How to generate own paycheck from assets during retirement

Can you expand on this statement? I'm not sure I see why they'd be different.
Do you mean "I'm not sure why the Asset Allocation in the 401k/IRA would be different from the AA in the brokerage accounts"?

Maybe something involving funds available in the 401k, some notions of tax efficiency, or just history and inertia?

Mostly, I didn't want to presume things that the poster already knows.
 
Do you mean "I'm not sure why the Asset Allocation in the 401k/IRA would be different from the AA in the brokerage accounts"?

Maybe something involving funds available in the 401k, some notions of tax efficiency, or just history and inertia?

Mostly, I didn't want to presume things that the poster already knows.

Oh...from this question, I think you meant that the AA is/should be different in an IRA.

I was wondering if you meant that due to the tax free nature more risk could be assigned?
 
I don't know what cefs you have in mind but mine are pretty boring. I guess the hedged portfolio concept just flew over everyone's head...

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It sounds like this is more of psychological issue than a financial issue.
I will say it was a real issue for me, since the 4% SWR for 30 year, wasn't particularly reassuring to a 40 year old retiree like myself back in 2000. Even though I had a bit more money and very similar spending to yourself.

It took me a few years of flailing during the bear market of 2000-2002 before I finally hit upon dividend and interest income as the paycheck replacement for me.

There are ongoing debates on the forum on the wisdom of dividend vs total return. I am of the opinion that it generate similar returns, with less volatility. Other believe in the efficient market hypothesis and I think I am kidding myself. But one thing dividend/income investing absolutely does better is act as a paycheck replacement.

I have a mix of individual stocks (not really recommended), bonds and ETFs typically about 40 in all. I have a spreadsheet with either their currently quarterly dividend/interest payment in the case of individual stocks/ bonds or last 12 months distribution in the case of ETF/funds. The total income the portfolio generate acts as floor for my target spending for the year. I know I can't run out of money if spend that amount.

I update the spreadsheet several times a year, with 40 ETFs/stocks/MLPs, most of whom raise dividends annually and some more often, I am always getting a raise. While individual raises are small typically $50-$100/year cumulatively they added up to several thousands a year. In fact they are even better than a raises you get while working cause you don't have to sit through the performance evaluations to get them.:dance:

Except for 2009 my income has always increased. In fact if you look at the S&P dividend distribution for the last 100 years there have been only 9 years where they have decreased by more than small (~1%) amount the last one being in 2009. I also allow myself to dip into the principal by a small amount 1% in some years like 2009,and recently to do home remodeling. A 1% reduction in principal also makes it hard to run out of money.

Two other advantages of this approach. First, is your find yourself not stressing over the market fluctuation,since you are really concerned about the income these assets produced, and not what the manic-depressive Mr. Market seems to think this assets are worth this millisecond.

Second, you will find yourself a lot less likely to have a large cash position. Even with 2.3 million assets and modest goal of $60,000 in income. You will find it difficult to generate $60,000 in income when you have $700,000 sitting around in cash earning virtually nothing.
Now whether you stick the 700K in Total stock market (VTI) generating $12,600 worth of income a year (but with higher growth potential) in Vanguard Total Bond Market (BND) generating $17,200, or Vanguard Wellseley making $22,400 is up to your risk tolerance. But in the long run, I am pretty sure you'll be better off having your money work hard for you rather trying to outsmart the Wall St types and guess when the Fed will raise interest rates, or the market will correct.
 
But one thing dividend/income investing absolutely does better is act as a paycheck replacement.

This

The total income the portfolio generate acts as floor for my target spending for the year. I know I can't run out of money if spend that amount.


This


Two other advantages of this approach. First, is your find yourself not stressing over the market fluctuation,since you are really concerned about the income these assets produced, and not what the manic-depressive Mr. Market seems to think this assets are worth this millisecond.

La verdad
 
I don't know what cefs you have in mind but mine are pretty boring. I guess the hedged portfolio concept just flew over everyone's head...

Sent from my XT1049 using Early Retirement Forum mobile app
Well perhaps you should explain it. Hedging can mean almost anything, what does it mean to you in the context that you presented it, CEFs?

Ha
 
WADR, you may be over-thinking this and fretting too much. $60k/$2.35m is only a 2.6% withdrawal rate which is very conservative so you should have no need to worry about running out of money. In bad years you might spend some principal but that is ok because there will be years where returns will exceed withdrawals and those will make up for the bad years.

Or another way, if you put aside $900k of your $2.35m and invest it so it earns just the inflation rate (0% real return) that will provide for your $60k a year living expenses for ages 55-70. From 70 on you only need $25k/year after SS and the remaining $1.45m would last you 58 years, until you are 128 years old if that stash earns only a 0% real return. You have plenty.

Since you seem quite hesitant, I think your best bet might be to put your taxable into Wellesley (VWIAX, 2.39% yield as of 2/6/2015, 7.35% 10 year return as of 1/31/2015) or something like that, set up your periodic "paycheck" as an automatic withdrawal and go enjoy your retirement.

Many of us had our retirement savings on a set it and forget it mode (other than occasional rebalancing) and a similar approach can be used in the withdrawal phase.
 
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Oh...from this question, I think you meant that the AA is/should be different in an IRA.

I was wondering if you meant that due to the tax free nature more risk could be assigned?
I don't know about different risks.

There's some thought that you keep stocks in your taxable account to take advantage of the favorable cap gains tax treatment, while keeping bonds in the tax sheltered because interest is ordinary income.

I really wasn't going there with the comment.
 
allocations and income streams are of particular interest to me and one i spent alot of time thinking about .

the one area few give thought to if married is there is a very big difference generally between how men arrive at their income stream and how most women want to especially as a single woman or widow.

it is something i call the wife factor!

structuring for income is not only going to be a personal thing unique to you but the amount of descretionary spending in your budget is a big factor as well as who are you investing for.

pulling a little draw and aiming to leave heirs a pile of money is different than investing more for yourself and a life time of income .


the less descretionary spending you have the less you should be in equities. with little area to cut spending from in downturns if need be , you can do more harm than good. if everything is a need and not a want. if you have mostley needs and very little wants in the budget i suggest avoiding the volatility and risk of equity investing if that is ones case..

you can't pay 1/2 the rent if markets fall 40% and stay down for years.

ironically it is those who need the boost the most who should do it the least in my opinion.

the more descretionary spending in the budget the more aggressive someone can be and that goes for men too.

i would never give you personal advice but i can tell you how i intend to eventually structure with the premise my wife will outlive me.

80% of married men die married while 80% of married women die alone.

that is a huge planning factor.

while i am happy doing my own investing for all our income my wife would not be.

so with her in mind the plan is to eventually lock in all our basic spending into an spia , single premium annuity and ladder them so she gets a pay check each month and cannot

out live the income stream , a big relief for her . the spia has no extra fees ,commissions or expenses other than the stated draw rate. it is like buying a cd and annuity salesmen rarely sell them . generally you have to request the product as it is something salesmen are not interested in selling, not enough of your money goes to them..

you can check out the products at immeadiateannuity.com.

that may take 25% of assets in our case..

the rest stays invested in our income and capital preservation model portfolio which runs about 37-40% equity at the moment but i will increase that to 50/50 through retirement .

that portfolio comes from a newsletter i have been following for more than 25 years. each week fidelity insight which is the newsletter sends an e-mail as to any fund swaps to nudge the portfolio better towards the big picture.

they have a few different model portfolios to choose from.

i used to use the growth model but today have about 75% in the income and preservation model and 25% in the the growth and income model. each model holds 5 or 6 different funds, all fidelity though.

eventually it will all be just the income and preservation model for simplicity with perhaps an index fund added to beef up equites by 2% a year through my retirement making the model even more inflation proof while shielding us early on from any devastating losses.


30 seconds of reading a week and nothing else for her to worry about knowing or doing except swap a fund per instructions every so often.. .

that portfolio is used for her wants , heirs and inflation adjusting.

it is called THE LMP METHOD, LIABILITY MATCHING PORTFOLIO and is something bill bernstein recommends.


most men fail to realize while they are these experienced aggressive investors most women are not nor have an interest in it.

i married a widow who was left in that situation by her first husband.

she trusted the broker at the bank and he lost 1/2 her savings in tech and dot com funds.


as if we didn't know it ,women are different creatures than men. they think different ,have different needs ,wants and requirements.

any good financial planner will tell you:

men are more interested in growing wealth , they care about allocations ,investments , getting the biggest bang for the buck ( no pun intended),beating indexes , etc .

women clients are different as far as what brought them to that planners office and it is nothing like the mans reason. a mans reason is usually facts and figures , a womens reason is she has a story to tell. ( don't they always? ha ha ha


women have very different concerns and it is usually centered around the fact they have visions of being alone eventually and being the proverbial bag lady under the bridge after they out lived their money.

women want security , I know that because when I approach women in clubs they usually call out security ,security, ha ha ha

women live longer than men , a big point when planning but more important while 80% of all men die married ,80% of all women die alone.

I think that sentence requires reading a 2nd time as there is a huge difference in situation for a woman.

women usually don't like to take on much volatility,especially a widow who just lost a social security check or someone alone..

this is crucial stuff to think about when developing that income stream and dumping it on your spouse if you die..
 
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That's a lot of effort to explain how women think and invest. From this board I know there are plenty of exceptions, including me.

I observe many folks on this board have spouses less interested, or less motivated, or more conservative about investing, and there are many reverse gender cases to what you have presented. So I don't think pigeon-holing investors by gender is particularly useful. Each of us know what type of investor we're married to and hopefully take that into account in designing our long-term plan.
 
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That's a lot of effort to explain how women think and invest. From this board I know there are plenty of exceptions, including me.
Agree, and my folks were the same. My father couldn't keep a quarter in his pocket if his life depended on it, and my mother's saving and investing has contributed greatly to her financial security today.
 
Wow - stereotype much?

I'll match your broad stereotype with my personal household.
Given his druthers my husband would have 100% of our money invested in CDs earning squat.
I handle the money. Some of his IRAs are in CDs - but the vast majority of our stash are invested in the market because I don't have that mindset.
I'm a woman.

There are several male posters here who have exceptionally large cash positions. There are several female posters who've mentioned they were very aggressive in building their stash.
 
There are several male posters here who have exceptionally large cash positions. There are several female posters who've mentioned they were very aggressive in building their stash.
You know how it is, some guys are just obsessed with the size of their cash positions and how they compare with others. :D
 
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While it may be a stereotype, it is also probably true more often than not ... the men are the ones who manage the investing and I think mathjak is wise to consider his wife's inclinations in his planning. I'm guessing that if one did a poll of forum members that a high percentage of married households would have the man managing the investing and the woman disinterested - of course there will be some exceptions... but I'm guessing 75/25 or more.

I have the same issue as mathjak in that I manage our investments and DW is quite disinterested but rather than SPIAs I had detailed instructions for DW and DS (a CPA) to follow once I'm gone that will effectively just continue what I am now doing, albeit a bit simpler.
 
rodi and MichaelB you made me laugh! Just what I was thinking on both counts!
 
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Part of my ER plan was to set up a monthly dividend income stream from a bond fund I would invest the proceeds of sale of my company stock when I left the company back in 2008. Back then, I owned fewer shares than now but they paid more dividends per share than they do now. For a while those 2 items working in opposite directions pretty much canceled each other out but now the slowly declining DPS has dominated more. I have since supplemented my monthly income stream with the quarterly dividends coming from a stock fund (taken as cash instead of reinvesting), something I had always considered when I set up my ER plan.


I recall initially it took a little getting used to just to have a monthly income stream instead of a biweekly paycheck, but I quickly got over that by doing a little more planning. I had been working part-time before tat, so it wasn't a really big deal to do some extra planning, especially when it came to the larger, "lumpier" expenses I had to make sure I built up surpluses in advance to cover.
 
women want security , I know that because when I approach women in clubs they usually call out security ,security, ha ha ha

I just had to quote this because it literally made me laugh out loud!!!


While it may be a stereotype, it is also probably true more often than not ... the men are the ones who manage the investing and I think mathjak is wise to consider his wife's inclinations in his planning. I'm guessing that if one did a poll of forum members that a high percentage of married households would have the man managing the investing and the woman disinterested - of course there will be some exceptions... but I'm guessing 75/25 or more.

I agree, it is a stereotype, but yes it appears it is true more often than not. I can admit to that as a woman, BUT, I stand proud that I am the investor/financial kingpin in this household! :biggrin: And I feel a special kinship to the women on this board as it obviously appears we are in the minority and are a unique breed.

However, in our household it isn't that my husband isn't interested nor financially inclined - quite the opposite. He is extremely good at understanding the complex topics that come up on this board. He is an engineer and has a very strong mathematical background. He is a fantastic sounding board for me - we often discuss topics, and I find his input invaluable. Many times he is able to help me with something I am having difficulty understanding. I do not make big decisions without his added analysis and input. Our financial decisions are all made together.

However, I am the detail-oriented one, the researcher, kind of like a pitbull once I set my mind to learning something...I am extremely tenacious. This makes me the strong one when it comes to laying out a plan and monitoring it - so I am the one best inclined to steer our financial ship.
 
Statistically, there are differences in the investing styles of men and women. I have read that women are less likely to make risky decisions. Different priorities does not mean better or worse.

My (now deceased) parents did not fit this gender stereotype. They kept joint accounts for household expenses (which my mother managed), but also had their own investments. My never ventured beyond bonds despite the fact that he had a DB pension. My mother maintained a large equity portfolio and watched the markets daily.
 
My mother maintained a large equity portfolio and watched the markets daily.


What a great role model for you!

My parents were quite poor and never knew anything about investing. But I learned a lot about budgeting and living on a tight budget from them - my mother was so good at stretching every penny!
 
$60,000 a year spending is modest? Really:confused:

If so, my spending isn't modest but I am a miser. Just went through 2014 expenses recently and my wife and I spent $47,000 last year not including taxes. We purchased some toys for ourselves so our spending was up. Most years it is less than $47,000.

Looks like I am running with the wrong crowd here.
 
I spent CDN$47,000 last year not including taxes. I took 5 trips, including a month in Europe. I am single. 2013 expenditures were almost identical. My budget was $55,000.
 
My wife and I have been keeping tract of our annual expenses for the last 2 years as we prepare for the big change. Totals came in at $26,000 2 yrs ago and $28,000 last year. No debt helps keep them down, along with no major purchases other than a 2 week trip last year.
 
I just had to quote this because it literally made me laugh out loud!!!




I agree, it is a stereotype, but yes it appears it is true more often than not. I can admit to that as a woman, BUT, I stand proud that I am the investor/financial kingpin in this household! :biggrin: And I feel a special kinship to the women on this board as it obviously appears we are in the minority and are a unique breed.

However, in our household it isn't that my husband isn't interested nor financially inclined - quite the opposite. He is extremely good at understanding the complex topics that come up on this board. He is an engineer and has a very strong mathematical background. He is a fantastic sounding board for me - we often discuss topics, and I find his input invaluable. Many times he is able to help me with something I am having difficulty understanding. I do not make big decisions without his added analysis and input. Our financial decisions are all made together.

However, I am the detail-oriented one, the researcher, kind of like a pitbull once I set my mind to learning something...I am extremely tenacious. This makes me the strong one when it comes to laying out a plan and monitoring it - so I am the one best inclined to steer our financial ship.


don't forget the women here or the women you see on most forums are here in this section because they do take an interest and do understand investing.

many many women do not and leave it to their husbands to set the path.

only until it is dropped in their lap they have little clue as to what they even have . odds are they will not like the volatility either now that they have to deal with it.


more and more i am seeing more planners have different strategys for men and women who have different goals.

the fact that women can live longer , die alone and tend to shun volatility more than most men can make for some difficult creative planning.

most women are more concerned wiith out living their money and or growing poorer as opposed to growing richer and beating indexes . there ar3e exceptions to exeything but odds are this is how it mostly plays out.
 
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don't forget the women here or the women you see on most forums are here in this section because they do take an interest and do understand investing.

many many women do not and leave it to their husbands to set the path.

only until it is dropped in their lap they have little clue as to what they even have . odds are they will not like the volatility either now that they have to deal with it.

I agree this is all very true and realize the women on this board appear to be the exception, not the rule. I don't have any friends who have any interest in learning about investing. And my mother-in-law was left in the same position when her husband died - she made some poor financial decisions, then contacted us AFTER the fact. :(
 
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