How far below your means?

I just read The Wealthy Barber and followed the advice. Hey, I see that a sequel is in the works.....

After 21 years...The Wealthy Barber Returns - thestar.com

The four most expensive words in the English language? “While we’re at it ...”
I don't agree with this advice. The solution to excessive spending is not to cease to want anything that requires spending, but rather not to spend too much.
 
I have learned over the years what works well for me, and I have learned over the years that what works well for other people and they are not necessarily the same. The idea that you first set a goal of early retirement, then decide on a strategy to reach your goal, then devise the tactics to implement that strategy is logical and compelling, but it never worked for me. I had a vague idea that I wanted to retire early, I knew that would involve saving and investing in some way, so I worked out what I thought I could reasonably save from each paycheck. I measured how much I was saving, I monitored how much I was spending and how happy or unhappy I was with that level of spending. I spent more if I was too unhappy. I challenged myself to save more if was happy enough. Every once it a while I look at my pile and try to see if it will help me reach my goal.

Eventually my savings piled up and I needed to learn how to invest them. I made a few mistakes, read some books, made a few more mistakes, tried a few more ideas, some better than others, and finally settled on a mostly passive approach that I can ignore for long periods of time and still do well with. Once it a while I check to see if it looks like it is heading towards that goal.

This is kind of bottom up instead of top down, and I acknowledge it focuses first on tactics and not on goals. When I try to do it the other way around I quickly get frustrated and want to give up on the whole idea. So I go with what works for me. Once in a while I invent a metric like %saving of gross or %savings of net and see how I'm doing. Mostly comparing against my previous self, since it is hard to find these kinds of numbers for others. Maybe look at networth by age a little. It's hard to compare much of this. What about people with pensions (much higher than what I spend in a year), they make me so jealous. That's not helpful, so I go back to managing the tactics, since that's mostly what I can control.

Probably this means that I am missing some bigger picture idea, such as am I really maximizing my economic productivity in my chosen career, or should I be trying to get into something else. Too complicated.

On the other hand, this has also meant that when a catastrophe struck, like very bad investment losses, bad layoff or horrible divorce, my plan easily absorbed the changes and kept moving forward. I think if I was more focused on being at 95% of my goal and suddenly I was at 40% it would have been much more devastating, at least morale wise, and would have made it harder to keep trying.

LBYM to me means comfortably living, somewhere below my means. I want to manage wisely to make the most of the means I do have, but I still want to live comfortably. Finding the right balance between what I want and all the things I could have is something everyone probably has to find for themselves. I do not think LBYM means living as far below your means as possible, nor that it should be competitive (unless you want it to be, I guess, I don't want to do that myself). I want to be comfortable now and retire early and comfortably then. I'm okay if it takes me a little longer than it might have, if I get to be comfortable enough along the way. All the metrics that work for me to manage this are mostly based on tactics, not so much on goals, except for total portfolio size in relation to expenses wanted from it.
 
if a person has zero debt and $1 in their wallet they are living below their means

beyond that, everyone is going to be different. I could conceivably keep spending to $500 per month, but that is not a tradeoff I care to make. So I keep spending under $2 000 per month and everything else goes into savings and investments. Unfortunately, after taxes it isn't 20% (but that just means if someone nets $4 000 per month I see kids as one of the very few possible reasons why they couldn't be saving 50%)
 
We can surely just declare that we all need to live below our means and we can use estimates from some of the better calculators to figure out how to get there, but it is valuable and interesting to see how people *really* do this. Obviously more saving is better, but I don't think that most of the people here are the kind of folks who budget their toothpaste consumption.

Personally I use Quicken and a hand-crafted Excel tracking spreadsheet. The latter has 10 worksheets, one of which is a 464 row by 52 column retirement calculator which uses about 45 different input values (inflation, return rate on cash, etc.) and calculates my financial independence to the nearest month.

This spreadsheet also enables me to:

1. Play "what if" scenarios pretty easily.
2. Decide on job/career related questions -- for example, I've pretty much decided not to go to law school because I know I'll be FI fast enough in my current job; if my FI date had been 10 years in the future I may have decided differently.
3. Have more confidence in my target FI date -- it has been holding fairly steady in the 45-47 year old range for the past few years.
4. Provide feedback on my behavior -- if I spend $2000 more on something, then that pushes out my FI date somewhat. Then I can judge if it was worth it to me to have spent that. Similarly I can decide if the additional deprivation of, say, eating oatmeal every day is worth it given that it accelerates my FI date by 2 weeks (or whatever).

I don't budget my toothpaste consumption but I have tracked my income, spending, assets and liabilities nearly daily and pretty much to the penny for probably a dozen years now.

Anyway, that's my answer to how I "really" do this.

2Cor521
 
The appropriate equation, spherical chickens notwithstanding, is:

O*M*G = W*T*F
 
I define LBYM simply as if one spends less than what's budgeted (eh...you do have a budget, right?) than you are practicing living below your means.

Of course, that's assuming you were honest when creating your budget :)
 
Hello SecondCor521 - Is there a place where we could compare Excel files / models please ? I am not a finance expert and my excel model seems to be very, very complex. Not sure if I got all my model assumptions right.

Personally I use Quicken and a hand-crafted Excel tracking spreadsheet.
2Cor521
 
Alright... break it up.... stop kickin' the poor guy and step back. Your in my way... I can't get to him to whack him with the nightstick! :police:

Just jokin' :greetings10:

LBYM - is just what it states.... but the goals and outcome may be different. For some... they might achieve FI. Others (at the lower income levels)... it might just enable them to control spending and build an emergency fund (live well and survive certain crisis)


It is not a formula.... it is a vague description of spending level.
 
I have learned over the years what works well for me, and I have learned over the years that what works well for other people and they are not necessarily the same.

That's about where we are with it. After my divorce and buying a house by myself in 1985, for the first few years I was merely treading water, just keeping a few $k in savings in case the furnace died or the roof leaked. But I was optimistic that a house payment just under $900 would eventually be a joke (in that area) and five years later I knew people with house payments three times that. While dating DW we ate a lot of spaghetti dinners at home while watching a rented movie, and if I'd worked some overtime maybe a bottle of nice wine.

But all through that there was the sense that, as DW put it when we were dating "The trouble with loans is that they always want you to pay it back. Plus interest." Gotta admire a girl with that sense. (An aside - why do so many people not understand that?)

Fourteen years later DW and I were putting 48% of income into savings, in part because we didn't want a 2nd home, RV, boat with a galley, didn't have a strong desire for Pennsylvania House furniture, etc.

Even now, the bulk of the income (~75%) from my job is going to savings, as I know it's contract work and when I decide to quit the income stops. But we splurge now and then - I just ordered a pricey computer monitor for photo editing, DW enjoys entertaining her nieces - and we feel free to dine out more than we would without the "unplanned for" income.

And when I do quit we will adjust our spending accordingly. Or maybe DW will get a job that will keep me in the style to which I would like to become accustomed.:LOL:
 
LBYM to me means comfortably living, somewhere below my means. I want to manage wisely to make the most of the means I do have, but I still want to live comfortably. Finding the right balance between what I want and all the things I could have is something everyone probably has to find for themselves. I do not think LBYM means living as far below your means as possible, nor that it should be competitive (unless you want it to be, I guess, I don't want to do that myself). I want to be comfortable now and retire early and comfortably then. I'm okay if it takes me a little longer than it might have, if I get to be comfortable enough along the way.

This sums it up just about perfectly for me.
 
...didn't have a strong desire for Pennsylvania House furniture, etc.
I hope not, since all the new trash is being made in China :cool: ...

Watch for WallyWorld sales; I'm sure they will start to market the brand at that location, someday...
 
This is an except from Scott Burns recent article: Some Choices Will Drive Us Straight Over a Cliff - Registered Investment Advisor

"....it is the idea that we try to use our income in ways that will allow us to maintain a stable and reliable standard of living throughout life. All of it. This means we will save money when we have more of it, so we will avoid the experience of having less of it later. Basically, all of us try to arrange our lives so we can avoid a sudden drop in our standard of living."

It sounds like most of the people on this board follow that philosophy in a variety of ways. The important part is not so much all the details we used to get to a comfortable retirement - it's that we got to a comfortable retirement. Money management (or lack of) is so very personal. What works for one person may be inconceivable for another.
 
Hello SecondCor521 - Is there a place where we could compare Excel files / models please ? I am not a finance expert and my excel model seems to be very, very complex. Not sure if I got all my model assumptions right.

I wouldn't mind sharing, except my model is very particular to my situation. If you're a single father of a 15/11/9 year old kids going to college later and are paying child support and have stock options in my company, it would work for you...otherwise not so much. It also has all of my personal data in it.

The trick is to just start with a small Excel model and then make it more complicated and personalized over time.

I don't really use anything more complicated than an array formula, and that I only use in one spot. The rest of it is just, in essence, take last month's 401k balance, add my expected contribution to it, then increase by my estimated rate of return = this month's 401(k) balance.

Feel free to PM me with specific questions if you like, though....

2Cor521
 
People seem to have taken my original post in a number of distinctly different ways.
It's always fun to watch a poster try to get this [-]cat herd[/-] discussion board to agree on a definition of... just about anything.

There are many ways to get to a state of financial security and I am interested in the common themes. We can surely just declare that we all need to live below our means and we can use estimates from some of the better calculators to figure out how to get there, but it is valuable and interesting to see how people *really* do this. Obviously more saving is better, but I don't think that most of the people here are the kind of folks who budget their toothpaste consumption. A lot of people here apparently own second homes.
I think LBYM is the line where your spending finally matches your values and goals... frugality without deprivation.

A side issue is that when the goal has been achieved, the frugality isn't easy to shut off. It makes no economic sense for me to bend over and pick up a penny on the sidewalk. Emotionally, though, found money is a real thrill.

As has been mentioned, there are sustainability motives behind LBYM & frugality. We have no apparent economic reason to compost or vermipost or recycle but we enjoy it anyway. Good thing, too, because the economic reason is pretty compelling for all that it's difficult to identify.
 
Being a physicist I appreciate all the vector calculus.........but I must, once again, point to literature as the place to find the ultimate LBYM philosophy.
Just focus on Mr Micawber in David Copperfield and you will discover how to achieve financial security and understand the consequences if you don't practice LBYM.

FYI I save 50% of my gross, 25% goes to the mortgage, leaving 25% to cover taxes, living expenses etc. I'm looking at ER between age 50 and 55 so the numbers quoted in this thread look to be pretty good.
 
It's always fun to watch a poster try to get this [-]cat herd[/-] discussion board to agree on a definition of... just about anything.


.

This does seem like a pretty tough topic for us to agree on, even if we understood the question.

I do wonder if it is necessary to have an innate sense of frugality to really LBYM? By this I mean there are somethings that I won't buy even though I could easily afford them. I know there are other who feel the same way.

For example my 3+ year old cell phone recently died. Being somewhat of a gadget guy I was pretty tempted to get an smart phone like an Android. However, I decide that between the cost of the phone the $20/month extra charge and the apps I would get, the phone would cost $1,000 over two years. While some of the functionality (Navigation, price comparison scanning) is unique to a cellphone, the vast majority (checking facebook, stock quotes, or email) can be achieved with a PC,which I am seldom more than a few hours away from. Now I can easily afford the extra $500/year but my frugality resulted in spending $40 for a new dumber phone. Now if my net worth was north of $10 million I probably would spring for the more expensive phone.


On the other hand there are somethings that I'd never purchase no matter what my wealth, because I think they are inherently overpriced. I think Rolexes look pretty nice, and I might even buy one for the very rare occasion when I need a dress watch if they cost a couple of hundred bucks. However,at $5K+ I'd never buy one even if I was billionaire.

Basically, my tastes and desire never kept pace with my affluence so LYBM was never particularly difficult for me.
 
I do wonder if it is necessary to have an innate sense of frugality to really LBYM? By this I mean there are somethings that I won't buy even though I could easily afford them. I know there are other who feel the same way.
I find myself getting annoyed with the prospect of spending $675/year for analog cable TV service or $1200/year for water/sewage service, but somehow both those numbers are OK for the right size/quality of longboard...
 
(snip)For example my 3+ year old cell phone recently died. Being somewhat of a gadget guy I was pretty tempted to get an smart phone like an Android. However, I decide that between the cost of the phone the $20/month extra charge and the apps I would get, the phone would cost $1,000 over two years. (snip)
I sympathize. I was hankering for an iPad until someone mentioned that home broadband access might cost around sixty bucks a month. That's $720 a year, which at a 3% WR means I'd need an extra $24K in my portfolio—a little more than a year's worth of retirement fund contributions—to cover the support costs. Would I like to buy myself an iPad? Sure! Enough to delay my retirement a year? Naahhh.
 
I sympathize. I was hankering for an iPad until someone mentioned that home broadband access might cost around sixty bucks a month. That's $720 a year, which at a 3% WR means I'd need an extra $24K in my portfolio—a little more than a year's worth of retirement fund contributions—to cover the support costs. Would I like to buy myself an iPad? Sure! Enough to delay my retirement a year? Naahhh.

This is something I struggle with. I have a perfect phone which cost me $10 and makes and receive calls. Why should I buy a 300$ phone and spend 30-40 months. Are smart phones so useful? I guess as Internet is a need now, someday smart phones may be. I also don't understand why one has to pay for incoming SMS and calls, this is not under my control. I thinks it's free in most of the world,
 
I sympathize. I was hankering for an iPad until someone mentioned that home broadband access might cost around sixty bucks a month. That's $720 a year, which at a 3% WR means I'd need an extra $24K in my portfolio—a little more than a year's worth of retirement fund contributions—to cover the support costs. Would I like to buy myself an iPad? Sure! Enough to delay my retirement a year? Naahhh.
+1, amazing isn't it. I use the same calc to talk myself out of purchases, even small ones like your example.

I sold our boat last month after 21 years as a boat owner. In retrospect it was crazy when I think of what it cost us, no matter how much we enjoyed it. We could "afford it," but it wasn't worth it...
 
East Texas-Great post. Trick is to get it right. Lot's of forecasting the future which can be difficult. An even lifestyle over an extended period is really the goal. The level of that lifestyle will depend on many things. LBYM is (in almost all cases) a necessary part of it during the accumulation phase.
 
Are smart phones so useful? I guess as Internet is a need now, someday smart phones may be.
When my 20-something nephew and his girlfriend visited last August (before our daughter left for college), we all spent a lot of time sitting around the livingroom conversing on various topics. Within a few minutes of starting a conversation, when someone else was talking, he'd quietly pull out his Android phone and glance down at the screen while pushing a few buttons. My reflex reaction was "How rude to be checking messages in the middle of a conversation" but of course I kept my mouth shut.

I'm glad I didn't say anything-- he was going online to look up the answers to the questions we'd been discussing. Within a few minutes, usually while the conversation was still on the same topic, he'd have the answers. It was like having a reference book or a laptop right in the middle of the discussion.

He also taught our daughter how to really use her iPhone map app. She'd never really bothered to learn to read a map, and she trusted everything that her magic phone told her...
 
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