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Old 10-21-2020, 09:31 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by bcbix001 View Post
Real Estate is local. It sounds like you have not paid much attention to the local market and are looking from free advice from a national (or broader forum). Based on your track record of not maintaining / updating your house, this is neither your strength or interest. If you have adequate resources without using the house as a final boost to your portfolio, do not try to maximize it now. My DW also hated upgrades just before selling... she wished she could have enjoyed the new stuff for a year or two. My free advice, is get a good inspection, research 2 or 3 realtors and get market assessments and fix up advice from them relative to the local market. If you want or need top dollar, you may need to work for it... if that does not interest you, set a realistic price and be prepared to be flexible.
Good inspection...but heck, let the buyer do that. If they find something they don't like negotiate it. Inspections are fairly inexpensive for that size home. I still have things inspector found that I deemed more important and still haven't fixed after moving in 7 years ago.

I've always had clean, respectable and maintained properties when I sold them. Did replace a roof and sold 2 years later which I kinda regretted but the roof was only like $7,000 to replace so not too bad.

Realtors are a dime a dozen, some give sage advice, some give trainwreck advice. I've had ok and not so ok. Same with inspectors. YMMV
''

Great starter home in great neighborhood. Seems like a good listing title to me. Price it accordingly and it will sell.
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Old 10-21-2020, 10:11 AM   #62
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How much can you get for it now? How much could you get if you do $80k in renovations?

Answer that and you have your solution. My gut says, don't bother.

Get painters and carpenters in to do not-expensive cosmetic work and leave it. Hire someone to stage it. Then move on.

If you can make $100k in profit, might be worth it. But that's a lot of plaster dust and PIA stuff. Up to you.
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Old 10-29-2020, 08:42 AM   #63
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I've lived for the past 30 years in a little "crapbox" - 1200 sqft starter home. Since DW and I never reproduced it's been big enough (barely) and we've never gotten around to moving. Now that I'm retired and DW's part time commitments at the local college are winding down we will soon be untethered to this area and will sell the old place and find a nicer "forever" house somewhere else.

Here's the thing. We're lazy and haven't really kept the house up to date. We've done a few "functional" remodels over the years (new flooring, lighting, windows, regular repainting) but the kitchen and bathrooms are very dated and the roof is 30+ years old. So we could easily spend $60-80K or more on remodeling / deferred maintenance.

The question is: should we?

Realtors always tell you to do all that stuff to maximize your selling price, but their advice is hardly impartial. If the cost of the work is anywhere close to the change in selling price I'd be strongly tempted to just sell as is.

We live in one of the cheapest neighborhoods in a "desirable" high COL area and Ive seen houses more beat up than ours sell quickly if priced a few 10s of $K less than comps. I have little doubt that our place will sell if priced similarly aggressively (though it may make our neighbors hate us).


So again, I'm tempted to just sell as is. Is that a bad idea?
Like others have said, if it's a hot market, sell!

Seems like that's the case in the midwest, anyway.

We moved into our "starter home" in '03. Bought it for under $120k - some goofy number 115.9k?

After several years and a couple kids, Wife wasn't happy with all it's imperfections of a house built in '49, flooded and main level redone (cheaply) in '97, and a basement that leaked every spring, sometimes for a day, sometimes two weeks. So, I installed 2 exterior doors, she had it painted, we had it shingled 4 years before we sold, and hired acquaintances to paint the exterior, family and I redid the upstairs bathroom. Maybe a grand total of $8-9k of improvements for the 9 years we lived there. I think we paid around $300/mo. to heat it in the dead of winter after I blew over a foot of insulation into the attic. So, it needed windows, and foundation work to seal the cracks and deal with the water. Both our neighbors had a sump pump, our house didn't. I think the realtor suggested listing for $155k. I said 157k. Got 5 showings in 12 hrs., 3 offers, 1 cash, and Sold! for 161k the day after listing. That guy/family only lived there 14 mos. while his new house was being built on the golf course.

The first thing the new owners did was repaint the inside - so, $1200 of our money "wasted", and put in a new A/C and possibly a furnace. At some point it got new windows and a sump pump and they addressed the foundation by digging a lot of it up, I noticed. The assessment went up about $50k. In the mean time, the next house we moved into has gone up about $60k or more and we haven't done anything to it. Never know until you try to sell.

So, I/we fixed the cheap/minimum things to maintain and make it sellable, and let them buy the big dollar items like windows and major foundation repair (it was just hairline cracks letting the water in, but, it seems to me that any foundation repair is major).

I guess if your target audience is flippers, leave it as is. If your target audience is "starter home" people that want move-in-ready, I wouldn't do it any different than what we did. Make it livable and let them buy the major upgrades.

Maybe my late reply is a decision that already has been made, but this topic entertains me.

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Old 10-29-2020, 09:44 AM   #64
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To pile on the late answers, here is what is happening to us right now:

Renters moved out of our townhouse on Aug. 30. We dithered a bit with fixing it up because we had other fun things to do and had some interest from someone with a tight budget (so wouldn’t be able to pay for any improvements we might do). By the end of September that deal wasn’t happening so we were moving forward with improvements we believed would be necessary. We got an estimate from our “guy” to redo two upstairs bathrooms and a few small items. I started painting everything.

Before signing the contract with the contractor we decided to bring in a real estate agent for advice. She told us to not bother rehab in the bathrooms— just refinish one tub, clean and paint. We also replaced the stained ceiling tiles in a finished basement area and replaced yellowed vinyl flooring in that area with carpet (her suggestion). I finished painting the interior.

The house was listed as “coming soon” for about two weeks while we finished our tasks. It went on the market yesterday at 3:30 pm. Then the craziness started: five showings last night, six scheduled for today and three so far for the weekend.

At the advice of our agent we specified that we will look at all offers received by Sunday afternoon. DH plays pickleball with a different realtor who showed our house last night and her client plans to submit an offer.

We only need one acceptable offer. We are shocked at the interest (if showings indicate interest). It certainly feels like a seller’s market here in the Philadelphia suburbs.
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Old 10-29-2020, 01:31 PM   #65
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...My free advice, is get a good inspection ...
NO!

In my area it is recommended that sellers NOT get a property inspection... because if you do and become aware of flaws in the property that you were previously unaware of, you may need to disclose them to the buyer and in some cases where it would be dangerous, fix it. If the buyer finds out that you were aware of some major flaw and did not disclose it in the property information report then they can come back at you.

OTOH, if you are unaware and fail to disclose then you're ok.

In our parts, it is up to the buyer to have an inspection done as part of their due diligence.

Sometimes, ignorance is bilss.
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Old 10-29-2020, 01:46 PM   #66
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NO!

In my area it is recommended that sellers NOT get a property inspection... because if you do and become aware of flaws in the property that you were previously unaware of, you may need to disclose them to the buyer and in some cases where it would be dangerous, fix it. If the buyer finds out that you were aware of some major flaw and did not disclose it in the property information report then they can come back at you.

OTOH, if you are unaware and fail to disclose then you're ok.

In our parts, it is up to the buyer to have an inspection done as part of their due diligence.

Sometimes, ignorance is bilss.
Not sure that holds water in this day and age..I personally know of a couple of cases where the buyer has come back and sued the seller of monetary damages to fix a problem discovered after they moved in. Don't think it matters if the seller knew about it or not. When we were still acquiring farmland we bought 80 acres with a building site where we wanted to raise youngstock. Found out the well was really inoperable and needed to drill a new one. People told us to get a lawyer to ask the seller for the cost of the well and we would likely get that money back. We decided not to, because the guy was a neighbor and we wanted to buy more local land, didn't want to get a bad reputation.. FYI the well cost almost 6% of the cost of the property.
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Old 10-29-2020, 03:44 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
NO!

In my area it is recommended that sellers NOT get a property inspection... because if you do and become aware of flaws in the property that you were previously unaware of, you may need to disclose them to the buyer and in some cases where it would be dangerous, fix it. If the buyer finds out that you were aware of some major flaw and did not disclose it in the property information report then they can come back at you.

OTOH, if you are unaware and fail to disclose then you're ok.

In our parts, it is up to the buyer to have an inspection done as part of their due diligence.

Sometimes, ignorance is bilss.
You might have missed my earlier post where the real estate agent recommended I not get a septic inspection before I listed it and I ended up paying top buck to have a septic filed installed in the winter.
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Old 10-29-2020, 04:00 PM   #68
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You might have missed my earlier post where the real estate agent recommended I not get a septic inspection before I listed it and I ended up paying top buck to have a septic filed installed in the winter.

That still doesn't discount his reasoning. In my area as well it is generally up to the buyer to pay for an inspection. If they then find an issue such as needing a septic system you then negotiate who will pay for what.

If on the other hand you did the inspection and didn't disclose it needed a new septic as PB4uski mentioned then you open yourself up to liability issues. AT least that is how it is around here in NH.
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Old 10-29-2020, 04:15 PM   #69
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Not sure that holds water in this day and age..I personally know of a couple of cases where the buyer has come back and sued the seller of monetary damages to fix a problem discovered after they moved in. Don't think it matters if the seller knew about it or not. When we were still acquiring farmland we bought 80 acres with a building site where we wanted to raise youngstock. Found out the well was really inoperable and needed to drill a new one. People told us to get a lawyer to ask the seller for the cost of the well and we would likely get that money back. We decided not to, because the guy was a neighbor and we wanted to buy more local land, didn't want to get a bad reputation.. FYI the well cost almost 6% of the cost of the property.
I disagree. To begin with, if someone feels aggrieved they can sue for anything... so they certainly can sue the seller whether the seller knew about it or not.

However, if during discovery the plantiffs find that the seller had a home inspection done that flagged a significant issue and that the seller failed to disclose it to the buyer, then the defendant is in a very vulnerable position.

On the other hand, if there is no evidence pointing to the seller having knowledge of the issue and the failed to disclose it then they are less vunerable... you can't reasonably be expected to disclose something that you are not aware of. Caveat emptor and all that.

You say that you know of "a couple of cases where the buyer has come back and sued the seller of monetary damages to fix a problem discovered after they moved in". What was the outcome of those cases? Was the seller aware of and failed to disclose the problems or were they unaware of the problems? If the seller was unaware of the problem so failed to disclose it and was later sued by the buyer and lost then you may have a point... otherwise you have no point at all because anybody can sue anybody.
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Old 10-29-2020, 04:22 PM   #70
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I'm not a proponent of pouring money in before a resale, but I got screwed royal by bad advice from a real estate agent with respect to having the septic system inspected prior to sale. It was 50 years old and working, but I'd heard from neighbors that it might not pass the mandatory inspection.

Long story short, by the time it failed the inspection it was winter in Michigan, the sale was held up and I paid over $22K to have it replaced. So, for others in a similar situation, beware.
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Septic and wells inspections are commonly required by law before a property can be sold. In my experience the septic inspector and the regional supplier/contractor was one and the same.
IF, and note that I said IF, certain inspections are mandatory before a property can be sold then that would seem to be a potential exception in that the seller would eventually be made aware of a flaw... it MAY be in the seller's best interest to have an inspection done for such mandatory items to get ahead of the problem.... but on the other hand, one inspector might note a flaw and another might not, especially if the nature of the item is highly judgemental.

At the same time, the situation Doribe decscribes is akin to having the fox guard the henhouse.
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Old 10-29-2020, 04:55 PM   #71
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That still doesn't discount his reasoning. In my area as well it is generally up to the buyer to pay for an inspection. If they then find an issue such as needing a septic system you then negotiate who will pay for what. ..............
Exactly what the crooked real estate agent told me. "If it fails, I'll negotiate with the buyer to split the cost.". Then when it failed, he said , "You can't sell it without fixing it so you are on the hook for the full cost". And, yes, he denied ever saying any different.

Did I mention how much I dislike this agent?
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Old 10-29-2020, 05:36 PM   #72
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Exactly what the crooked real estate agent told me. "If it fails, I'll negotiate with the buyer to split the cost.". Then when it failed, he said , "You can't sell it without fixing it so you are on the hook for the full cost". And, yes, he denied ever saying any different.

Did I mention how much I dislike this agent?
Sounds like BS to me.

While it might be true that you couldn't sell it without fixing it, it doesn't necessarily follow that you were on the hook for the full cost.... sellers often at least mentally increase their minimum sale price expectation for improvements that they have to make.. and you can then also legitimately claim that it has a new septic system... which presumably would command a higer price that the same property with an old but still functioning septic system ad at least recover some of your cost.

Would a buyer be willing to pay more for a house with a brand new driveway vs a 10 year old driveway?

Did he ever approach the buyers to negotiate a better price to reflect the better utility of the new septic system?
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Old 10-29-2020, 05:59 PM   #73
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I disagree. To begin with, if someone feels aggrieved they can sue for anything... so they certainly can sue the seller whether the seller knew about it or not.

However, if during discovery the plantiffs find that the seller had a home inspection done that flagged a significant issue and that the seller failed to disclose it to the buyer, then the defendant is in a very vulnerable position.

On the other hand, if there is no evidence pointing to the seller having knowledge of the issue and the failed to disclose it then they are less vunerable... you can't reasonably be expected to disclose something that you are not aware of. Caveat emptor and all that.

You say that you know of "a couple of cases where the buyer has come back and sued the seller of monetary damages to fix a problem discovered after they moved in". What was the outcome of those cases? Was the seller aware of and failed to disclose the problems or were they unaware of the problems? If the seller was unaware of the problem so failed to disclose it and was later sued by the buyer and lost then you may have a point... otherwise you have no point at all because anybody can sue anybody.
I actually know of three cases, it's rural so they involved two septic issues and a well issue.

One case I knew the seller, unimproved land sold for a building site. The perc test the buyer did showed he would have to put in a more expensive septic tank then normal to meet standards ..the seller got sued and payed the buyer the extra cost of the septic. Seller never ran a perc test so he had no idea it was an issue.

The well was similar to mine, buyer bought an older farm house and has low water pressure, usable but not to modern standards. The seller was fine with the water pressure, but the buyer sued saying they wanted a new well. Seller payed half the cost of a new well.

Third case is doozey, seller bought a little lake cabin, it was clearly listed as having a "shared" well. Due to lack of due diligence the buyer didn't realize until after closing that their water supply was really a hose connected to the next door property's well. Lawyers involved and the seller had to pay half the cost of a new well. PS, I know this person (buyer) and yes they are that dumb.

I actually know one party on each of these issues so it's not hearsay. I will mention that I used the word sued as a catchall, letters between lawyers on each side were exchanged, suits were threatened ,and some type of agreement was reached. Most of these settlements were in the range of maybe 10-15K. Total costs of the repairs/upgrades in the 20-30K area. So not minor enough for small claims and very expensive as far as actually taking to court,
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Old 10-29-2020, 06:02 PM   #74
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In today's market it may be better to sell as is. The market in most areas is hot while renovations and repair costs are skyrocketing. Purely anecdotal based on DS recent home selling.
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Old 10-29-2020, 06:56 PM   #75
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Sounds like BS to me........
It sounds like you are calling me a liar. Discussion over.
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Old 10-29-2020, 07:56 PM   #76
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It sounds like you are calling me a liar. Discussion over.
I think the BS being referred to was stuff your agent tried to feed you.
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Old 10-29-2020, 08:02 PM   #77
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I think the BS being referred to was stuff your agent tried to feed you.
That's what I took from it..sounds like the poster didn't have a forthright knowledge agent.
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Old 10-29-2020, 09:22 PM   #78
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I think the BS being referred to was stuff your agent tried to feed you.
Exactly. The BS was where the agent claimed "You can't sell it without fixing it so you are on the hook for the full cost".

I guess I'll be waiting for an apology.
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Old 10-29-2020, 09:34 PM   #79
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I actually know of three cases, it's rural so they involved two septic issues and a well issue.

One case I knew the seller, unimproved land sold for a building site. The perc test the buyer did showed he would have to put in a more expensive septic tank then normal to meet standards ..the seller got sued and payed the buyer the extra cost of the septic. Seller never ran a perc test so he had no idea it was an issue.

The well was similar to mine, buyer bought an older farm house and has low water pressure, usable but not to modern standards. The seller was fine with the water pressure, but the buyer sued saying they wanted a new well. Seller payed half the cost of a new well.

Third case is doozey, seller bought a little lake cabin, it was clearly listed as having a "shared" well. Due to lack of due diligence the buyer didn't realize until after closing that their water supply was really a hose connected to the next door property's well. Lawyers involved and the seller had to pay half the cost of a new well. PS, I know this person (buyer) and yes they are that dumb.

I actually know one party on each of these issues so it's not hearsay. I will mention that I used the word sued as a catchall, letters between lawyers on each side were exchanged, suits were threatened ,and some type of agreement was reached. Most of these settlements were in the range of maybe 10-15K. Total costs of the repairs/upgrades in the 20-30K area. So not minor enough for small claims and very expensive as far as actually taking to court,
Since none of they went to trial then we'll never know if the buyers would have won or lost. In the all three cases I think I would have told them to pound sand and let them sue since at least based on what you wrote it doesn't sound like they had much of a case and it would have cost them more to sue than the $10-15k that they got from the sellers.

On the last one, were there well rights in the deed? In our area they typically are... if it isn't in the deed then it doesn't exist.

My lakehouse shares a spring with the neighbor (its on my property but the neighbor has deeded spring rights) and my mother' lakehouse shares a well with two other properties (she has deeded well rights to a well on a neighbor's land)... and our longtime home also has deeded rights to a well on a neighbor's land and we had no trouble with that when we sold it 8 years ago.
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Old 10-29-2020, 10:26 PM   #80
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I guess I'll be waiting for an apology.
Or, you could offer one for being sufficiently unclear as to offend him...

From my remove, I thought the same as Travelover, but then upon second reading I could tell what you meant.
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