Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-16-2021, 10:53 AM   #41
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 382
My experience with LTC has not been great.

DW and I signed up for CalPers policy while we were in our 40s. They wanted $2,200 per year for the two of us - as I recall, it gave $100/day and capped at $150K each. They said the prices would never change. After two years, the price went up or the payout went down, my choice. The next year, we got the same notice. Year 5 I cancelled it, because they were dropping the payout again. Since then, we decided to self-insure, and have $300K+ set aside for this.

In-Laws, have kept their plan. $200/day up to $300K each. It cost them about $3,100 per year. The original insurer went bankrupt, and now it is handled by a new provider. The biggest problem we have run into is they get to decide "how much care" you actually need. So they only pay out $x dollars per hour, up to $200/day. They also get to decide what qualifies for reimbursement. Long story short, they are currently paying out $150K per year, but only getting reimbursed for $20K. Some of that is their own doing, but my point is that there are a lot of care costs that aren't covered by insurance, whereas if you can do the self insurance, you can spend the money how you see fit.
Dalmore is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-16-2021, 11:20 AM   #42
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Koolau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 10,976
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalmore View Post
My experience with LTC has not been great.

DW and I signed up for CalPers policy while we were in our 40s. They wanted $2,200 per year for the two of us - as I recall, it gave $100/day and capped at $150K each. They said the prices would never change. After two years, the price went up or the payout went down, my choice. The next year, we got the same notice. Year 5 I cancelled it, because they were dropping the payout again. Since then, we decided to self-insure, and have $300K+ set aside for this.

In-Laws, have kept their plan. $200/day up to $300K each. It cost them about $3,100 per year. The original insurer went bankrupt, and now it is handled by a new provider. The biggest problem we have run into is they get to decide "how much care" you actually need. So they only pay out $x dollars per hour, up to $200/day. They also get to decide what qualifies for reimbursement. Long story short, they are currently paying out $150K per year, but only getting reimbursed for $20K. Some of that is their own doing, but my point is that there are a lot of care costs that aren't covered by insurance, whereas if you can do the self insurance, you can spend the money how you see fit.
I'm sure you are accurate in your experiences. Our policy (and I think most LTCi) is set up to either cover or not - two functions of daily life must be compromised. If it covers, it's so much per day. Ours has an inflation rider and IIRC coverage lasts for 4 years. Obviously, yours is structured differently. I'm sorry you have had a bad experience. Once again, I am attempting to cover what would possibly destroy our FIRE plan. I certainly hope we don't need it.
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -

Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
Koolau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2021, 11:39 AM   #43
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posts: 1,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingo View Post
Thanks tor the input. I had not considered the charity angle and will look into it . Having the ability to lock into a fixed price and cover both of us will probably be the overwhelming factor to go with them. It will certainly give us a good base coverage that we could supplement with other sources.

The discount is $30,000 to pay in a lump sum which is the way I would proceed. I am so naive concerning these matters and just needed to hear from someone that has been down this road.
Dingo, I would suggest you talk to a broker who handles not only One America hybrids, but also other LTC products and companies. Explain you have no heir to benefit from the life insurance death benefit, and your concerns whether you might get better coverage on the LTC side without worrying about death benefit. Perhaps OneAmerica has ways to handle that particular issue. Or perhaps your broker can suggest other products that would benefit you better on the LTC side. (One broker who is knowledgeable is at ltcpartners).
__________________
Dreams Worth Dreaming are Dreams Worth Planning For. I Spent a Career Planning for Early Retirement.
RetireeRobert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2021, 12:03 PM   #44
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Tampa
Posts: 9,826
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalmore View Post
My experience with LTC has not been great.

DW and I signed up for CalPers policy while we were in our 40s. They wanted $2,200 per year for the two of us - as I recall, it gave $100/day and capped at $150K each. They said the prices would never change. After two years, the price went up or the payout went down, my choice. The next year, we got the same notice. Year 5 I cancelled it, because they were dropping the payout again. Since then, we decided to self-insure, and have $300K+ set aside for this.

In-Laws, have kept their plan. $200/day up to $300K each. It cost them about $3,100 per year. The original insurer went bankrupt, and now it is handled by a new provider. The biggest problem we have run into is they get to decide "how much care" you actually need. So they only pay out $x dollars per hour, up to $200/day. They also get to decide what qualifies for reimbursement. Long story short, they are currently paying out $150K per year, but only getting reimbursed for $20K. Some of that is their own doing, but my point is that there are a lot of care costs that aren't covered by insurance, whereas if you can do the self insurance, you can spend the money how you see fit.
Yup, my father has 2 LTC policies and is still paying out over 100k net yearly.
__________________
TGIM
Dtail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2021, 04:41 PM   #45
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet View Post
Interesting tidbit syd03. At first glance, the idea that a mediocre LTC policy would be looked at more favorably by a care provider that cash coming from a well funded "self-insured" stash seems to not pass the common sense test. I wonder why that is? I'd think that someone who is conservatively self-insured and would be paying cash would be welcomed by good facilities.

You're correct, it doesn't pass the common sense test. Unfortunately we've seen it first hand on three occasions now.


That really doesn't matter. Only what you personally would have done has any bearing on the matter. Or are you saying that you didn't trust yourself to plan and execute a self-funding scheme?
No, what I'm saying is that the cost of a private room in my state is currently $135K per year. If you are 50 now and in need of care at age 90 the annual cost will be significantly more. If you happen to spend a couple years in a home, more yet. Had an uncle who planned to self insure three years ago with $130K earmarked. His thought process was that he'd never be in a home more than 6 months if at all. He ended up in a home for a little over 2.2 years. In year two he was forced to downgrade to a home I wouldn't want to spend a week in.

All I was trying to advocate is to plan accordingly, and I'm sure most forum members do. We could self insure, but I'd rather pass that money down. The way I look at it is that I paid a small fraction for a single premium policy of what even a year in nursing home would cost now, let alone 30 or 40 years from now. I feel comfortable knowing that coverage will be there. Again, every one has a different take. I'm sure you planned accordingly, but perhaps not every member here has.
syd03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2021, 06:13 PM   #46
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,519
I bought into the Federal Governmentís Long-Term Care Partners plan at age 58 or 59 when eligibility was extended to military retirees. There have been two rate increases since then. There was also an option to keep payments level but reduce or forego the built-in inflation increases going forward. You could also leave the plan and have all premiums thus far paid refunded. I opted to reduce/forego inflation increases. I am 76 now and neither my wife nor I have needed the insurance, for which Iím very thankful.
__________________
friar1610
friar1610 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2021, 06:29 PM   #47
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
skyking1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 1,999
We are not LTC nor life insurance customers.
__________________
Class of 2023
skyking1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2021, 11:30 AM   #48
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Flyover America
Posts: 675
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingo View Post
I am considering a policy like this through One America . We would probably pay the full amt up front and receive a discount on the price. I canít see too many downsides.

We are not concerned with a large payout from the death benefit to our heirs since we donít have kids. We would be willing to take a lesser amt or forgo the payout altogether if we could get a lower upfront price. The policy has the chassis of a life insurance policy so I recognize that this is probably wishful thinking.

As far as I can tell the company is stable . I am having trouble pulling the trigger for some reason. We would move $150,000 from the IRA to fund it ( no tax implications)and be eligible for a $5729/mth benefit lifetime benefit each for me and my spouse. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
I purchased a One America Policy with accelerator and 3% inflation rider. I think the 20 year pay vs everything upfront may be good for flexibility as if things change (for example: government funded LTC, etc...) over those 20 years you can cancel the rider. There are some other interesting options similar to One America that have cash reimbursement model so do not need to show any receipts for home care and third party care.
capjak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2021, 11:31 AM   #49
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Flyover America
Posts: 675
My mom spent 6 years in assisted living and 6 months in nursing home that made me look into LTCi. The biggest risk is going in at a young age or needing nursing care for a long time.
capjak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2021, 03:00 PM   #50
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Golden sunsets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,394
I also wanted to mention that our policy covers in home care payouts. Our agent mentioned that for those who need LTC, but who haven't purchased it, it is common to see wives, whose husbands need the care providing the care themselves often with debilitating effects, in order to conserve funds.
__________________
"Luck favors the prepared mind"
Pasteur
Golden sunsets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2021, 03:56 PM   #51
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 12,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by syd03 View Post
Had an uncle who planned to self insure three years ago with $130K earmarked. His thought process was that he'd never be in a home more than 6 months if at all. He ended up in a home for a little over 2.2 years. In year two he was forced to downgrade to a home I wouldn't want to spend a week in.
Indeed. Of course it's your planning, not your uncle's, that matters to you. If you don't trust yourself to understand and properly prepare to be self-insured for LTC, the consequences could be not to your liking.
Quote:
We could self insure, but I'd rather pass that money down.
Well, you'll pass down more or perhaps less than if you self-insured depending on how much LTC eventually costs you vs the premiums you pay.
Quote:
The way I look at it is that I paid a small fraction for a single premium policy of what even a year in nursing home would cost now, let alone 30 or 40 years from now.
This sounds too good to be true syd03. A small fraction of $130k is, say, $50k. For that you get unlimited, lifetime LTC coverage? What is the actual amount you paid? What are the LTC and life insurance benefits?
Quote:
I'm sure you planned accordingly, but perhaps not every member here has.
The statistics say we're over-prepared. But that's sort of a universal trend on this forum. You know, belts and suspenders kind of folks!

But, having said all that, we're still evaluating Type A CCRC's. We're not against the idea of insuring for LTC in some form, even though we can self-insure, but we're not sure of which path to follow. So many pros and cons........
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2021, 03:59 PM   #52
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 12,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden sunsets View Post
I also wanted to mention that our policy covers in home care payouts. Our agent mentioned that for those who need LTC, but who haven't purchased it, it is common to see wives, whose husbands need the care providing the care themselves often with debilitating effects, in order to conserve funds.
It sounds like a reaffirmation that it's the folks who have too much for Medicaid but not enough to self-insure that are the ones who most need to consider some form of LTCI.
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2021, 05:01 PM   #53
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 6,975
This is a great educational thread. We are 65 and 62. We have access to Federal Employee LTCi which we think may be more stable than other traditional plans. John Hancock is the provider but I think it goes out to bid every x yrs. Weíre currently reviewing hybrid plans from Mass Mutual and NY Life through Fidelity. The hybrid plans look like no brainwashing except we donít really need the life insurance. We asked about the combined coverage with spouse but Fido doesnít offer it.

It is most likely we will self insure but at least it should be an informed choice. I looked at the cost of my employer sponsored plans back in my early 50ís and they always seemed very expensive with no protection from excessive premium increases. I suspect the newer hybrid policies are also mis-priced but the risk is to the provider.
__________________
...with no reasonable expectation for ER, I'm just here auditing the AP class.Retired 8/1/15.
jazz4cash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2021, 06:48 PM   #54
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Western NC
Posts: 3,640
Wish I could go back a couple of decades & buy one of those paid-up, fully portable LTC policies it seems many employers offered.

Seems like the traditional policies today are simply pre-paying for later benefits.

Hybrid policies...make sure they're not based on a universal life (UL) policy unless it's guaranteed UL.

Back in my 40s my agent tried to get me to exchange a plain-vanilla whole life policy from my childhood to a hybrid UL with LTC rider, but under the guaranteed illustration the policy would have blown up as early as my mid-60s.

In my unfortunate personal experience UL policies always collapse to the guarantee & blow up (premiums become unaffordable)...got stuck paying for a couple of UL policies (I didn't pick them) that self-destructed in that way after 25-30 years.
ncbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2021, 07:58 PM   #55
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 6,975
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncbill View Post
Wish I could go back a couple of decades & buy one of those paid-up, fully portable LTC policies it seems many employers offered.

Seems like the traditional policies today are simply pre-paying for later benefits.

Hybrid policies...make sure they're not based on a universal life (UL) policy unless it's guaranteed UL.

Back in my 40s my agent tried to get me to exchange a plain-vanilla whole life policy from my childhood to a hybrid UL with LTC rider, but under the guaranteed illustration the policy would have blown up as early as my mid-60s.

In my unfortunate personal experience UL policies always collapse to the guarantee & blow up (premiums become unaffordable)...got stuck paying for a couple of UL policies (I didn't pick them) that self-destructed in that way after 25-30 years.
I'd like to get some clarification here.....the NY Life hybrid policy through Fidelity is based on UL, (don't know if it is guaranteed UL). It is a one time premium. The life insurance benefit is more than the premium.
__________________
...with no reasonable expectation for ER, I'm just here auditing the AP class.Retired 8/1/15.
jazz4cash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2021, 08:02 PM   #56
Confused about dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2
It has come in handy. My mom has one paid up and I just had to move her into long term care assisted living. It is a great plan that pays a max of 5k up to 5 years.

btw, how do you create new threads? I'm just venturing more into this website
Mymichele6 is offline   Reply With Quote
I agree
Old 09-18-2021, 07:36 AM   #57
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Athens Ga
Posts: 229
I agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by RetireeRobert View Post
Dingo, I would suggest you talk to a broker who handles not only One America hybrids, but also other LTC products and companies. Explain you have no heir to benefit from the life insurance death benefit, and your concerns whether you might get better coverage on the LTC side without worrying about death benefit. Perhaps OneAmerica has ways to handle that particular issue. Or perhaps your broker can suggest other products that would benefit you better on the LTC side. (One broker who is knowledgeable is at ltcpartners).
I am in the he process of doing that now. That seems reasonable. Thanks.
dingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2021, 09:07 AM   #58
Confused about dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Ga
Posts: 4
I was looking at LTC products in 2019. The only bright spot of Covid is I found a solution that isnít zero risk, but it also improves quality of life in the meantime.

1. Eat single ingredient food. I.e. unprocessed
2. Walk > 7500 steps a day
3. Strength train to build muscle. Never too old for this.
4. Get all the sun and nature your body can tolerate.
5. Nutrient testing at your physical to supplement deficiencies.

Finally, enjoy your better life.
bucktheherd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2021, 09:45 AM   #59
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Western NC
Posts: 3,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz4cash View Post
I'd like to get some clarification here.....the NY Life hybrid policy through Fidelity is based on UL, (don't know if it is guaranteed UL). It is a one time premium. The life insurance benefit is more than the premium.
Check the guaranteed illustration...does the policy stay in force even with no additional premiums?

In my particular case, even rolling over the cash value from my WL policy AND paying an additional $10k/year premiums for another decade under the guaranteed illustration the policy ran out of money sometime in my 60s and required additional premium payments to stay in force.

Again, outside of the above I got stuck paying for a couple of UL policies that "blew up" in that way between 25 & 30 years after issue.
ncbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2021, 11:06 AM   #60
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 6,975
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncbill View Post
Check the guaranteed illustration...does the policy stay in force even with no additional premiums?

In my particular case, even rolling over the cash value from my WL policy AND paying an additional $10k/year premiums for another decade under the guaranteed illustration the policy ran out of money sometime in my 60s and required additional premium payments to stay in force.

Again, outside of the above I got stuck paying for a couple of UL policies that "blew up" in that way between 25 & 30 years after issue.


Thanks. I should have the detailed quotes to review so just need to find the time and focus.
__________________
...with no reasonable expectation for ER, I'm just here auditing the AP class.Retired 8/1/15.
jazz4cash is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lump sum life insurance with LTC insurance rider tmm99 Health and Early Retirement 1 07-22-2013 02:17 PM
Anybody Here Own LTC (Long Term Care) FinanceDude Life after FIRE 109 07-11-2011 10:22 AM
Long-term care (LTC) and LTC insurance (Updated 2020) Nords Early Retirement FAQs 0 10-24-2007 11:02 AM
How Many Homes Do You Own That You Live In? pasttense Life after FIRE 20 07-07-2007 09:13 AM
Things own you; you don't own things - know what is want and a need dex Young Dreamers 21 10-26-2005 12:40 PM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:55 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.