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Old 09-18-2021, 12:36 PM   #61
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I am in the he process of doing that now. That seems reasonable. Thanks.
After you get some answers, an update on what you find out would be appreciated by many here I'm sure.
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Old 09-18-2021, 01:23 PM   #62
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It is most likely we will self insure but at least it should be an informed choice.
That's what were aiming for too. We're older than you folks, so fewer practical options, but we still feel it's important to understand everything in detail.
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I suspect the newer hybrid policies are also mis-priced but the risk is to the provider.
I'm not sure that the risk is all to the provider with the hybrid policies. If they have significantly under-priced the policies, they might be able to reduce the benefits later. Or, if the situation is bad enough, enact some scheme where they are able to just stop paying benefits for that class of policy. I've been trying to understand that aspect of the hybrids.
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Old 09-19-2021, 05:42 AM   #63
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We own two properties, one of which we rent to a full-time tenant. Our rental property is currently worth around $1 million, net of capital gains tax and debt on the property. I figure thatís our LTC policy. If one or both of us needed care for a long time, this should adequately fund the care without causing financial problems or displacement for the other.

We have no kids so not worried about passing this property down to heirs.

Anyone see a reason we should buy LTC insurance?
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:39 AM   #64
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Be aware that if you or your DW have a "health event" during the 4 - 5 years while you're waiting, you and/or DW may not pass their mental/physical requirements for a Type A plan. You must be totally capable of independent living when you enter.

DW and I are also looking a Type A CCRC's and find picking an entry age to be frustrating. Go in too soon and you might be wishing you were still in your own home and living that lifestyle. Wait too long and have a "health event," and you can't get in except under a Type C plan.
We executed the CCRC strategy when we were 72/71. Earlier than planned but pricing on new project and ability to be part of a younger community made sense for us. Research we did also uncovered an analysis that pointed out that moving in CCRC "early" actually provided you more years when you could actually fully enjoy all the benefits. We have notice in our CCRC how quickly our 80+ residents hardly leave their units beyond meals and minimal programs.
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Old 09-19-2021, 04:19 PM   #65
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I'm not sure that the risk is all to the provider with the hybrid policies. If they have significantly under-priced the policies, they might be able to reduce the benefits later. Or, if the situation is bad enough, enact some scheme where they are able to just stop paying benefits for that class of policy. I've been trying to understand that aspect of the hybrids.


I agree. I thought a long time before I made that statement. They are complex products. The death benefit is more than the premium so it seems that would be tough to wrangle out of.
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Old 09-19-2021, 06:03 PM   #66
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I am considering a policy like this through One America . We would probably pay the full amt up front and receive a discount on the price. I canít see too many downsides.

We are not concerned with a large payout from the death benefit to our heirs since we donít have kids. We would be willing to take a lesser amt or forgo the payout altogether if we could get a lower upfront price. The policy has the chassis of a life insurance policy so I recognize that this is probably wishful thinking.

As far as I can tell the company is stable . I am having trouble pulling the trigger for some reason. We would move $150,000 from the IRA to fund it ( no tax implications)and be eligible for a $5729/mth benefit lifetime benefit each for me and my spouse. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
If you are not concerned with the life insurance payout, you may get benefit by reducing the life amount and putting the difference toward a very generous LTC rider.

That's what we did with our One America hybrid policy. 5% inflation and unlimited LTC payout. Subject to annual max of course. Long term payout became a concern of ours when a friend required nearly a decade of care for his young wife with Alzheimer's.

$100k policy will not be enough to cover nursing home annual cost but it substantially reduces the burden. Call it semi self insured.
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Old 09-20-2021, 09:38 AM   #67
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I agree. I thought a long time before I made that statement. They are complex products. The death benefit is more than the premium so it seems that would be tough to wrangle out of.
Well, we know that the aggregate premiums paid in + earnings must exceed the aggregate benefits paid out + administrative expenses (or they eventually go out of business). Policy holders must hope the insurance company is skilled at predicting future costs of both LTC and LI obligations and has priced the policies and estimated the earnings and administrative expenses accurately. The much sought after concept of "peace of mind" won't exist if policy owners know the company is struggling.

In terms of wrangling out of paying the death benefit, I agree not paying out death benefits is not a real concern IMHO. But, I wouldn't buy a hybrid policy if my primary concern is LI. I'm investigating LTC coverage. In particular, I'm looking for catastrophic coverage.
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Old 09-20-2021, 10:05 AM   #68
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If you are not concerned with the life insurance payout, you may get benefit by reducing the life amount and putting the difference toward a very generous LTC rider.

That's what we did with our One America hybrid policy. 5% inflation and unlimited LTC payout. Subject to annual max of course. Long term payout became a concern of ours when a friend required nearly a decade of care for his young wife with Alzheimer's.

$100k policy will not be enough to cover nursing home annual cost but it substantially reduces the burden. Call it semi self insured.
Would you mind sharing your ages, what the premium was and what the LI and LTC benefits are?
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Old 09-20-2021, 10:21 AM   #69
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We executed the CCRC strategy when we were 72/71. Earlier than planned but pricing on new project and ability to be part of a younger community made sense for us. Research we did also uncovered an analysis that pointed out that moving in CCRC "early" actually provided you more years when you could actually fully enjoy all the benefits. We have notice in our CCRC how quickly our 80+ residents hardly leave their units beyond meals and minimal programs.
Indeed, lots of pros and cons for any age you pick to enter a Type A CCRC. Our favorite, of several we've visited multiple times, does have an older population. We're both 74 and have yet to meet anyone there that's younger. But their physical plant, grounds, staff and (most importantly) full nursing and memory care ratings are the best of the bunch. Also, since we still travel 2 - 3 months a year, it's tough for frugal folks like us to sign onto paying the monthly fees while not being there.

At our current age and health status, moving into a CCRC would be a step down from our current lifestyle in our own home. So, we are a bit hesitant to move in early.

Our favorite aspect of CCRC's (Type A, B or C) is that in the event of a sudden change in health status, the necessary facilities are right there, pre-planned. Say, one of us has a serious stroke. No pressure on the spouse to shop for a NH, begin daily visits which might involve a significant commute, etc.
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Old 09-20-2021, 10:21 AM   #70
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We own two properties, one of which we rent to a full-time tenant. Our rental property is currently worth around $1 million, net of capital gains tax and debt on the property. I figure thatís our LTC policy. If one or both of us needed care for a long time, this should adequately fund the care without causing financial problems or displacement for the other.

We have no kids so not worried about passing this property down to heirs.

Anyone see a reason we should buy LTC insurance?
No, that is how we are handling it and the "no heirs" thing applies to us too.
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Old 09-20-2021, 10:22 AM   #71
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Dh and I also have LTC insurance. We purchased it relatively young (early 40ís). I have worked in a field where I saw the ďexceptionsĒ (someone in their 40ís having a serious stroke or TBI and needing care for huge numbers of years)
We pay about 2k per year for both policies. About 10 years ago we decided to give up COLAís to keep our premium the same. So we would get about 6K per month, but itís unlimited time (the plan is no longer sold).
My feeling is it will help with expenses and comes at a price we can afford easily. And it covers home health care as well as a facility. At this point weíve paid in about 40k.
A lot, yes, but we also paid for term life insurance for 20 years while the kids were young and didnít need it (yay!). Weíve also paid for home insurance and car insurance and seldom had a claim. I still consider it money well spent for peace of mind.
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Old 09-20-2021, 10:56 AM   #72
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Indeed. Of course it's your planning, not your uncle's, that matters to you. If you don't trust yourself to understand and properly prepare to be self-insured for LTC, the consequences could be not to your liking. Well, you'll pass down more or perhaps less than if you self-insured depending on how much LTC eventually costs you vs the premiums you pay. This sounds too good to be true syd03. A small fraction of $130k is, say, $50k. For that you get unlimited, lifetime LTC coverage? What is the actual amount you paid? What are the LTC and life insurance benefits? The statistics say we're over-prepared. But that's sort of a universal trend on this forum. You know, belts and suspenders kind of folks!

But, having said all that, we're still evaluating Type A CCRC's. We're not against the idea of insuring for LTC in some form, even though we can self-insure, but we're not sure of which path to follow. So many pros and cons........
1) Appreciate the feedback youbet. Again, many may understand perfectly how to anticipate LTC expenses, others may not. I do, but I also like the way we've hedged our approach. Just a personal opinion, that's all. Hence the input I provided previously. Only supplied on fwiw basis.

2) If either DW or I, or both, spend any time at all in a skilled facility the odds are high there will be more $ passed down than what we paid for the policy. Again this is unique, perhaps, to our situation in that we purchased a single premium policy. So the future potential escalating annual premiums you reference are no longer a consideration. The policy, one payment, cost $57,000 at the time. As mentioned in a previous post, the policy does not include a death benefit, and will pay roughly 68% of 3 year stays for both spouse and self. I never said we would receive unlimited LTC coverage. It has a 3% inflation rider. Adding a death benefit option, at least as I understand it, substantially dilutes why we actually wanted the policy; LTC coverage. Don't care about a death benefit, would rather have better daily LTC reimbursement if ever necessary. We didn't select the return of premium option either, for the same reason. All those 'perks' come at a cost; you lessen the daily facility coverage amounts. So, if, and it's a big if, either of us or both ever need LTC coverage some point down the road we'll be in a better position in terms of protecting other assets. The math is simple; 2021 annual LTC care costs in my state are already averaging $135K per person for a private room. The policy max payout is $1.1M at 90 years old. At this point, the only way we come out behind is if neither needs LTC at all. And if that's the case, awesome. I'll gladly swallow the $57K in exchange for passing suddenly and painlessly. I might add too that the $57K used to pay the premium was sitting in a bank, so future investment earnings loss wasn't a major concern. Worst case (health) scenario, we paid $57K for $1.1M in LTC coverage if we both end up in skilled care for a few years. In that case, estate keeps the $1M not spent self-insuring. I should add that my understanding is the policy we purchased is no longer available exactly as outlined. This was roughly 5 years ago and we were fortunate, in that neither had any underlying health concerns at the time of application.

I fear I sound a bit like I'm propping up the insurance industry. Not my intent. I'm not a paid spokesman, I worked in the healthcare industry and DW in telecom. In fact, if I had a dime for every time we were annoyed by insurance propositions through the years.... In most cases though, got to have insurance like it or not. And many times with auto, homeowners, we've been relieved we had the coverage. LTC is a bit of an outlier, however. It's a basic gamble, really.
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Old 09-20-2021, 11:19 AM   #73
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If I have the ability to choose, I will not choose an extended poor quality of life. I can't speak for DW but her basic philosophy is the same.
That has always been my outlook that quality > quantity.
That ability to choose is the question, but DW would respect my decision, even if I could not take all the necessary steps.
Sounds morbid? Nothing so bad as laying about warehoused in a facility so I can watch a rerun on the tube every day. It for sure is not about the money.
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Old 09-20-2021, 11:29 AM   #74
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1) Appreciate the feedback youbet. Again, many may understand perfectly how to anticipate LTC expenses, others may not. I do, but I also like the way we've hedged our approach. Just a personal opinion, that's all. Hence the input I provided previously
My only comment is that you're giving advise to others who may not understand how to plan financially for LTC but using a no longer available policy to do so. That's sort of like someone who did well with a no longer available variable annuity suggesting that folks buy variable annuities today. I understand how to self-insure for LTC. You understand how to self-insure for LTC. Perhaps that's what we should discuss as opposed to some group of hypothetical other folks on the forum who do not understand how to self-insure.
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2) If either DW or I, or both, spend any time at all in a skilled facility the odds are high there will be more $ passed down than what we paid for the policy.
Although in aggregate, folks will have less to pass down because the insurance company has to pay out less than they take in or they go out of business. That's why it's called "insurance." Thinking about all the various insurance policies I own, they would all result in me passing with a larger estate if they pay me more than I paid out in premiums and lost opportunity.
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Again this is unique, perhaps, to our situation in that we purchased a single premium policy. So the future potential escalating annual premiums you reference are no longer a consideration.
Where did I mention escalating premiums?
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It's a basic gamble, really.
Yep. And I think the policies being offered today are less attractive that your no-longer-offered policy. But I keep looking at the various options available today for someone my age.
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Old 09-20-2021, 11:49 AM   #75
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Indeed. Of course it's your planning, not your uncle's, that matters to you. If you don't trust yourself to understand and properly prepare to be self-insured for LTC, the consequences could be not to your liking. Well, you'll pass down more or perhaps less than if you self-insured depending on how much LTC eventually costs you vs the premiums you pay. This sounds too good to be true syd03. A small fraction of $130k is, say, $50k. For that you get unlimited, lifetime LTC coverage? What is the actual amount you paid? What are the LTC and life insurance benefits? The statistics say we're over-prepared. But that's sort of a universal trend on this forum. You know, belts and suspenders kind of folks!

But, having said all that, we're still evaluating Type A CCRC's. We're not against the idea of insuring for LTC in some form, even though we can self-insure, but we're not sure of which path to follow. So many pros and cons........
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My only comment is that you're giving advise to others who may not understand how to plan financially for LTC but using a no longer available policy to do so. That's sort of like someone who did well with a no longer available variable annuity suggesting that folks buy variable annuities today. I understand how to self-insure for LTC. You understand how to self-insure for LTC. Perhaps that's what we should discuss as opposed to some group of hypothetical other folks on the forum who do not understand how to self-insure. Although in aggregate, folks will have less to pass down because the insurance company has to pay out less than they take in or they go out of business. That's why it's called "insurance." Thinking about all the various insurance policies I own, they would all result in me passing with a larger estate if they pay me more than I paid out in premiums and lost opportunity. Where did I mention escalating premiums?

Yep. And I think the policies being offered today are less attractive that your no-longer-offered policy. But I keep looking at the various options available today for someone my age.
I think you're reaching a bit, youbet. I've simply shared my experience as reference for forum members. IE, contributing to the discussion. In reality, I never advised anyone to do anything. Stating that my exact policy may not be available, is simply stating fact/setting expectations. That said, there are a myriad of other LTC policy options available in the same vein. Hybrid/non-hybrid, etc.

The thread topic is "How many own LTC insurance". Not "Please provide advice on how to purchase LTC insurance". I happen to own LTC insurance and commented as such
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Old 09-20-2021, 12:07 PM   #76
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If I have the ability to choose, I will not choose an extended poor quality of life. I can't speak for DW but her basic philosophy is the same.
That has always been my outlook that quality > quantity.
That ability to choose is the question, but DW would respect my decision, even if I could not take all the necessary steps.
Sounds morbid? Nothing so bad as laying about warehoused in a facility so I can watch a rerun on the tube every day. It for sure is not about the money.
It is not about all or nothing and being able to choose euthanasia or not. Decline is usually a slow progression. As we get older, we start to get mobility issues. We may fall and that renders it difficult to get around. We may find it difficult to stand in the kitchen to prepare meals. LTCI is about needing assistance with 2 ADLs, Acitivities of Daily Living
- Ambulation - Walking
- Bathing and showering
- Dressing and grooming
- Toileting
- Mobility - Transferring
- Self-feeding - arthritic hands need someone to cut up food to eat

So it is not that the moment you need help with 2 ADLs, you decide to say goodbye to the world.

We also worked in the LTC industry and know intimately the details and hence we chose to buy LTCI. We could self-insure but people who self-insure are less likely to want to pay for care when they need it. Putting the burden on spouse and family for help is going to add stress to others and 65% of family caregivers die before the people that they are looking after. That is a statistics that is taught on first day in gerontology. With LTCI, the mindset is that since the insured had paid up, why not have the insurer pay for care now that they need it.
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Old 09-20-2021, 12:22 PM   #77
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I too have worked around the industry, doing IT work at a couple of facilities for almost 20 years as a side gig. I also was the CTO for my brother's mobile imaging business, which was primarily nursing home clients.
As it is we are a little too late in our lives to buy any LTCI at a reasonable rate. It is however a great discussion for those in a better position to do so.
Where we are at, we are prepared to pay for the care as needed.
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Putting the burden on spouse and family for help is going to add stress to others and 65% of family caregivers die before the people that they are looking after.
I helped DW care for her cancer patient mother at home for 5 years. Two words, bowel program.
It was an unimaginable burden that neither of us will impose on the other. Her father helped too, and he lived another year after.
So about that slow decline and decision issue. MIL continued to seek life long after I would have chosen to abandon it. Same with my wife. I am not basing these things on a vacuum of hypothetical scenarios, but on the life we have lived.
In our family experiences none have suffered from dementia or stroke or the many things that we fear the most.
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Old 09-20-2021, 12:53 PM   #78
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I think you're reaching a bit, youbet.
Not at all. I'm simply trying to make the point that your anecdotal example is not entirely representative of the products available on the market today and your situation is unique to you. Forum members need to think about that as they shop and decide. I appreciate that you brought your scenario up. But by me asking questions and making counterpoints, I think important additional information was brought out.

While I investigate the best path forward for DW and I, I'm trying hard to not be overly influenced by anecdotal examples. I do tend to stick with the classic definition that those particularly needing LTCI as those who have too much for Medicaid but not enough to comfortably self-insure. Also, understanding how your spouse will be protected from impoverishment is key.

If you can comfortably self-insure, then LTCI is just a financial bet on your future health vs your future wealth.
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Old 09-20-2021, 12:59 PM   #79
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My only comment is that you're giving advise to others who may not understand how to plan financially for LTC but using a no longer available policy to do so. That's sort of like someone who did well with a no longer available variable annuity suggesting that folks buy variable annuities today.
With all due respect, Youbet, syd03 was sharing his experience about LTC, not "giving advice" to anyone. I think you are putting words and/or motives in his mouth.

Isn't sharing experiences with LTC what this thread is about?
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Old 09-20-2021, 01:23 PM   #80
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With all due respect, Youbet, syd03 was sharing his experience about LTC, not "giving advice" to anyone. I think you are putting words and/or motives in his mouth.

Isn't sharing experiences with LTC what this thread is about?
Sure. I'll gladly withdraw the term "giving advise." See my above post to syd03 above.

But, I was not trying to put motives in his mouth, as you say. I was just probing an anecdotal example of LTCI to more specifically identify how his past experience pertains to products available today and for people with different situations.
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