baseline for new hires, but the locality pay isn't always that great for small towns (see Rest of US rates). Large city workers get premium locality pay to offset the higher cost of living.

in any case, there is a differential between private and govt salary ranges. as with any field, salary ranges are subject to supply and demand for that field and locality.

my contractor friends were in the high $90K to $120K range, with equivalent exp and education.

my salary was just fine, no complaints here. i lucked out because i do live in a relatively low cost area compared to urban areas. as a result, i was able to sock away between 10-18% of salary into my TSP over the years. and that made it possible for me to FIRE.

good discussion BTW.

 

[youbet]

Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard, State, County, City, Federal Gov. Lots of employers.

I'm not saying you are a great candidate for a Government Job, I do get tired of people telling me how 'Lucky' I am to have a military pension. Most them had the same chance to serve as I did and chose not to. Others chuckled when I took a county job after leaving the military. 'Sucker just think what you could make in the private sector!'

Most are still working!

Your post is a bit of a oxymoron. You're tired of being told you're lucky to have a govt pension yet boast about being RE while the private sector folks are still working......

You are "lucky" or "fortunate" or "things worked out well" or whatever word you wanted to use. I understand that you don't want to hear about it, and I don't blame you for that, but you have a situation most folks would aspire to.

 

[utrecht]

You are not referring to salary of security guards in the private sector? Their compensation is inferior in comparison to that of a police officer.

You're not seriously going to compare what a security guard does to what a police officer does, are you?

I was thinking more along the lines of a police detective compared to some sort of private sector investigator. Lets say a fraud investigator for an insurance company or something like that. There is no private sector comparison to what a patrol officer does. Not even close.

Also, your comparison of a private sector engineer shows a 19% difference in salary to a govt engineer? Add the govt employees 5-10% pension contributions and throw in whatever a company 401k match is worth and then tell me how much all of that adds up to if the employee invested all of it for 25 years.

My rough caculations tell me that if all of that money was saved / invested it would be in the neighborhood of a million dollars over 25 years which would put the private sector guy in good shape without a pension.

 

[utrecht]

By the way, I dont mean to sound like Im complaining at all. Im perfectly happy with my situation. I chose to become a police officer after leaving the Army for alot of different reasons and wouldve done it without the great pension I have.

Also, my apologies to the original poster. I apparently misread the reason the thread.

 

[youbet]

That's the problem it isn't improving the recruiting or retention.

Obviously, the situation is being mismanaged or there are some other factors coming into play you're not mentioning. If the agency management can offer significantly higher salaries, they should be able to recruit and retain despite reduced pension benefits. At least that's how it seems to be working in the private sector where companies who have eliminated DBP pensions are still able to snap up talent by offering high wages. If the agency you're referring to can't recruit, they need to up starting salaries. If they can't retain, they need to up experienced worker salaries to be competitive.

Again, my point is that we need to pay gov't workers today from taxes collected today. We need to stop offering them future benefits our children will have to pay for. The current system was dreamed up by old-goat politicians who knew they were making promises that they'd never have to keep.......

And we need to have entry and exit from public sector careers unencumbered by "golden handcuffs."

 

[W2R]

It is a free country, anyone who thinks this is the way to riches fill out an application.

Absolutely. We currently have a 19% vacancy rate in all agencies' federal positions in the New Orleans area, according to statistics submitted to OPM this month. This may not be the most desirable, yuppified, prestigious location in the world, but there are federal jobs here. We need warm bodies. I am sure you could get something, though probably not at the pay rate that some may expect, not doing your "dream job" that you prepared all your life to do, and not with the instant seniority without time in the job that others may expect. Also the cost of living here has risen much faster recently than elsewhere.

Come one, come all!

http://www.federaltimes.com/index.php?S=3710401

Currently federal agencies in New Orleans have an overall 19 percent vacancy rate because the area’s high costs are making it tougher to recruit

 

[FurBall]

Govt v private sector -- different but equal?
I've always been a govt contractor. I have many friends in the government and we each see the grass as greener on the other side.

At about age 30, a friend and I went separate ways. She went to work for the govt and I remained a contractor. At first my salary rose a little more than hers. Over time she became SES but my salary was dramatically higher than hers. We had very similar lives and spending patterns.

I "retired" without a pension 2 yrs ago at age 56 but soon started consulting back 3 days a week because the money was outstanding and the project seemed fun and worthwhile. I had to find my own health insurance (200/month for HSA plan).

She retired with a pension 1 year ago with retiree heath insurance.

We continue to have similar spending habits/lifestyle and seem to have come out in much the same position with the exception of her peace of mind over health insurance and an inflation protected pension. But for anyone who isn't as much of a worrier as I am, my savings would more than cover her pension and then some.

Interesting factoid -- we have both used the same hairdresser for the past 30 years. She too has been able to reduce her work days to 3 days per week.

 

[Rustic23]

I do not consider myself lucky because I choose a career that paid less than my civilian counterparts, let's look at my $60,000 salary when I left the service vs the $120,000 salary for an airline pilot. I choose a career that at best was high risk. I got shot at every day for a year! Maybe lucky to survive to retirement, not lucky that the pension and my lbym afforded me the chance to retire. I also did 20 years in three other fields before I retired and it is the sum of all these jobs that allow me to retire. My retirement for 20 years in the AF is $27,000 take home a year. It is COLA adjusted. I still profess it is not luck, I earned it and and the majority of folks I graduated from college could be in the same boat, however, most did not want to go to Vietnam!

We all make choices. There are folks that have managed there stocks better than I. I don't consider them 'lucky' because they took more risk, knew what they were doing, made some good choices. When you are playing poker and all the odds are against you and you draw the last and only ace that wins the pot, that's luck.

I stand by my earlier post. If you think government jobs are so great, get one. There are lots to go around. I'll bet, however, 'not in my area', 'my wife won't move', 'I don't like that field', 'that does not pay enough for me' and so on, lots of reasons no good excuses.

 

[accountingsucks]

Or we could just all be train operaters for the city of New York and become "disabled" at retirement.

Read this article and I guarantee you will be pissed

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/21lirr.html?pagewanted=1&ref=nyregion

 

[ziggy29]

I think the intention of OP was to point out that the benfit of a nice DBP pension is becoming relatively more valuable as part of a overall compensation package everyday. A decade ago, when many private sector folks had DBP pensions, the comparison between public and private sector compensation packages was a comparison that included differences between the two pensions. Today it's typically a comparison of private = 401k with some sort of match vs public with 403b (or similar) with no match plus a DBP pension. The pendelum has swung heavily towards the public sector package.

Could be. The thing is, if I knew 10-20 years ago what I know today, I would have made different career choices. I think as time goes on and trends in employment and compensation continue, the relative value of the public sector benefits keeps getting higher and higher, thus meaning that the "lower pay" (to the extent that's even true any more) is easily made up by the value of the benefits package -- not to mention any attempts to put a monetary value on job security.

As times get more uncertain, I think we'll continue to see more and more taxpayer backlash with respect to paying higher taxes to "save" pension and retiree medical benefits for other people.

 

[Gworker]

If you go to usajobs.com and search all jobs there are currently 50310 jobs available. All are encouraged to apply. I'll admit federal employment has it's benefits but there are many downfalls also.

Like Rustic23 says, I have moved a few times and have done a few years HQ time in DC. Luckily my wife was agreeable. Some of the benefits are good but I definitely am not going to be "rich". I have a good job and hopefully if the politicians don't mess it up a decent retirement plan and health benefits.

 

[Helen]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Times are changing and the private sector is doing away with pensions, they are a rarity these days. The gap is widening between private sector and Government workers and the resentment is growing. Something has to change, my guess is the Feds are going to introduce a new retirement system before long, perhaps something with a higher contribution rate to the TSP and no pension?

I worked in private industry after college for 10 years. I took a Federal job because I liked the work, the job security and the atmosphere (I consulted at this agency while working for Digital Equipment Corp.). I also took a pay cut and benefits cut to take the job. 1.5 years later I was given a promotion which put me back to the same pay rate I was earning in private industry. DEC was bought out a few years after I left and I'll bet very few of my coworkers survived the buyouts (Compaq, HP).

At age 51, I am really glad I made the change. When I took the Government job I could have cared less about the pension and matching TSP contributions as I never thought I'd stay through retirement.

I do think things need to change. If pensions are no longer a part of the private sector, then they probably shouldn't be a part of the Government retirement system.

 

[Linney]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Times are changing and the private sector is doing away with pensions, they are a rarity these days. The gap is widening between private sector and Government workers and the resentment is growing.
.
.
.
I worked in private industry after college for 10 years. I took a Federal job because I liked the work, the job security and the atmosphere (I consulted at this agency while working for Digital Equipment Corp.). I also took a pay cut and benefits cut to take the job. 1.5 years later I was given a promotion which put me back to the same pay rate I was earning in private industry. DEC was bought out a few years after I left and I'll bet very few of my coworkers survived the buyouts (Compaq, HP).

It is not only a question of surviving the buyouts -- those companies you listed have now frozen their pension plan and eliminated retiree medical benefits. For someone who has put in 20-25 years with the expectation of getting those benefits, it's a real blow. I don't see this magnitude of changes happening in the public sector. And after 20-25 years working in private industry, it feels a bit late to "start over" in a federal job.

Helen, I think you made a good choice when you switched over.

--Linney

 

[Bimmerbill]

I'm one of those "lucky" federal employees who migrated from the GS pay plan to the new pay for performance pay plan called NSPS. I'm trying to remain positive, but have yet to receive my first yearly review and payout/raise. That should happen in JAN. From what I can see, the system is designed to save uncle sam money at my expense. But, I'll reserve judgement until JAN...

I think there will be continuing and vocal backlash against federal pensions. I am hoping the system doesn't change much for those of us who are currently in it, otherwise I will have to consider my options.

One of the most distressing part of how my command is implementing NSPS pay raises is the mandatory split between salary increase and bonus. My command is mandating a 70/30 split. Bonus pay does not count toward the TSP match, pension, next years pay raise, etc. I expect a considerable erosion of my base pay, and therefore pension, over the next 14 years.

 

[ziggy29]

I think there will be continuing and vocal backlash against federal pensions. I am hoping the system doesn't change much for those of us who are currently in it, otherwise I will have to consider my options.

I'm pretty vocal that things need to change and that taxpayers can't afford this much longer -- but I'd be even more vocal against changing the rules for people already in the system.

 

[freebird5825]

Or we could just all be train operaters for the city of New York and become "disabled" at retirement.

Read this article and I guarantee you will be pissed

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/21lirr.html?pagewanted=1&ref=nyregion

NY has some pretty strange laws about work related disability. i know of several cases of able bodied folks who got themselves classified as "disabled, work related" and continue to play golf, drive cross country on vacations, work part time doing construction, etc etc. it just sickens me!
all you need to do is talk a good line with your doctor, fake the symptoms and you are home free. these scammers are an epidemic that needs to be cured.
the sad part is the truly disabled [work related] workers often do not know how to work the system and are honest, and are refused benefits.
thanks for posting that. we have a pretty good state attorney general in place, so i'm hoping this gets rooted out.

 

[freebird5825]

I'm one of those "lucky" federal employees who migrated from the GS pay plan to the new pay for performance pay plan called NSPS. ...From what I can see, the system is designed to save uncle sam money at my expense. But, I'll reserve judgement until JAN...

One of the most distressing part of how my command is implementing NSPS pay raises is the mandatory split between salary increase and bonus. My command is mandating a 70/30 split. Bonus pay does not count toward the TSP match, pension, next years pay raise, etc. I expect a considerable erosion of my base pay, and therefore pension, over the next 14 years.

this was done as a "demonstration" for us back in 1997. the net result i saw was the "fox was loose in the henhouse and the farmer was in the lower forty". a few favorites at the top were awarded tremendous bonuses and the rank and file was given pittances. i sincerely hope it is done fairly where you are. good luck!

 

[Bimmerbill]

Yes, fairness is a concern. That and my boss is 1400 miles away, so its a constant struggle for me to update him on my projects and to make sure he knows I'm doing a good job.

He did say there was no pressure to fit ratings to the normal bell curve. So, I guess in reality he could rate all of his employees a 5 (1 to 5 scale, 5 being walk on water, 3 being the "norm" as a valued performer). Trouble is, the funding wouldn't be available to reward everyone with a 5.

 

[LOL!]

Nope, government workers are not the richest. Long Island Railroad retirees are the richest ... at least according to the NYTimes (as accountingsucks already posted):
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/21lirr.html

Something doesn't smell right in Nassau and Suffolk counties.

 

[Goonie]

At the risk of being blasted out of existence, I offer the following:

1. As a Federal employee, now annuitant, I pay taxes just like everyone else. In a sense, I paid my own salary through my income taxes, and I pay my own pension through my income taxes.
2. I pay income taxes on every dollar in pension I receive. Most Social Security recipients don’t pay taxes on their benefits, and those that do only pay on a portion.
3. I paid 7% of every dollar I ever earned as a Federal employee into my pension plan.
4. Even though I worked and paid social security taxes for enough time to earn a benefit, when I turn 62, the maximum I will get will be about $100.00 per month due to the windfall elimination provision.
5. Unlike employees in the private sector who could contribute up to 10% of their salary to a 401K, most often with employer matching funds, as a CSRS employee, by law, I was limited to contributing no more than 7%, with no matching contributions.
6. While availability of health insurance is primarily what allowed me to retire at age 56, it is by no means free, or even inexpensive. Premiums this year for my wife and I amount to $320.00 a month, and they are increasing at a rapid rate every year. My 2007 premium was $235.00 per month (a 34% increase from 2007 to 208).
7. COLA – yes it’s nice. But everyone who gets social security also gets a COLA.

It’s not a free ride.

For me:
1. Ditto
2. Ditto
3. I paid 4.5% of every dollar into a muni/county/state pension plan.
4. Fortunately I won't be affected by the WEP.
5. Ditto
6. Same here....health ins. was a key factor for my ER. I feel fortunate that my monthly premium (single coverage) is only $155 (up from $142 in '07).
7. Ditto

being in private sector vs govt service is always a personal choice.

It is a free country, anyone who thinks this is the way to riches fill out an application.

That's what I always tell my friends....but they laugh it off, and stick with the jobs that they have, that they hate & complain about incessantly! At which point, after a while, I tell them to either do something about it or STFU.

.....I have a military pension (not included in the 23 million figure) and I appreciate and value it a great deal, but I feel that my service and sacrifice over the years is now being compensated to me on a monthly basis.

Less then, more now.

Though I don't have a military pension, I feel exactly the same as mickeyd.

 

[freebird5825]

Yes, fairness is a concern. That and my boss is 1400 miles away, so its a constant struggle for me to update him on my projects and to make sure he knows I'm doing a good job.

He did say there was no pressure to fit ratings to the normal bell curve. So, I guess in reality he could rate all of his employees a 5 (1 to 5 scale, 5 being walk on water, 3 being the "norm" as a valued performer). Trouble is, the funding wouldn't be available to reward everyone with a 5.

ah, the "Fully Successful" rating rears its ugly head.
my reaction when i first saw that was "I would like to think we are Fully Successful in life."
i often wondered who had a brain fart way back when and made that one up, but thinking about that too much just made my head hurt...
an idea...when i was a contractor (pre-govt service era), i had to do weekly status reports for my govt PM. so i used my email calendar as a note taker for what i did every day, at a very top level. it chimed at me every day 30 minutes before i was done. i jotted down the day's accomplishments and misguided boomerangs.
i continued this habit when i became a Fed. it really helped me keep focused in a fast-paced, multi-tasking position.
maybe you could adopt a similar habit and then do bi-weeklies or monthlies to your boss? use the KISS method.

 

[Goonie]

Sorry for the looong post, but...

The problem with pensions being the "sweetener" is that they are vulnerable to politicians not funding them adequately in the present time and the next generation being responsible for promises being made today.

I'd like to see govt DBP pensions eliminated (phased out gracefully over time) and the compensation packages sweetened to attract plenty of qualified applicants. In this way, we'd be on a pay as you go basis instead of always building up huge debts for the next generation.

The public pension plan that I'm under operates "pay as you go". I paid in 4.5% of my wages for 30+ years, and my employer paid in a similar %. The day I retired I quit paying into the plan......and so did my employer! Neither myself nor my employer will ever pay in another nickel to cover my pension.

I realize that not all public pension plans are like that, maybe not even most, but mine is.

An old saying "they check in but never check out" would describe government workers. It's very, very hard to leave a government job since benefits and pay increase significantly with time. The longer the stay, the better the benefit. They complain about the lower pay, the bureaucracy, and lousy assignments but continue to stay.

I don't think that's confined only to the public sector. I think it's more a matter of perspective......'the grass being greener on the other side of the fence'. Maybe the private sector looks over and thinks that the public sector [-]has it made in the shade[/-] is better off than they themselves. But the public sector does the same thing while looking over the fence at the private sector. Just a matter of perspective.

If unions don't like it, it is probably good for the taxpayer.

You mean my Union was against me (a taxpayer) for all those years by fighting for higher wages, better working conditions, and better benefits? 'Cause I really thought I was a taxpayer for all those years, since Uncle took out his more-than-fair share of my weekly paycheck. Maybe I should've refused the pay raises and benefits when they were given to me......or maybe I should go beat-up Uncle Sam and get back that money he stole from me each payday 'cause maybe I really wasn't a taxpayer after all!

.....the government employment is a more lucrative deal.......
All kidding aside, I am just stating that it is a good deal working for the govt vs private sector. Count your blessing guys/gals.

Again, I think it's mostly a matter of perspective.....'the grass is greener' deal. Because I always thought you guys in the private sector were gods!

.....I do get tired of people telling me how 'Lucky' I am to have a military pension. Most them had the same chance to serve as I did and chose not to.

Most are still working!

Exactly! NOT luck! It was/is a thing called "CHOICE".....everybody has it! Six other [-]co-conspirators[/-] co-workers ER'd at the same time I did from our gubmint jobs. VERY few of our peers who work in the private sector have been able to ER. We made our choices...they made their choices......pretty simple.

Your post is a bit of a oxymoron. You're tired of being told you're lucky to have a govt pension yet boast about being RE while the private sector folks are still working......

You are "lucky" or "fortunate" or "things worked out well" or whatever word you wanted to use. I understand that you don't want to hear about it, and I don't blame you for that, but you have a situation most folks would aspire to.

Again, not 'luck'....but 'choice'. "Fortunate"? Absolutely! But not 'lucky'. Luck has to do with chance......while fortunate has much more to do with choice.

I applied for a job a large international industry that (at the time) paid MUCH better than public jobs did, and had FAR better benefits than public jobs did, and our local facility employed ~1000 people. Since then, their wages have stagnated, benefits have been gutted to near nothing, and they currently employ (as of a year ago) 182 people.

And, yeah, we may be proud of the fact that we were able to ER, while our private sector peers are still running in the hamster cage......but they're probably still better off than us though! I mean, hey, they can still contribute to their IRA's, 401K's, SS, Medicare, etc., but us poor ol' public retirees can't do those things anymore. We have to scrape by on our measly COLA'd DB pensions, and our other investments.

 

[Goonie]

OK, this is it...then I'll shut up....

Could be. The thing is, if I knew 10-20 years ago what I know today, I would have made different career choices.

Nobody knew when they first started out, how things would work out one way or the other. We all weigh things out and think things through, and then make the most reasonable choice that we can given the info we had to work with.

As times get more uncertain, I think we'll continue to see more and more taxpayer backlash.......

I'm pretty vocal that things need to change and that taxpayers can't afford this much longer......

No offense intended toward you or any of the others here.....but I keep hearing this "taxpayer" rhetoric, not just here in the forums but also in real life, and it strikes me as a bit odd. I mean, do private sector folks think that public sector folks don't pay taxes or something. I know for a fact that I've been paying taxes since I had my 1st 'real' job back in HS, and paid taxes for over 30 years as a public employee, and continue to pay taxes as a retiree.

As a taxpayer, I am against ALL wasteful spending, but not against spending for reasonable wages and benefits for ALL gov't employees...from the bottom of the food chain, all the way to the top. And I also think it's a shame that CEO's and corporate execs in the private sector make bazillions of bucks, while their employees wallow in the squalor of less than acceptable wages and meager benefits.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Times are changing and the private sector is doing away with pensions, they are a rarity these days. The gap is widening between private sector and Government workers and the resentment is growing.......

I do think things need to change. If pensions are no longer a part of the private sector, then they probably shouldn't be a part of the Government retirement system.

On the other hand, maybe the private sector should start channeling some of the profits away from the CEO's and corporate execs, and start reinstating pensions and better benefits. But since the CEO's and corporate execs have the say-so, it probably isn't likely to happen. But why should public employees suffer simply to 'level the playing field' due to the greed and corruption of the private sector's hierarchy and their gutting of their employees' benefits.

I say raise the standard in the private sector, instead of lowering it in the public sector.
-----------------------------------------
OK, I'm done....time for lunch!

 

[freebird5825]

WHAT HE SAID!

woohooo, Goonie, good response!