How many own LTC insurance?

[RetiredHappy]

If I have the ability to choose, I will not choose an extended poor quality of life. I can't speak for DW but her basic philosophy is the same.
That has always been my outlook that quality > quantity.
That ability to choose is the question, but DW would respect my decision, even if I could not take all the necessary steps.
Sounds morbid? Nothing so bad as laying about warehoused in a facility so I can watch a rerun on the tube every day. It for sure is not about the money.

It is not about all or nothing and being able to choose euthanasia or not. Decline is usually a slow progression. As we get older, we start to get mobility issues. We may fall and that renders it difficult to get around. We may find it difficult to stand in the kitchen to prepare meals. LTCI is about needing assistance with 2 ADLs, Acitivities of Daily Living
- Ambulation - Walking
- Bathing and showering
- Dressing and grooming
- Toileting
- Mobility - Transferring
- Self-feeding - arthritic hands need someone to cut up food to eat

So it is not that the moment you need help with 2 ADLs, you decide to say goodbye to the world.

We also worked in the LTC industry and know intimately the details and hence we chose to buy LTCI. We could self-insure but people who self-insure are less likely to want to pay for care when they need it. Putting the burden on spouse and family for help is going to add stress to others and 65% of family caregivers die before the people that they are looking after. That is a statistics that is taught on first day in gerontology. With LTCI, the mindset is that since the insured had paid up, why not have the insurer pay for care now that they need it.

 

[skyking1]

I too have worked around the industry, doing IT work at a couple of facilities for almost 20 years as a side gig. I also was the CTO for my brother's mobile imaging business, which was primarily nursing home clients.
As it is we are a little too late in our lives to buy any LTCI at a reasonable rate. It is however a great discussion for those in a better position to do so.
Where we are at, we are prepared to pay for the care as needed.

Putting the burden on spouse and family for help is going to add stress to others and 65% of family caregivers die before the people that they are looking after.

I helped DW care for her cancer patient mother at home for 5 years. Two words, bowel program.
It was an unimaginable burden that neither of us will impose on the other. Her father helped too, and he lived another year after.
So about that slow decline and decision issue. MIL continued to seek life long after I would have chosen to abandon it. Same with my wife. I am not basing these things on a vacuum of hypothetical scenarios, but on the life we have lived.
In our family experiences none have suffered from dementia or stroke or the many things that we fear the most.

 

[youbet]

I think you're reaching a bit, youbet.

Not at all. I'm simply trying to make the point that your anecdotal example is not entirely representative of the products available on the market today and your situation is unique to you. Forum members need to think about that as they shop and decide. I appreciate that you brought your scenario up. But by me asking questions and making counterpoints, I think important additional information was brought out.

While I investigate the best path forward for DW and I, I'm trying hard to not be overly influenced by anecdotal examples. I do tend to stick with the classic definition that those particularly needing LTCI as those who have too much for Medicaid but not enough to comfortably self-insure. Also, understanding how your spouse will be protected from impoverishment is key.

If you can comfortably self-insure, then LTCI is just a financial bet on your future health vs your future wealth.

 

[RetireeRobert]

My only comment is that you're giving advise to others who may not understand how to plan financially for LTC but using a no longer available policy to do so. That's sort of like someone who did well with a no longer available variable annuity suggesting that folks buy variable annuities today.

With all due respect, Youbet, syd03 was sharing his experience about LTC, not "giving advice" to anyone. I think you are putting words and/or motives in his mouth.

Isn't sharing experiences with LTC what this thread is about?

 

[youbet]

With all due respect, Youbet, syd03 was sharing his experience about LTC, not "giving advice" to anyone. I think you are putting words and/or motives in his mouth.

Isn't sharing experiences with LTC what this thread is about?

Sure. I'll gladly withdraw the term "giving advise." See my above post to syd03 above.

But, I was not trying to put motives in his mouth, as you say. I was just probing an anecdotal example of LTCI to more specifically identify how his past experience pertains to products available today and for people with different situations.

 

[syd03]

Not at all. I'm simply trying to make the point that your anecdotal example is not entirely representative of the products available on the market today and your situation is unique to you. I appreciate that you brought your scenario up. By by my asking questions and making counterpoints, I think important additional information was brought out.

While I investigate the best path forward for DW and I, I'm Chateau-sur-Mer. I do tend to stick with the classic definition that those particularly needing LTCI as those who have too much for Medicaid but not enough to comfortably self-insure. Also, understanding how your spouse will be protected from impoverishment is key.

If you can comfortably self-insure, then LTCI is just a financial bet on your future health.

I appreciate your specific interest in the topic and hope that you ultimately receive what your are seeking. I'll add that nowhere did the thread state that contributors were not permitted to share past experience, that no LTC policy could be referenced in the thread which was purchased more than a week ago, or mentioned if they were no longer available for the same cost, with same structure and components, today.

To the contrary, the OP asked specifically for responders who have purchased LTC insurance as part of a retirement plan to provide 'experiences' and at which age the policy was purchased. This is the exactly the feedback I supplied.

It seems you have more specific LTC insurance discussion requirements and interests than the OP requested. Keep in mind that members replying to the OP are going to be supplying anecdotal responses which you indicate aren't of interest to you personally, as this is precisely the type of insight the OP requested.

I agree with your final comment.

 

[youbet]

^^^^^

syd03, how did you get the term "Chateau-sur-Mer " into your quote of my post? (First line of the second paragraph.) I didn't say that. It isn't in my post. Did you add it?

Mods, any clue as to how this happened?

 

[syd03]

^^^^^

syd03, how did you get the term "Chateau-sur-Mer " into your quote of my post? (First line of the second paragraph.) I didn't say that. It isn't in my post. Did you add it?

Mods, any clue as to how this happened?

Mods, that was me. Had Chateau-sur-Mer in a previous browsing session and when I hit edit undo on a prior post response, it popped in. Not sure how. My apologies

 

[youbet]

Mods, that was me. Had Chateau-sur-Mer in a previous browsing session and when I hit edit undo on a prior post response, it popped in. Not sure how. My apologies

Would you mind deleting it, please?

 

[RetireeRobert]

Would you mind sharing your ages, what the premium was and what the LI and LTC benefits are?

If you want to gauge the LTC market, why not go to an agent with your own specifics. And get some knowledge 0f what LTC policy features are available currently, what the pricing is for your own situation.

Someone else in this thread posted so-called outdated info from a few years ago for features that may no longer be available, and they were chided for so doing.

Yet here you are asking for just such? You could get 100% accurate info for you by going to an agent and getting some quotes.

 

[skyking1]

That is the thing for sure. almost to a fault, everyone has posted about their policy that is no longer offered

 

[RetiredHappy]

That is the thing for sure. almost to a fault, everyone has posted about their policy that is no longer offered

Actually I believe my husband's hybrid policy still exists. He has Lincoln MoneyGuard II. You just need to check it out.

 

[skyking1]

Thanks I am now.

 

[MC Rider]

Mom and Dad had a policy.
Mom passed a year and a half ago.
Dad is closing in on 86 yo.
He decided to let it lapse.

Seems like a good idea to me at that age.


I have no plan to buy one.

 

[Scuba]

Actually I believe my husband's hybrid policy still exists. He has Lincoln MoneyGuard II. You just need to check it out.

Since you were in the senior care industry, as was I, and you seem very financially comfortable, I’m curious what your primary motivation was to buy LTCI. Is it to preserve assets for your son? To make sure the spouse who is trying to provide care for the sicker one doesn’t feel they have to provide care at home without tapping into assets too much? Or … ?

I’ve seen that most LTCI policies seem to make it pretty difficult to collect on claims, so unless someone has a strong advocate to help them get the most out of the policy, they may not get the benefits hoped for. Also depending on how well the insurer pays, the desired LTC provider may not accept the policy.

It seems to me that if someone can afford to self-insure, much of the risk goes away. Self-insuring provides ultimate choice of providers and services to be purchased. And if one has sufficient assets, such as a rental property, equities, or something else that can be easily sold to fund the care because it’s not being used as a source of funds for current living expenses, it seems that would be the preferred route.

What am I missing?

 

[youbet]

If you want to gauge the LTC market, why not go to an agent with your own specifics. And get some knowledge 0f what LTC policy features are available currently, what the pricing is for your own situation.

Someone else in this thread posted so-called outdated info from a few years ago for features that may no longer be available, and they were chided for so doing.

Yet here you are asking for just such? You could get 100% accurate info for you by going to an agent and getting some quotes.

No, I was not asking for “just such.” And I wasn’t asking you. Although I certainly honor your right to respond for others here on the forum.

 

[RetiredHappy]

Since you were in the senior care industry, as was I, and you seem very financially comfortable, I’m curious what your primary motivation was to buy LTCI. Is it to preserve assets for your son? To make sure the spouse who is trying to provide care for the sicker one doesn’t feel they have to provide care at home without tapping into assets too much? Or … ?

I’ve seen that most LTCI policies seem to make it pretty difficult to collect on claims, so unless someone has a strong advocate to help them get the most out of the policy, they may not get the benefits hoped for. Also depending on how well the insurer pays, the desired LTC provider may not accept the policy.

It seems to me that if someone can afford to self-insure, much of the risk goes away. Self-insuring provides ultimate choice of providers and services to be purchased. And if one has sufficient assets, such as a rental property, equities, or something else that can be easily sold to fund the care because it’s not being used as a source of funds for current living expenses, it seems that would be the preferred route.

What am I missing?

I think I have explained in prior posts.

1. People who have LTCI are more likely to accept care because they have paid into the insurance. Many wealthy people are reluctant to spend their money to pay for care even though they can well afford. In our observation of human behavior and psychology, we do not want to fall into the same trappings of not wanting to spend on getting care when we need as we age. We want better quality of life and also not make family our caregivers.

2. Claiming was never an issue as long as 2 ADLs were needed. We ran our business and had always succeeded in facilitating approvals and payments from LTC companies. We billed directly if our clients assigned benefits to us. What we observed was that sometimes, it was the clients' children who initiated the claim request instead of the clients and their parents really need not want care. When a RN was sent out to evaluate their ADL needs, they would tell the RN that they did not need help.

3. Most people, I would say 95% of the public have no idea how costly long term care can be. Many think they will self insure and the cost maybe just a couple of hundred thousand dollars. It maybe enough in most cases but it is insufficient for dragged out health conditions like dementia or a debilitating stroke but not enough to kill them fast.

 

[youbet]

I think I have explained in prior posts.

1. People who have LTCI are more likely to accept care because they have paid into the insurance. Many wealthy people are reluctant to spend their money to pay for care even though they can well afford. In our observation of human behavior and psychology, we do not want to fall into the same trappings of not wanting to spend on getting care when we need as we age. We want better quality of life and also not make family our caregivers.

2. Claiming was never an issue as long as 2 ADLs were needed. We ran our business and had always succeeded in facilitating approvals and payments from LTC companies. We billed directly if our clients assigned benefits to us. What we observed was that sometimes, it was the clients' children who initiated the claim request instead of the clients and their parents really need not want care. When a RN was sent out to evaluate their ADL needs, they would tell the RN that they did not need help.

3. Most people, I would say 95% of the public have no idea how costly long term care can be. Many think they will self insure and the cost maybe just a couple of hundred thousand dollars. It maybe enough in most cases but it is insufficient for dragged out health conditions like dementia or a debilitating stroke but not enough to kill them fast.

Based on your other posts, I would have never placed you personally in category #1 or #3.

 

[RetireeRobert]

Given a lot of comments and perhaps worries on whether LTCi will pay claims when it comes time, this brief article from 2017 addresses the common hangups and how to avoid them for claims processing: https://ltcconsumer.com/four-tips-filing-long-term-care-insurance-claim/

That site also has a lot of LTCi information otherwise.

 

[RetireeRobert]

And there is also this LTCI article on overcoming/avoiding claims problems from Kiplingers:
https://www.kiplinger.com/article/r...bad faith" claims against insurance companies.

 

[DrRoy]

Self insured.

 

[Scuba]

I think I have explained in prior posts.



1. People who have LTCI are more likely to accept care because they have paid into the insurance. Many wealthy people are reluctant to spend their money to pay for care even though they can well afford. In our observation of human behavior and psychology, we do not want to fall into the same trappings of not wanting to spend on getting care when we need as we age. We want better quality of life and also not make family our caregivers.



2. Claiming was never an issue as long as 2 ADLs were needed. We ran our business and had always succeeded in facilitating approvals and payments from LTC companies. We billed directly if our clients assigned benefits to us. What we observed was that sometimes, it was the clients' children who initiated the claim request instead of the clients and their parents really need not want care. When a RN was sent out to evaluate their ADL needs, they would tell the RN that they did not need help.



3. Most people, I would say 95% of the public have no idea how costly long term care can be. Many think they will self insure and the cost maybe just a couple of hundred thousand dollars. It maybe enough in most cases but it is insufficient for dragged out health conditions like dementia or a debilitating stroke but not enough to kill them fast.

Thank you for summarizing your rationale. I do not think DH or I would fall into categories 1 or 3. Assigning the benefits of LTCI over to the facility makes sense and likely gives people the best chance of recovering funds as long as the facility accepts the LTCI coverage. The operator I worked for did not accept many LTCI policies because of the low reimbursement rates.

I am confident that we will accept and pay for care if needed, just as we now pay for a housekeeper and other service providers that make our lives easier. And we certainly appreciate the potential cost, but I’m thinking that $1M+ net proceeds from selling our rental property should be far in excess of potential LTC expense, and likely more than any LTC policy would pay out. We value choice above all and it seems to me that if one can afford to self-insure, choice is maximized because there is no insurance company gatekeeper in the way.

Obviously YMMV. Certainly people with heirs likely feel very differently. DH and I agree that neither of us wants to be warehoused in a memory care facility for the last decade of our lives. We can only hope that by then there is legal euthanasia for these circumstances or if not, that we will have the courage to help carry out each other’s wishes despite any legal challenges.

 

[misanman]

We are self insuring.

 

[RetiredHappy]

Thank you for summarizing your rationale. I do not think DH or I would fall into categories 1 or 3. Assigning the benefits of LTCI over to the facility makes sense and likely gives people the best chance of recovering funds as long as the facility accepts the LTCI coverage. The operator I worked for did not accept many LTCI policies because of the low reimbursement rates.

The reimbursement rate is the daily or monthly amount payable per the bought policy. It goes back to my point that even policy holders have no clue how expensive LTC can be. The facilities can balance bill the patients for the shortfall. However, many people cannot afford to pay the balance.

 

[slowsaver]

As others have said, I decided not to get LTCi, due to cost and also some horror stories I read here about not being able to collect when you need it. Since I don't have children, I would have a hard time navigating making a claim if I end up with Alzheimers or dementia. I'm planning to go into a really nice CCRC with memory care as soon as my DH dies (he's 10 years older than me), or maybe go together, if he lives a long time. I realize some people *hate* the idea of losing their independence and leaving their home, but I am not like that. I love a package deal and don't mind following rules.