High Retirement Income Poll

[Luck_Club]

A little off-topic, but....

Finally... one thing I have shared with (M)(B)illionaires. Riding in a Gulfstream. Back in the travelling days my company's G5 was sometimes used for my travel to different parts of the US where we had corporate centers.

A taste of honey!

Green with envy. Business class and first class haven't touched my keister since our honeymoon, and I recall it as being a wonderful thing. I can only imagine the true travel luxury of private G5. The closest I ever came to that was selling cables to a window blind company that did custom interiors.

I did have two private plane flights albeit way downscale from a G5, and it was super cool on its on.

 

[NW-Bound]

I got to fly on a corporate jet only once. It was only because there were 5 or 6 of us to visit a subcontractor. The jet was available that day, and bean counters figured out that it was cheaper than paying for our commercial flight.

I do not even remember what jet it was, other than the interior was nothing luxurious. The only thing nice about it was we did not have to wait in a terminal to board. We hopped on, and the pilots taxied out right away. The same on the flight back. That no-waiting in a crowded terminal, even if you fly 1st-class, is something that is really nice about a private jet, even a small one.

Back on LBYM, I was practicing it when we were working. Our income, hence our means, was clearly defined then. Now, I don't know what my means is. Stock returns vary all over the place.

If I had more so that I could live on the meager dividend of the S&P of 1.9%, then I would be able to say that I were LBYM when I lived on, say 1.5%. But my WR is higher than that, so I am not LBYM now at all.

 

[Fedup]

I think you can sign for membership to fly jet around here. I forgot the amount but it was not excessive, not for the $30k a month income crowd.

 

[NW-Bound]

I looked it up recently. If I recall correctly, the smallest membership is $100K/year, which eats up almost 1/3 of the $30K/month already.

PS. OK, here it is.

For 2012, a single-year, 25-hour card for a Hawker 400XP jet starts at $119,900, plus taxes and some additional fees for fuel surcharges and insurance.

So, 25-hour total flight time for that much money? Is it even long enough to get me a round trip to Italy?

 

[Fedup]

I looked it up recently. If I recall correctly, the smallest membership is $100K/year, which eats up almost 1/3 of the $30K/month already.

PS. OK, here it is.

For 2012, a single-year, 25-hour card for a Hawker 400XP jet starts at $119,900, plus taxes and some additional fees for fuel surcharges and insurance.

So, 25-hour total flight time for that much money? Is it even long enough to get me a round trip to Italy?

I found this link. $10,000 for membership.JetSuiteX launches $29 private jet fares - TODAY.com

 

[NW-Bound]

OK. You do not have an entire jet to yourself and your family, and it's a charter flight.

Still, that is cheap. I wonder how they make money.

 

[Fedup]

OK. You do not have an entire jet to yourself and your family, and it's a charter flight.

Still, that is cheap. I wonder how they make money.

You can rent it for $8000 an hour or $300 per person for 30 if you want the whole plane to yourself.

 

[NW-Bound]

$8K/hr works out to $200K per 25 hours, and is perhaps comparable to the deal of $120K+extra cost for NetJets back in 2012. Not at all cheap.

Very expensive compared to a first-class RT from where I am to Rome on a commercial airline, which I just look up to be $13K for 2. And 25 hours is likely not long enough to do RT from the west coast to Rome.

 

[Fedup]

No wait line. No crowd.

 

[NW-Bound]

Yes, of course it is nice. But it is out of reach of the $30K/month class, from what I can see.

Well, maybe they can use it for domestic flights, but to use it for international flights requires one to be in an even higher class, the $100K+ per month.

By the way, I read the autobiography of a Wall St wheeling-and-dealing guy, actually a convicted crook. He said that when he flew to Switzerland on a private jet, he was surprised that he was not greeted by any custom or immigration agent. Same when he left. Just walked from the aircraft through a special terminal, and the same way back. The rich people have special privileges.

 

[Fedup]

Maybe this poll does not go high enough.

 

[Major Tom]

They can't put themselves in someone else's place, where maybe they actually have the money to spend, so why not spend it?

I think you hit the nail on the head. Whether it's a relatively wealthy person voicing amazement that anyone could live on what they consider an impossibly low income, or someone of modest means expressing amazement at what people "find to do with all that money", the inability to see things from another's perspective is the constant theme, I think.

In addition, not all of us express ourselves eloquently via the typed word. An expression of surprise at how another person could survive on so little, or spend so much, may be intended as a simple expression of wonder, but can come across as judgmental if not worded carefully.

It's a shame that some of the higher income folk here feel the need to be careful when talking about their income, spending habits, and lifestyle, so as not to attract envy or criticism. Many of us have to edit ourselves when talking about money to our friends, family, and colleagues in our real lives who may not be as fortunate. It's a great shame, IMO, when people feel the same way in a forum that is specifically focused on discussion of ER-related topics.

 

[NW-Bound]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Whether it's a relatively wealthy person voicing amazement that anyone could live on what they consider an impossibly low income, or someone of modest means expressing amazement at what people "find to do with all that money", the inability to see things from another's perspective is the constant theme, I think.

In addition, not all of us express ourselves eloquently via the typed word. An expression of surprise at how another person could survive on so little, or spend so much, may be intended as a simple expression of wonder, but can come across as judgmental if not worded carefully...

+1

I am impressed by people who can live on little, and I mean even less than the more frugal people here. I mentioned on another thread how some people actually live in a van by the river on $500/month. They have a Web site to tell how they do it. When I looked into RV'ing, I found sites like that, and enjoyed reading how people cope with their limited means.

In terms of spending more money, it is not hard. As anyone can find out, a fractional ownership of a jet can burn $1M a year easily. It is the making of the money that may be hard, not the spending, but that phase of working life is all over for us. We are retired, remember, and have to do with what we manage to save so far. Same as many here, I like to learn more about making money by passive investing, and I have picked up a bit from many posters.

 

[Travelwanted]

It's 0.5% of the population, as I mentioned.


As I said, I was surprised that so many surfed this forum. I would expect them to do other things decamillionaires do.

Well, apparently not. If I somehow joined their rank, I would continue to come here to BS.

1- Out of curiosity, what do you think ppl with investable assets of >10 million do that you don't do? I am not surprised at all people who have achieved that success would surface here and especially on bogleheads. Not being sarcastic - just curious on your thoughts.

2- I did not take the poll to mean one's SWR. I took it to mean income: pension, interest, dividend, capital gains, pt job etc. Defining income as SWR is very different.

 

[audreyh1]

1- Out of curiosity, what do you think ppl with investable assets of >10 million do that you don't do? I am not surprised at all people who have achieved that success would surface here and especially on bogleheads. Not being sarcastic - just curious on your thoughts.

2- I did not take the poll to mean one's SWR. I took it to mean income: pension, interest, dividend, capital gains, pt job etc. Defining income as SWR is very different.

I defined my income as my withdrawal rate. To me that is my retirement income.

My taxable income (or what is reported to the IRS) is currently higher. Working to get it closer to the same or lower.

I'm also curious about what these decamillionaires do that's different.

 

[Major Tom]

+1

I am impressed by people who can live on little, and I mean even less than the more frugal people here. I mentioned on another thread how some people actually live in a van by the river on $500/month. They have a Web site to tell how they do it. When I looked into RV'ing, I found sites like that, and enjoyed reading how people cope with their limited means.

Me too. I think that very few people would voluntarily choose to live on an income of $500/month (or a little more) if they had greater means but, given that this is the circumstance some find themselves in, it is interesting, and inspirational at times, to see how some folk rise creatively to the challenge.

In every walk of life, there seem to be the complainers, and the ones who put their best foot forward, whistle a happy tune, and decide to enjoy themselves. If I was told I only had $500/month to live on, I'd see it as a challenge - a chance to make some drastic changes, and see how much I was capable of. I'm not saying it would be fun all the time, but the best way to cope with any trying circumstance is to treat it as a challenge; a game even - and to whistle a happy tune as you're surmounting the odds.

I don't mean to diminish the difficulties that some folk face, but I really do believe that very often, the difference between having a horrible time, and a fun experience, lies in your attitude and demeanor.

One of the most memorable trips I had as a teen was a weekend at a Youth Hostel in Wales. We went on a 20 mile hike, during which time it rained heavily and constantly. We were all soaked to the bone, and feeling just a bit miserable. One or two of us tripped and fell in a puddle and, in that moment, realizing it was not possible to get any wetter, we started giggling and looking for puddles to roll around in. In that instant when it dawned on us that we couldn't get any wetter if we'd tried, we all made the decision to have as much fun as possible. It was a great weekend and, to cap it all off, I threw up in the back of the minibus on the way back to school, and became the butt of many a joke for several months after.

It's all in the attitude.

Having said all that, more money is always nicer.

 

[Fedup]

1- Out of curiosity, what do you think ppl with investable assets of >10 million do that you don't do? I am not surprised at all people who have achieved that success would surface here and especially on bogleheads. Not being sarcastic - just curious on your thoughts.

2- I did not take the poll to mean one's SWR. I took it to mean income: pension, interest, dividend, capital gains, pt job etc. Defining income as SWR is very different.

I don't include interest, dividend, capital gains. I don't spend those. In fact, I have to pay tax on those money. I think it's just a poll. How accurate? Who knows? At the end you have to live with what you have.

 

[Chuckanut]

Warren, what is your screen name? e.g. refused to pay for private jet so bought the company.

Sort of like Elon Musk. The Russians tried to cheat him when he wanted to buy older ICBMs to launch satellites, so instead, he started his own rocket company.

 

[ERD50]

...
In every walk of life, there seem to be the complainers, and the ones who put their best foot forward, whistle a happy tune, and decide to enjoy themselves. If I was told I only had $500/month to live on, I'd see it as a challenge - a chance to make some drastic changes, and see how much I was capable of. I'm not saying it would be fun all the time, but the best way to cope with any trying circumstance is to treat it as a challenge; a game even - and to whistle a happy tune as you're surmounting the odds. ...

It's all in the attitude.

Having said all that, more money is always nicer.

Yes, and sometimes I consider that, just for my own "putting things in perspective" thinking. I lead a somewhat upscale lifestyle in some ways, but if I suddenly found myself with a fraction of my net worth, what would I do? Moan, and cry and sit around in a blue funk? Maybe for a while. But then you get on with it, and I'm sure I could find ways to enjoy life on a more limited budget. There would be no more good seats at the Symphony and fancy meals and nice hotel week-ends, and while I enjoy those, there are other ways to have fun.

I'd seek out those opportunities and enjoy myself. The alternative stinks.

Some of that could be easier as a single I think. It's tougher to accommodate two views on things on a limited budget, and unlikely to find someone who would be my 'twin' in nearly everything. Now, DW and I can afford to do things separately as we need/want. Some of that might be a 'luxury' on a tight budget.

And it is worth repeating your final line of that post:

"Having said all that, more money is always nicer." ​

-ERD50

 

[audreyh1]

OK - I did know some decamilionaires back in the 90s - well in the upper 8 digits, and maybe one in the 9s.

• They spent money on lavish mansions and estates/grounds/garden.
• Some of them chartered flights for personal travel - international travel.
• They created trust funds for their (then minor) children.
• Some gave very generously - like millions of $ - to local endowments.
• Most of them continued to work until traditional retirement age, even past, because the company was their life mission and they were having so much fun at it.

 

[hesperus]

Don't be impressed, the poll I think, was directed to, or attracted responses from, the high income individuals. Self selected polls have little real meaning.

The selection > $10K/month represent 7/8th of the choices

-ERD50

+1
And there are a few of us 'tall poppies' here who will never miss an opportunity to share that fact I always find it interesting to see how open we all are here about our HNW, under the cover of anonymity. This is something that I never discuss with actual friends. Very private about it.

 

[scrabbler1]

I got to fly on a corporate jet only once. It was only because there were 5 or 6 of us to visit a subcontractor. The jet was available that day, and bean counters figured out that it was cheaper than paying for our commercial flight.

I do not even remember what jet it was, other than the interior was nothing luxurious. The only thing nice about it was we did not have to wait in a terminal to board. We hopped on, and the pilots taxied out right away. The same on the flight back. That no-waiting in a crowded terminal, even if you fly 1st-class, is something that is really nice about a private jet, even a small one.

I have flown on corporate jets twice in my life. Both times the flights were part of the Corporate Angels Network (CAN) which provides free flights for people who need to travel to other cities for cancer treatment. I don't have cancer, but my mom, whom I was flying with, did.

We were flying between Houston and NY/NJ both times. The first time, the Enron (remember them?) jet was deadheading from Houston to NY (JFK Airport) to pick up passengers flying in from Europe, so we were the only passengers on the plane. We had to find the isolated hangar at 5 AM which was off Houston's Intercontinental Airport (now called George Bush Airport?) It was flying while in your living room. We even flew low enough to see my mom's house and my apartment building before we landed. I then needed to describe to the car service where we were in the airport (I barely figured it out) but they picked us up okay and brought us home.

The second trip was a flight from Teterboro Airport in New Jersey to Houston. This time, we had some passengers on the plane and we engaged in some small talk but they were busy with each other with work. But they provided us with a ride to the rental car office which was helpful because the rental agency waived the 10% surcharge by us not needing to use their shuttle bus. The flight was again like flying from our living room.

 

[Danmar]

+1
And there are a few of us 'tall poppies' here who will never miss an opportunity to share that fact I always find it interesting to see how open we all are here about our HNW, under the cover of anonymity. This is something that I never discuss with actual friends. Very private about it.

Yes, agree. Never discuss specifics about money with friends. Anonymity is what makes these type of sites so good.

Sounds like you might be more open to hearing about finances from "regular poppies" rather than the taller variety? Have never heard something like, "boy I'm sure getting tired about hearing about that guy and his extreme LBYM lifestyle" on this site.

 

[Luck_Club]

I don't mean to diminish the difficulties that some folk face, but I really do believe that very often, the difference between having a horrible time, and a fun experience, lies in your attitude and demeanor.

It's all in the attitude.

Having said all that, more money is always nicer.

I think Ben Franklin said it best "A change of fortune hurts a wise man no more than a change of the moon."

 

[Luck_Club]

Yes, agree. Never discuss specifics about money with friends. Anonymity is what makes these type of sites so good.

Sounds like you might be more open to hearing about finances from "regular poppies" rather than the taller variety? Have never heard something like, "boy I'm sure getting tired about hearing about that guy and his extreme LBYM lifestyle" on this site.

+1

Always generalities with close friends. Acquaintances forgetta about it.

I have one rather close friend who is always very specific with his questions about how much we paid for things, or how much we earn. I've tiptoed around his questions for years. Saying things like it varies greatly, depends, not much, etc. He is the kind of pushy and can rub many people the wrong way. He is the kind of guy who in the middle of a gathering while everyone's bitching about some issue or problem they are having at work will say matter of factly "...you know I make a lot of money for what I do, I mean a lot of Money...". He has even thrown out figures a few times saying do you want to know what I make cause I'll tell you. Despite people saying we don't want to know he will throw out a figure anyways.

For years he's been jokingly calling me cheap. I promptly remind him I'm frugal their is a difference.

I think he is going to soil himself when we start our early retirement in 2019. He and his wife are 5 years our senior and he claims to want to never stop working. Though he wouldn't mind giving up the leaving on a Monday and returning on a Friday 50 something weeks a year.