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Old 04-30-2021, 11:20 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by MRG View Post
+1

With qualification. Ed Jones sells 6 fund families*. You can buy the same fund all by yourself and pay the load, looking at you AFS. Of course you save the 1% nonsense, avoid 6% fe loads, keep it for yourself. Now maybe Jones has some insights into how each managed fund will perform in the future. That is their value add.

*My understanding of the fund families choosen is for their ability to calculate and pay Ed Jones their commissions.
No one can buy the class A (this is what I have) without a front load fee.
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Old 04-30-2021, 11:21 AM   #22
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I do know the exact amount I contributed each of the years but not the increments for each year.
If you post those 14 or 15 numbers here I expect some kind soul will run the XIRR for you. Be sure also to indicate whether you were or are paying any loads. @PB4 is quite good at this stuff, for example.

I will predict, however, that Fast Eddy has not delivered competitive returns That is their history. Even if you have gotten lucky, I suggest you bail out of there just on general principals.

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Originally Posted by tdv2 View Post
A better way to put it is....In aggregate, actively managed funds lose to the market indexes by their fee's and expenses. Exactly what you would expect. ...
Yes. Here: Sharpe on active management: https://web.stanford.edu/~wfsharpe/a...ive/active.htm

It's important to understand, too, that "costs" are much bigger than the published expense ratios. I think most experts believe that the biggest, and best hidden, cost is market impact of trading. Every time a fund manager buys or sells a position, the market moves against him as he trades. I have seen estimates of one or two percent for this cost. And the larger the fund, the bigger the trades, the bigger the market impact, and the higher the cost. That is why low turnover is important. Typically only about a third of funds beat their benchmarks in any given year. It is nowhere near half. Read a few SPIVA reports to see: https://www.spglobal.com/spdji/en/spiva/#/

Finally, OP, when you look at a benchmark make sure you are looking at total return -- the difference between the nominal benchmark number at the beginning and end of the year PLUS the dividends and interest paid. The link posted by @MRG gets you total return data but it can be surprisingly hard to find. A lot of what you find is nominal return numbers, which are useless.
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Old 04-30-2021, 11:39 AM   #23
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I do know the exact amount I contributed each of the years but not the increments for each year.
? just make it 14 seperate investments and add it up

ie 2007 to 2021...6000 dollars = xxxxx
2008 to 2021...6000 dollars =xxxxx
and so on to
2020 to 2021...6000 dollars = xxxxx


......................................total yyyyy
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Old 04-30-2021, 11:58 AM   #24
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No one can buy the class A (this is what I have) without a front load fee.
Class A and C are the same fund, managed by the same people with a different fee structure. They charge 5.75% up front to join the club, offer a lower annual fee. There's a break even if you hold long enough. Jones generally finds a "great opportunity" for their customers before that happens.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/ans...d-b-shares.asp

Class C shares are a type of*mutual fund*shares. Mutual fund shares are divided up into three classes: Class A shares, Class B shares, and Class C shares. Each class of mutual fund shares is distinguished by their specific load fees and structures
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Old 04-30-2021, 12:58 PM   #25
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? just make it 14 seperate investments and add it up

ie 2007 to 2021...6000 dollars = xxxxx
2008 to 2021...6000 dollars =xxxxx
and so on to
2020 to 2021...6000 dollars = xxxxx


......................................total yyyyy
2007 - $1,000.

2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 - $5,000 each year.

2013 - $0.

2014 - $500.

2015 - $1,500.

2016 - $2,000.

2017 and 2018 - $5,500 each year.

2019 and 2020 - $6,000 each year.

Thus far, I have contributed $1,000 toward my 2021 contributions.
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Old 04-30-2021, 01:12 PM   #26
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2007 - $1,000.

2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 - $5,000 each year.

2013 - $0.

2014 - $500.

2015 - $1,500.

2016 - $2,000.

2017 and 2018 - $5,500 each year.

2019 and 2020 - $6,000 each year.

Thus far, I have contributed $1,000 toward my 2021 contributions.
that is $140,354.00
And you would have had to pay some taxes along the way that would lower that number. My gut says it should have been much higher than E jones....How risky have they been? maybe I made a math error?
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Old 04-30-2021, 01:20 PM   #27
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that is $140,354.00
And you would have had to pay some taxes along the way that would lower that number. My gut says it should have been much higher than E jones....How risky have they been? maybe I made a math error?
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Old 04-30-2021, 02:43 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by ducky911 View Post
that is $140,354.00
And you would have had to pay some taxes along the way that would lower that number. My gut says it should have been much higher than E jones....How risky have they been? maybe I made a math error?
@Ducky911 - I get S&P 500 yields $149,362, about 6% higher than the EJ fund. Screenshot attached.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg EJ vs 500.jpg (290.3 KB, 29 views)
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Old 04-30-2021, 02:50 PM   #29
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@Ducky911 - I get S&P 500 yields $149,362, about 6% higher than the EJ fund. Screenshot attached.
What if I did something like VTSAX only?
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Old 04-30-2021, 03:07 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by F.I.R.E User View Post
2007 - $1,000.

2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 - $5,000 each year.

2013 - $0.

2014 - $500.

2015 - $1,500.

2016 - $2,000.

2017 and 2018 - $5,500 each year.

2019 and 2020 - $6,000 each year.

Thus far, I have contributed $1,000 toward my 2021 contributions.
If I assume your $1,000 towards your 2021 contribution was made on 1/1/2021, assume you did the other contributions mid-year each year (July 1st), and assume your ending balance was as of 5/1/2021, then I get an XIRR of 13.06%.

If I use Yahoo adjusted closing prices for VTI for 7/1/2007 and 4/30/2021, I get an XIRR of 10.10%.

So if your numbers and my assumptions are accurate, you outperformed VTI during that time frame. This outperformance doesn't account for taxes or risk, which are harder to properly account for but probably puts you in the ballpark of VTI with somewhat more risk I would guess.

I note with interest that you haven't mentioned which funds you owned during this time frame, nor how much trading (aka churning) of your account EJ did.
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Old 04-30-2021, 03:31 PM   #31
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What if I did something like VTSAX only?
If you go to www.portfoliovisualizer.com you can compare VTSAX (Total US Market) to VFIAX (S&P 500) over any time period you wish. They track each other very closely and there's very little difference between the two.
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Old 04-30-2021, 03:34 PM   #32
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.....So if your numbers and my assumptions are accurate, you outperformed VTI during that time frame.......
@SecondCor521 - any idea why the results of the XIRR calculation would be so different than the method MRG suggested and numbers reported in my recent post?
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Old 04-30-2021, 03:44 PM   #33
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@SecondCor521 - any idea why the results of the XIRR calculation would be so different than the method MRG suggested and numbers reported in my recent post?
Either

(a) I messed up my XIRR calculations. This has happened before.

or, more likely,

(b) For my VTI XIRR calculation, I just looked up the starting value on 7/1/2007 and the ending value on 4/30/2021 (give or take a couple of days). This is not exactly apples to apples because that 10.10% number I came up with would mean putting in the full investment in 2007, not over the course of 14 years. The year-to-year variability in both the cash inflows by the OP into their investment and the annual rates of return of VTI probably account for the majority of the difference.

less likely,

(c) You're using S&P500 and I'm using VTI. They overlap about 80% or so but are not identical.
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Old 04-30-2021, 03:57 PM   #34
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.....

(b) ...... that 10.10% number I came up with would mean putting in the full investment in 2007, not over the course of 14 years. The year-to-year variability in both the cash inflows by the OP into their investment and the annual rates of return of VTI probably account for the majority of the difference.
...........
Thanks. Running some quick numbers in MRGs link... it appears the "putting full investment in 2008" followed by the large market correction in 2008 makes a significant difference and may account for the delta we are seeing.
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Old 04-30-2021, 04:43 PM   #35
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... My gut says it should have been much higher than E jones. ...
Yeah, me too. I would be astonished if Eddy produced those results for for a non-load class of shares. To see it with a big fat load skimmed off the OP's investments seems incredible.

@F.I.R.E User:

Was that account balance zero before you put in your first $$ in 2007?

Have any other funds been added to the account, like from a rollover?

Are your contribution amounts stated before the loads were deducted? -- IOW are you somehow paying the loads separately/outside those numbers?
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Old 04-30-2021, 04:51 PM   #36
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Yeah, me too. I would be astonished if Eddy produced those results for for a non-load class of shares. To see it with a big fat load skimmed off the OP's investments seems incredible.

@F.I.R.E User:

Was that account balance zero before you put in your first $$ in 2007?

Have any other funds been added to the account, like from a rollover?

Are your contribution amounts stated before the loads were deducted? -- IOW are you somehow paying the loads separately/outside those numbers?
All my funds are Class A. Starting front load was 5.75% but it’s lower now.
Account was $0 before 2007 because I started Roth IRA in 2007.
I did buy shares on similar funds on a non retirement account at EJ but we ended up transferring those funds to Roth IRA.
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Old 04-30-2021, 05:20 PM   #37
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... I did buy shares on similar funds on a non retirement account at EJ but we ended up transferring those funds to Roth IRA.
Is the value of those shares included in the $140K? If so you will have to subtract that value from the total in order to calculate a rate of return on your subsequent contributions.
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Old 05-15-2021, 01:19 PM   #38
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Here are my funds that I am invested in at EJ with American Funds Class A.

AMCPX - $24,238.92.

ANCFX - $12,290.45.

AGTHX - $18,720.41.

AIVSX - $12,248.02.

ANEFX - $18,709.76.

ANWPX - $10,024.39.

SMCWX - $28,535.89.

AWSHX - $12,617.62

Why am I invested in so many funds?
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Old 05-15-2021, 01:23 PM   #39
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Is the value of those shares included in the $140K? If so you will have to subtract that value from the total in order to calculate a rate of return on your subsequent contributions.
What do you mean?
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Old 05-15-2021, 05:23 PM   #40
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Here are my funds that I am invested in at EJ with American Funds Class A.

AMCPX - $24,238.92.

ANCFX - $12,290.45.

AGTHX - $18,720.41.

AIVSX - $12,248.02.

ANEFX - $18,709.76.

ANWPX - $10,024.39.

SMCWX - $28,535.89.

AWSHX - $12,617.62

Why am I invested in so many funds?
You've probably delegated investment authority on your account to your advisor at the firm. If you have done so, and they are not a fiduciary, then they can do this. Even if they're a fiduciary, they might be able to do this.

That advisor will put you in multiple funds for several reasons:

1. It makes investing look hard, so you're less likely to take control back.

2. They also might be able to convince you to pay account management fees.

3. They can move your money around more frequently, resulting in higher fees (transaction fees, trading fees, front end loads) to them.

4. It gives the appearance that you are broadly diversified.

5. It makes it harder for you to benchmark your performance, which means they can hide their fees and underperformance from you.

Probably more, but those are the ones I can think of offhand.
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