Government workers are the richest folks? Maybe so.

[friar1610]

I'm retired from the Navy but spent several tours of duty at a government agency that was about 80% civilian/20% military. After I retired, I worked as a contractor (with two separate companies) on projects for that agency for a few years. For what they're worth, here are my observations:
- there were many hard-working, smart, dedicated civilians working at this agency. They could have made more money "on the outside" but were dedicated to the agency's mission and its role in our country's security.
- there were also many drones who were just there for the paycheck and the benefits.
- the majority probably fell somewhere in the middle.
- I made more money as a contractor than I probably would have in a comparable civilian job with that agency. But, as a contractor I:
-- got less vacation;
-- had no pension plan (with one company) and a less generous pension plan (with another company.) I never worked long enough as a contractor to earn a pension.
-- got a 401K match. (But I never worked long enough to get vested).
-- had to do about as much uncompensated work as the more dedicated gov't employees did.

I found that a lot of civilian employees at this agency would work there until they were eligible for retirement, take their gov't pensions and then go to work for the contractors supporting this agency for 5 - 10 years before really retiring. Not unlike what a lot of military folk do, except that military people are generally about 10 years younger when they hit the first retirement point.

 

[Linney]

I'm one of those "lucky" federal employees who migrated from the GS pay plan to the new pay for performance pay plan called NSPS. I'm trying to remain positive, but have yet to receive my first yearly review and payout/raise.
.
.
.
One of the most distressing part of how my command is implementing NSPS pay raises is the mandatory split between salary increase and bonus. My command is mandating a 70/30 split. Bonus pay does not count toward the TSP match, pension, next years pay raise, etc. I expect a considerable erosion of my base pay, and therefore pension, over the next 14 years.

The MegaCorp that I work for instituted this change last year, except the ratio is more like a 25/75 split (25% salary increase to 75% bonus). Most of us did not get any salary increase. The bonus was nice to get but --- as Bimmerbill noted --- this results in considerable compensation erosion over time because other benefits are tied to salary, not bonus money.

--Linney

 

[Helen]

I like your comment a lot, Goonie. I totally agree, the CEO's are grossly overpaid while the people who keep the lights on keep getting screwed.

On the other hand, maybe the private sector should start channeling some of the profits away from the CEO's and corporate execs, and start reinstating pensions and better benefits. But since the CEO's and corporate execs have the say-so, it probably isn't likely to happen. But why should public employees suffer simply to 'level the playing field' due to the greed and corruption of the private sector's hierarchy and their gutting of their employees' benefits.

I say raise the standard in the private sector, instead of lowering it in the public sector.
-----------------------------------------
OK, I'm done....time for lunch!

 

[ziggy29]

I'm pretty vocal that things need to change and that taxpayers can't afford this much longer......

No offense intended toward you or any of the others here.....but I keep hearing this "taxpayer" rhetoric, not just here in the forums but also in real life, and it strikes me as a bit odd.

Thanks for the selective editing and for deleting the part where I *very* clearly state I want existing promises to be kept and honored. I appreciate it.

 

[youbet]

choice[/I].

I applied for a job a large international industry that (at the time) paid MUCH better than public jobs did, and had FAR better benefits than public jobs did, and our local facility employed ~1000 people. Since then, their wages have stagnated, benefits have been gutted to near nothing, and they currently employ (as of a year ago) 182 people.

Well Goonie, I just didn't realize you had the ability to predict that your gov't job would ramain and flourish through changes in administrations, budgeting cycles, etc. and that the private company would falter years and years before those things happened. So, yep, no luck for you! You saw what would happen years in the future and picked the one with the most favorable outcome for you. Good job!

 

[ziggy29]

I'm retired from the Navy but spent several tours of duty at a government agency that was about 80% civilian/20% military. After I retired, I worked as a contractor (with two separate companies) on projects for that agency for a few years. For what they're worth, here are my observations:
- there were many hard-working, smart, dedicated civilians working at this agency. They could have made more money "on the outside" but were dedicated to the agency's mission and its role in our country's security.
- there were also many drones who were just there for the paycheck and the benefits.
- the majority probably fell somewhere in the middle.
- I made more money as a contractor than I probably would have in a comparable civilian job with that agency. But, as a contractor I:
-- got less vacation;
-- had no pension plan (with one company) and a less generous pension plan (with another company.) I never worked long enough as a contractor to earn a pension.
-- got a 401K match. (But I never worked long enough to get vested).
-- had to do about as much uncompensated work as the more dedicated gov't employees did.

I found that a lot of civilian employees at this agency would work there until they were eligible for retirement, take their gov't pensions and then go to work for the contractors supporting this agency for 5 - 10 years before really retiring. Not unlike what a lot of military folk do, except that military people are generally about 10 years younger when they hit the first retirement point.

I've heard many stories from people who work for defense contractors where a lot of 40ish military guys are retired after their 20 years. They then work for another 15-20 years with the defense business and retire again. And finally, after they "retire" at age 55 or 60, they still get retiree health insurance, two generous pensions AND continue to work for the aerospace company as a contractor making $75-100 an hour. And a few of them were also collecting Social Security after hitting 62!

 

[Goonie]

Well Goonie, I just didn't realize you had the ability to predict that your gov't job would ramain and flourish through changes in administrations, budgeting cycles, etc. and that the private company would falter years and years before those things happened. So, yep, no luck for you! You saw what would happen years in the future and picked the one with the most favorable outcome for you. Good job!

I didn't predict either set of circumstances, I merely chose the one that I thought to be the best for me at that time. Just as many of my peers chose what they thought to be the best for them at that time. None of us could find the directions to use our crystal balls back then, so we just did the best we could, with what info and knowledge that we had to go with.....nothing more...nothing less. For myself and some of my peers, our choices paid off with the ability to FIRE at or near 50 years of age, or even younger. For others in our peer group, even some who chose public sector, the choice they made hasn't paid off in like manner.....for whatever reason. Some due to job choice, or to spending habits, or to saving/investing habits, or family circumstances, or whatever.

Unfortunately, not all of my peers survived the circumstances of their choices as well as myself and some of the others did.....whether in private or public sectors.

I was fortunate to survive eight political administrations (4 years each), several 'belt tightenings', a few pay freezes, several changes in insurance companies and coverages, several insurance premium hikes, many threats of downsizing, job elimination, and outsourcing, a lot of shuffling, reshuffling, and unshuffling of departments and personnel. And a lot of 'take aways' in our benefit packages. That's not to say it was all negative, all of the time....because it wasn't! Our Union fought tooth and nail for every contract we ever negotiated. Some contracts we "got"....some contracts we "gave"......but through every contract we avoided downsizing and outsourcing, even of those who either chose not to be in the Union or who were ineligible to join because of their job classification (i.e. management). And through the tough times we not only preserved all of the public services that the citizens had come to expect, but we were able to expand them, and offer new services to them (at no additional cost to them).

I decided a loooong time ago to live my life by choice.....not by chance or luck......and it seems to have paid off. YMMV
-----------------------------------------------
Granted there's an exception to every rule. For me the exception is when I punch the button while playing the slots in Vegas.....if I win (fat chance of that happening) it's purely 'luck'!

 

[Goonie]

Thanks for the selective editing and for deleting the part where I *very* clearly state I want existing promises to be kept and honored. I appreciate it.

I didn't edit that out for the purpose of changing or twisting the meaning or the intent of your post. I only edited it because I was aiming solely at the term "taxpayer", and I was only trying to limit the length of my quotings and my overall post. My only intent was to reaffirm the fact that those of us who were, or are, in the public sector are also "taxpayers". Thus meaning that there are millions of us taxpayers that are for quality benefits and pensions for public sector employee. And like all "taxpayers", whether public or private sector (or at least I would hope all), we are against the outright wasteful squandering of our tax dollars by the bureaucrats for dumb stuff.

I certainly didn't do it to irritate or agitate or misconstrue anything. My apologies if that's the way it came across.

 

[freebird5825]

I was fortunate to survive eight political administrations (4 years each), several 'belt tightenings', a few pay freezes, several changes in insurance companies and coverages, several insurance premium hikes, many threats of downsizing, job elimination, and outsourcing, a lot of shuffling, reshuffling, and unshuffling of departments and personnel. And a lot of 'take aways' in our benefit packages.

...And through the tough times we not only preserved all of the public services that the citizens had come to expect, but we were able to expand them, and offer new services to them (at no additional cost to them).

and let us not forget the constant BRACs of the 90s. i thought my j*b was toast with each one. there were many sleepless nights in those years....rethinking public service vs private sector, wondering if we could sell the house if involuntarily relocated by BRAC, or if RIFed in place, how to find jobs...whew...

 

[FinanceDude]

And that is why you guys defend it so vigorously.

 

[Purron]

Quote:
Originally Posted by haha
And that is why you guys defend it so vigorously.

I think we should draft haha and FinanceDude to work for the Treasury Department to help clean this mess up. They clearly know what's wrong with our goverment

 

[Canadian Grunt]

Quote:
Originally Posted by haha
And that is why you guys defend it so vigorously.




I think we should draft haha and FinanceDude to work for the Treasury Department to help clean this mess up. They clearly know what's wrong with our goverment

Right, rely on the sacrifices of your military and law enforcement people to protect your 1st amendment rights and the right of free enterprise and then grieve their retirement benefits after they fulfill their obligations to society based on their contracts for employment.

Don’t complain about someone else’s package when you can seek the same benefits or apply for a better job on the street.

There seems to be a high discontent with civil service. Do you use hospitals, like security, peace, social networks, and value an educated society? All these things take civil service.

If you want corruption within the police service, insecurity, rampant poverty, and a lack of education and social structure then look no further than Afghanistan. Is that the type of country you aspire to?

If you don’t secure the future of police personnel in retirement you open the system to corruption. Same ideology goes for every other civil service job. Afghanistan is a great model of what happens when the civil service is broken.

A little time spent in foreign countries (not package tours to the nice places of the world) will cure many of their discontent with their current countries systems. Be thankful for what you have not what others have.

 

[Bimmerbill]

Well, I agree that there is rising discontent with the public sector benefit package. I don't know if its jealousy, envy, or just plain financial concern that seems to rile up people over the fed pension plan.
I'm not sure how many people would quit the public sector and go private if the benefit package were cut. I think I would, especially if the federal pension was modified. But, I'm in the IT industry where salaries are typically much higher. Sure, I'd have to work longer hours etc, but could probably get a 25-50% raise (at least).

 

[freebird5825]

Right, rely on the sacrifices of your military and law enforcement people to protect your 1st amendment rights and the right of free enterprise and then grieve their retirement benefits after they fulfill their obligations to society based on their contracts for employment.

Don’t complain about someone else’s package when you can seek the same benefits or apply for a better job on the street.

There seems to be a high discontent with civil service. Do you use hospitals, like security, peace, social networks, and value an educated society? All these things take civil service.

If you want corruption within the police service, insecurity, rampant poverty, and a lack of education and social structure then look no further than Afghanistan. Is that the type of country you aspire to?

If you don’t secure the future of police personnel in retirement you open the system to corruption. Same ideology goes for every other civil service job. Afghanistan is a great model of what happens when the civil service is broken.

A little time spent in foreign countries (not package tours to the nice places of the world) will cure many of their discontent with their current countries systems. Be thankful for what you have not what others have.

THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE!!!

are we related? j/k

 

[FinanceDude]

Well, I agree that there is rising discontent with the public sector benefit package. I don't know if its jealousy, envy, or just plain financial concern that seems to rile up people over the fed pension plan.
I'm not sure how many people would quit the public sector and go private if the benefit package were cut. I think I would, especially if the federal pension was modified. But, I'm in the IT industry where salaries are typically much higher. Sure, I'd have to work longer hours etc, but could probably get a 25-50% raise (at least).

I think the difference between private and public sector is a wash when you throw benefits at it. We have a local proposal to build a new elementary school for 500 kids. One of the School Board guys gave me in the info:

They would need 3 kindergarten teachers for the new school, who would be paid $60,000 a year plus health care for their entire family for $25 a month. Their max pension after 25 years of service is the average of their last 5 years salary at a 80% rate. The average salary of the principals in out school district is $117,000 a year plus full benefits.

I don't see how $60,000 a year is low pay, maybe someone could help me out with that. I will agree that compared to this, police officers and firefighters are woefully underpaid........

Our police chief only makes $87,000, $30,000 a year less than the principals. Plus, he gets to be on call 24 hours a day, but he does get a "car allowance"......

 

[FinanceDude]

Well, I agree that there is rising discontent with the public sector benefit package. I don't know if its jealousy, envy, or just plain financial concern that seems to rile up people over the fed pension plan.
I'm not sure how many people would quit the public sector and go private if the benefit package were cut. I think I would, especially if the federal pension was modified. But, I'm in the IT industry where salaries are typically much higher. Sure, I'd have to work longer hours etc, but could probably get a 25-50% raise (at least).

It's the excesses of many school districts in the USA that spills over to the public govt workers in general, which is unfair to be lumped in.

 

[freebird5825]

I don't see how $60,000 a year is low pay, maybe someone could help me out with that. I will agree that compared to this, police officers and firefighters are woefully underpaid........

there is no good formula for compensation for the dangers that police and firefighters face...

how about the volunteer firefighters in small towns like mine? these folks work for FREE, and are on call 24/7. the next time you see a fund raiser by your local vol fire dept, bring a nice big fat check. the equipment and training it pays for could save your life.

but at least the school district is paying for teachers. my school district just HAD to put Astroturf on the HS football field. my taxes are still through the roof. argh...

 

[Canadian Grunt]

I think the difference between private and public sector is a wash when you throw benefits at it. We have a local proposal to build a new elementary school for 500 kids. One of the School Board guys gave me in the info:

They would need 3 kindergarten teachers for the new school, who would be paid $60,000 a year plus health care for their entire family for $25 a month. Their max pension after 25 years of service is the average of their last 5 years salary at a 80% rate. The average salary of the principals in out school district is $117,000 a year plus full benefits.

I don't see how $60,000 a year is low pay, maybe someone could help me out with that. I will agree that compared to this, police officers and firefighters are woefully underpaid........


Our police chief only makes $87,000, $30,000 a year less than the principals. Plus, he gets to be on call 24 hours a day, but he does get a "car allowance"......

Ever work with kids? Spend a few days in a classroom and you will get a better idea of a good teachers worth.

Don't forget these kids are your countries future so you get what you pay for. Based on their education they will be making decisions when you are retired. I would hope you would want an enlightened population deciding your future fate, and would not hesitate to pay for their education.

 

[militaryman]

The annuity for Feds now is dramatically less than it was 25ish years ago. (CSRS to FERS change) But at least it is something.

The government is open to all. Come and join us if you want to work hard and make a difference. (we do not need slackers)

The Gov. SHOULD be a gold standard for industry as to the direction industry should be providing for Health Care Benefits Annuity Pensions, and Leave. The government SHOULD have very attractive compensation in order to attract the BEST and Brightest.

Who do you want handling your Social Security and Medicare claims and funds . Who do you want doing your IRS audit? Do you want a low wage disgruntled public servant? Who do you want going to war for you? Someone worried about the family making it back home on food stamps?

 

[FinanceDude]

there is no good formula for compensation for the dangers that police and firefighters face...

how about the volunteer firefighters in small towns like mine? these folks work for FREE, and are on call 24/7. the next time you see a fund raiser by your local vol fire dept, bring a nice big fat check. the equipment and training it pays for could save your life.

but at least the school district is paying for teachers. my school district just HAD to put Astroturf on the HS football field. my taxes are still through the roof. argh...

My next door neighbor is a volunteer firefighter. They don't do it for free, but the amount they are paid is trivial. I give him money for all the fundraisers they do........

 

[FinanceDude]

Ever work with kids? Spend a few days in a classroom and you will get a better idea of a good teachers worth.

Both my parents are retired teachers, so you can skip the lecture...............

Don't forget these kids are your countries future so you get what you pay for. Based on their education they will be making decisions when you are retired. I would hope you would want an enlightened population deciding your future fate, and would not hesitate to pay for their education.

I take it you are a teacher. That was YOUR career choice, but it seems bitter to take issue if some of us don't think that teachers are underpaid........

 

[FinanceDude]

The Gov. SHOULD be a gold standard for industry as to the direction industry should be providing for Health Care Benefits Annuity Pensions, and Leave. The government SHOULD have very attractive compensation in order to attract the BEST and Brightest.

So, you would like the govt to pay the same pay scale as private industry? If they did, the benefit package would change suibstantially, and you would start paying $400-$500 a month for health care, or more, and your pension would be gone. be careful what you wish for.......

Who do you want doing your IRS audit? Do you want a low wage disgruntled public servant?

I don't think the IRS i already full, they don't need any more employees like you described above.........

 

[youbet]

The Gov. SHOULD be a gold standard for industry as to the direction industry should be providing for Health Care Benefits Annuity Pensions, and Leave. The government SHOULD have very attractive compensation in order to attract the BEST and Brightest.

The problem is defining the "gold standard." My feeling is that systems that result in golden handcuffs for senior employees that want to leave and barriers to entry for new employees that want to join are bad.

Example: A veteran teacher is burned out (and it shows in performance) but stays with the teaching gig because he/she has too much time invested to give up on getting the pension and retiree health benefits. At the same time, a middle aged math major in private industry is willing to take the classes to get a teaching certificate and very much wants to teach math in underserved areas can't do so. The starting pay is pathetically low and only made worthwhile by staying 25 or more years to qualify for a nice pension and retiree health benefits. End result = burned out teacher stays and new, highly qualified and motivated teacher can't make the career switch into teaching.

The world economy has changed. Locking folks into pension plans and health care that depend on longevity with one employer, private or public, is no longer the way to go. We need portable pension plans and national health care that is not linked to employers so that folks are free to change careers synching employee talent and desires with employer needs.

Gov't needs to provide flexible benefits, less dependent on longevity and which allow graceful career changes, as an example to all of how retirement funding and medical benefits should be handled for EVERYONE.

 

[FinanceDude]

The problem is defining the "gold standard." My feeling is that systems that result in golden handcuffs for senior employees that want to leave and barriers to entry for new employees that want to join are bad.

Example: A veteran teacher is burned out (and it shows in performance) but stays with the teaching gig because he/she has too much time invested to give up on getting the pension and retiree health benefits. At the same time, a middle aged math major in private industry is willing to take the classes to get a teaching certificate and very much wants to teach math in underserved areas can't do so. The starting pay is pathetically low and only made worthwhile by staying 25 or more years to qualify for a nice pension and retiree health benefits. End result = burned out teacher stays and new, highly qualified and motivated teacher can't make the career switch into teaching.

The world economy has changed. Locking folks into pension plans and health care that depend on longevity with one employer, private or public, is no longer the way to go. We need portable pension plans and national health care that is not linked to employers so that folks are free to change careers synching employee talent and desires with employer needs.

Gov't needs to provide flexible benefits, less dependent on longevity and which allow graceful career changes, as an example to all of how retirement funding and medical benefits should be handled for EVERYONE.

Nice post, spot on. My parents never complained about anything related to teaching. They both went and got master's degrees to futher their education. Although they both paid their union dues for 30 years, they never boycotted anything or refused to work. The students who had my mom and dad were lucky to have people who cared so much.

One of the main reasons my mom quit teaching after she got tired of going into her own pocket to feed suburban kids breakfast..........

 

[youbet]

Nice post, spot on. My parents never complained about anything related to teaching. They both went and got master's degrees to futher their education. Although they both paid their union dues for 30 years, they never boycotted anything or refused to work. The students who had my mom and dad were lucky to have people who cared so much.

One of the main reasons my mom quit teaching after she got tired of going into her own pocket to feed suburban kids breakfast..........

Lots of teachers, like your folks, don't get burned out and do a good job right up to the end..... But some do burn out and it's sad the comp system locks them in. Leaving before snagging the brass ring of full pension and retiree health benefits means they put in the years of low starting salary without waiting to collect the offsetting benefits.

Even sader is that the typical comp system in public education locks out older folks who want to make a career change into teaching. The MegaCorp I retired from has downsized significantly in the past few years. Being in a highly technical industry, this meant lots of quantitative orientated folks hitting the streets. I was aware of a number who checked out the possibility of going into teaching math or science by taking a year off to get a MAT but changed their minds. They discovered they didn't have time to put in enough years to collect the backend loaded benefits that make the low starting pay worthwhile.