I admit it, I do not see the purpose in FIREcalc

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

+1.

And that is also no different from a stock investment. If I buy $100K of stock, and sell it for $100K, I don't owe any taxes either, regardless of my tax bracket. So where is this RE advantage in this regard?

I can borrow against a stock as well, if I wanted.

The Real Estate provides tax-sheltering out over my salary income.

And when you take the $100k it is not taxed.

... But you have seen where leverage can get you.

It got my family a home to live in, at each of my duty stations, and it increased my take-home salary a great deal as I was not paying income taxes on my salary, and I was still able to take the profit out tax-free when I was done.

 

[Another Reader]

How this is supposed to work is you get the property at a good price, make some improvements to make it more appealing, and rent the property at a high rent. Rather than depositing the cash flow, you refinance, and pull the equity out for purchasing other properties. If you have done this correctly, the rent pays the mortgage and the expenses of the house you borrowed against and most of your equity is freed up for reinvestment.

Rinse and repeat with the new properties, as long as the market cooperates. An appreciating market makes this easier.

I have pulled equity out of my house to do this. Because the money is being used for the acquisition and placement in service of new business assets, the interest is deductible. No $100,000 limit over the original financing. I'm paying 3.125 percent on my refinanced mortgage. or rather my tenants are. The CPA puts an explanation in the tax return so the amount is not questioned.

 

[samclem]

How this is supposed to work is you get the property at a good price, make some improvements to make it more appealing, and rent the property at a high rent. Rather than depositing the cash flow, you refinance, and pull the equity out for purchasing other properties. If you have done this correctly, the rent pays the mortgage and the expenses of the house you borrowed against and most of your equity is freed up for reinvestment.

Rinse and repeat with the new properties, as long as the market cooperates. An appreciating market makes this easier.

Like any highly leveraged investment. Buying stocks on margin works great as long as the market cooperates.

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

So let me get this straight....

You bought a property. You paid it down to zero. You took out a large loan on that property to buy your farm. The crisis hit and the value of that property dropped to a good amount less than you owed.

I do not know if the value of that property dropped at all. Nobody was buying at that time. The region population had just dropped a good deal and there was a glut of housing on the market. Realtors advised us to try a short-sale. The mortgage company refused to consider a short-sale.

... You then stopped paying on the mtg and eventually it was foreclosed and you do not have the property. And you declared BK so you would not have to pay the difference between the loan amount and the value of the property when sold.

I gave them the property and they were suing me for the value of the property. At that time I was broke and stressed.

We did not have cash to hire a lawyer, I imagine now that any lawyer would have quashed the law suit quickly. We were very stressed and just wanted it to be over.

... Do I have this right?

And you think this is a better way to invest?

Going through a bankruptcy is very stressful. I had never planned on going through one in my life.

If the lay-offs had not happened, or if we had simply stayed living in that property the bankruptcy would have never happened.

Any investment plan that includes a bankruptcy is faulty.

I have certainly made mistakes, with hindsight I know now how I could have avoided those problems. But you only live life once, you dont get to go back for do-overs.

... Also, was the money you took out of the property more than you paid for it?

We have owned four Multi-Family-Residences [MFR]. In all four cases, we took out more money from them than how much we put into them.

Our first MFR we bought when we were in college. I had GI-bill paying for college, my wife and I both had F/T jobs making Minimum-Wage. We did not have enough salary income to ever cover a mortgage payment. It was the rental income that carried that mortgage. That was our first house.

We had to make the initial down payment for the escrow account. That first mortgage was a 'first-time homeowner zero-down FHA mortgage'. We had to put like $8,000 into the escrow account.

We lived there without any of our salary income going to service the mortgage, or the property taxes/insurance.

Rinse and repeat, three more times. [though with the three later MFRs I was on Active Duty again and had a better salary income]

By the time that I was nearing retirement, we began selling properties. Putting the profits into the mortgage of one MFR that we had decided to keep to fund us in our retirement.

The day I retired from the Navy, we were down to only one MFR.

... What about depreciation? IOW, if you bought for $100K, took out a loan for $100K and had depreciated it down to $75K then you had a gain of $25K. Did you pay taxes on that? Or did you pay taxes on the forgiveness of debt??

If it had depreciated down to $75k and if it had sold for $100k, then there would have been a $25k profit subject to taxes. That is correct. But it did not sell.

I did not pay income taxes on it.

... Seems to me that besides sticking it to the bank you might have stuck it to the gvmt.

The bank got the property.

... Don't get me wrong, there are a few people on the board who have been very successful with their RE, Senator comes to mind without me looking... it does not seem that you are one of them...

I applaud you for getting to where you are, but it is not a way I would want anybody I know to go... I also applaud you for your service... I had a friend who was on a sub... not a lot of years, maybe 4 or so, but never did have a healthy relationship.... not sure if it was the sub that was the problem though... maybe subs attract a certain type of person....

Submariners are a different kind of breed. Few people can flourish in that environment, even for 4 years. Very few can survive it for 20 years.

It is hard on marriages.

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

How this is supposed to work is you get the property at a good price, make some improvements to make it more appealing, and rent the property at a high rent. Rather than depositing the cash flow, you refinance, and pull the equity out for purchasing other properties. If you have done this correctly, the rent pays the mortgage and the expenses of the house you borrowed against and most of your equity is freed up for reinvestment.

Rinse and repeat with the new properties, as long as the market cooperates. An appreciating market makes this easier.

I have pulled equity out of my house to do this. Because the money is being used for the acquisition and placement in service of new business assets, the interest is deductible. No $100,000 limit over the original financing. I'm paying 3.125 percent on my refinanced mortgage. or rather my tenants are. The CPA puts an explanation in the tax return so the amount is not questioned.

If I buy a Multi-Family-Residence for $100k. That $100k is only a number on a piece of paper. For our first MFR interest rates were high, I did the math and saw that if we made all the 30-years of payments, we would have paid $300k on the mortgage. A $100k property would have cost $300k.

Buying a $100k MFR might cost you $8,000 to get into it. From that point on, everything else is done using the rent receipts. If 10 years go by and you have paid the principal down to $60k, and you sell the property for $120k. You can walk away with $60k in your pocket. An $8k investment made you $60k.

That is a whole lot better than buying Single-Family-Residences, and having to make a monthly mortgage payment out of your pocket.

 

[Another Reader]

Like any highly leveraged investment. Buying stocks on margin works great as long as the market cooperates.

It depends on how conservative you are with your leverage. I took money out of my house to finance houses bought for cash at "fire sale" prices. Using a conservative, "as is" value (i.e. way under Zillow and Realtor.com values), my house is about 27 percent leveraged. However, looking at the total real estate portfolio, the total leverage is about 14 percent, because I never levered up the cash purchases. I have no problem covering the payment on my house and all my expenses without any rental income at all. I have cash reserves that would cover a year of all mortgage payments, including my house.

What I'm saying is you can be financially conservative and still use leverage to your advantage. It's the people that play musical chairs with it that get into trouble.

 

[aja8888]

Buying a $100k MFR might cost you $8,000 to get into it. From that point on, everything else is done using the rent receipts. If 10 years go by and you have paid the principal down to $60k, and you sell the property for $120k. You can walk away with $60k in your pocket. An $8k investment made you $60k.

You didn't make $60K because your basis was lower through depreciation expense and you would have to pay capital gains tax on the adjusted gain. How are you not paying taxes on these sales? You would also report the rental income along the way and factor that into your tax bill.

 

[BreathFree]

It depends on how conservative you are with your leverage.

This point seems to be missed in these comparisons. You can't compare a leveraged investment (real estate) to non leveraged stock and bond portfolio for survivability during a downturn.

If you owned the real estate outright, you can just as easily ride out the recession. Ask investers or traders on margin how well they held out during the recession if you want a similar comparison.

I own all - stocks, bonds, cds, and rentals so I am not taking sides. I owned the rentals during the recession and survived because I wasn't highly leveraged. I like the steady cash flow and do not have to worry about sequence of risk. I would prefer to only be invested in stocks and bonds due to the passive nature but the dividends are way to low compared to cash flow from rentals and I worry about sequence of risk while drawing down part of the principal.

 

[Texas Proud]

I do not know if the value of that property dropped at all. Nobody was buying at that time. The region population had just dropped a good deal and there was a glut of housing on the market. Realtors advised us to try a short-sale. The mortgage company refused to consider a short-sale.





I gave them the property and they were suing me for the value of the property. At that time I was broke and stressed.

We did not have cash to hire a lawyer, I imagine now that any lawyer would have quashed the law suit quickly. We were very stressed and just wanted it to be over.





Going through a bankruptcy is very stressful. I had never planned on going through one in my life.

If the lay-offs had not happened, or if we had simply stayed living in that property the bankruptcy would have never happened.

Any investment plan that includes a bankruptcy is faulty.

I have certainly made mistakes, with hindsight I know now how I could have avoided those problems. But you only live life once, you dont get to go back for do-overs.





We have owned four Multi-Family-Residences [MFR]. In all four cases, we took out more money from them than how much we put into them.

Our first MFR we bought when we were in college. I had GI-bill paying for college, my wife and I both had F/T jobs making Minimum-Wage. We did not have enough salary income to ever cover a mortgage payment. It was the rental income that carried that mortgage. That was our first house.

We had to make the initial down payment for the escrow account. That first mortgage was a 'first-time homeowner zero-down FHA mortgage'. We had to put like $8,000 into the escrow account.

We lived there without any of our salary income going to service the mortgage, or the property taxes/insurance.

Rinse and repeat, three more times. [though with the three later MFRs I was on Active Duty again and had a better salary income]

By the time that I was nearing retirement, we began selling properties. Putting the profits into the mortgage of one MFR that we had decided to keep to fund us in our retirement.

The day I retired from the Navy, we were down to only one MFR.





If it had depreciated down to $75k and if it had sold for $100k, then there would have been a $25k profit subject to taxes. That is correct. But it did not sell.

I did not pay income taxes on it.





The bank got the property.





Submariners are a different kind of breed. Few people can flourish in that environment, even for 4 years. Very few can survive it for 20 years.

It is hard on marriages.

Just to be clear.... the value of the property dropped... if nobody was buying then the value was zero....

Also, a short sale means selling at below what is owed... so right there you are saying that the value had dropped.... you do not know what the value was since you did not try and sell or get a offer from anybody...

Also, if the bank took it over and still wanted money from you, then the value had dropped to below the amount you owed when it happened... if the bank sells it for more than you owe they have to give you that excess money... if the bank sells it for less than you owe you screwed the bank... who cares if they took over the property.... this was not a SFH, but an investment property.... IOW, if you owe $500K and they take over the property and sell it for $200K then you screwed them out of $300K.... also, that $300K should be reported as income as forgiveness of debt...


I also do not see where you say you paid any taxes on any of these properties.... if you took depreciation (which you say you did by sheltering your income) then the basis was less than what you paid... so if you sold it for what you paid you have a gain...

You also say you had multiple properties... does this mean you had a number of them at the same time or did you get rid of one and buy another over and over again?



From what you say I would think you have a potential tax issue... will it ever be found by the IRS? I doubt it, but it is something I would not want hanging over my head... and if they do find it they might be able to claim fraud which means not statue of limitations.... again, probably nothing will ever happen as they would have come after you by now if they knew anything...

 

[Gumby]

Also, if the bank took it over and still wanted money from you, then the value had dropped to below the amount you owed when it happened... if the bank sells it for more than you owe they have to give you that excess money... if the bank sells it for less than you owe you screwed the bank... who cares if they took over the property.... this was not a SFH, but an investment property.... IOW, if you owe $500K and they take over the property and sell it for $200K then you screwed them out of $300K.... also, that $300K should be reported as income as forgiveness of debt...

I wouldn't say "you screwed the bank" . The bank got exactly what it bargained for in the event of default - foreclosure of the property and a deficiency judgment, which could be discharged in bankruptcy. Presumably, the bank takes into account that eventuality when it extends the loan and prices accordingly.

Also, debt discharged in bankruptcy is not taxable income. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc431

 

[Another Reader]

This point seems to be missed in these comparisons. You can't compare a leveraged investment (real estate) to non leveraged stock and bond portfolio for survivability during a downturn.

If you owned the real estate outright, you can just as easily ride out the recession. Ask investers or traders on margin how well they held out during the recession if you want a similar comparison.

I own all - stocks, bonds, cds, and rentals so I am not taking sides. I owned the rentals during the recession and survived because I wasn't highly leveraged. I like the steady cash flow and do not have to worry about sequence of risk. I would prefer to only be invested in stocks and bonds due to the passive nature but the dividends are way to low compared to cash flow from rentals and I worry about sequence of risk while drawing down part of the principal.

I own all the items on your list except bonds, of which I have a little in Wellington. I now have treasury notes as well as CD's.

My rents and occupancy went up during the downturn because so many people lost property through foreclosure or short sale but had enough income to rent or were replaced by people that moved into the area that had income. The market value of your business assets at any point in time is not important as long as they generate the necessary income.

I would also prefer to deposit passive income from dividend checks and am not interested in decumulating principal. Not going to happen with current dividend yields. Our attitudes and the assets we own are similar.

 

[haha]

Basta!

OOF is earning a living, obeying the law, and not asking any of us to support him. His plan has worked for long time, as have most of ours here. Unless some of us are going to be around for the checkered flag, I suggest we lay off the somewhat hostile grilling.

Ha

 

[Gumby]

OOF is earning a living, obeying the law, and not asking any of us to support him. His plan has worked for long time, as have most of ours here. Unless some of us are going to be around for the checkered flag, I suggest we lay off the somewhat hostile grilling.

Ha

A very good suggestion, Ha.

 

[calmloki]

nevermind

 

[harley]

OOF is earning a living, obeying the law, and not asking any of us to support him. His plan has worked for long time, as have most of ours here. Unless some of us are going to be around for the checkered flag, I suggest we lay off the somewhat hostile grilling.

Ha

I don't know. While I agree there's no point in trying to convert a real estate investor to an equity investor, getting an explanation of how the finances OOF freely offered isn't IMO hostile grilling. As far as legality, the part I'm curious about is whether taxes are being avoided. It sounds like it, not that I'd ever narc on anyone. But if they aren't being reported properly out of ignorance it could be financially devastating in the future. The things I'm reading don't make sense, although that could be just one person's way of looking at finances vs. generally accepted terminology. But the perceived hostility might just be frustration at not being able to understand the strategy proffered by the OP.

And I will be around at the checkered flag. The race ends when I run out of gas.

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

You didn't make $60K because your basis was lower through depreciation expense and you would have to pay capital gains tax on the adjusted gain. How are you not paying taxes on these sales? You would also report the rental income along the way and factor that into your tax bill.

You need to spend some every year to maintain the building, which adjusts the cost-basis back up. In theory you should be doing this roughly equal to how much you depreciate each year, roughly 1/27.5th of the cost-basis.

You are thinking of depreciation as being much faster than what it is in reality. It takes a long time.

Rent income: Regardless of how much money you put in your pocket each month, the depreciation and mortgage payments greatly reduce any taxable income.

 

[Another Reader]

I don't know. While I agree there's no point in trying to convert a real estate investor to an equity investor, getting an explanation of how the finances OOF freely offered isn't IMO hostile grilling. As far as legality, the part I'm curious about is whether taxes are being avoided. It sounds like it, not that I'd ever narc on anyone. But if they aren't being reported properly out of ignorance it could be financially devastating in the future. The things I'm reading don't make sense, although that could be just one person's way of looking at finances vs. generally accepted terminology. But the perceived hostility might just be frustration at not being able to understand the strategy proffered by the OP.

And I will be around at the checkered flag. The race ends when I run out of gas.

Gumby covered the tax implications in post #110. Yep, we are now up to over 110 thoughts on this subject.

Some of us are bipartisan. We cross the aisle and invest in both real estate and stocks... Now if we could only get certain people in Washington to be bipartisan and cross the aisle...

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

Just to be clear.... the value of the property dropped... if nobody was buying then the value was zero....

If you say so.

... Also, a short sale means selling at below what is owed... so right there you are saying that the value had dropped.... you do not know what the value was since you did not try and sell or get a offer from anybody...

We did try to sell it, did I not say that?

... Also, if the bank took it over and still wanted money from you, then the value had dropped to below the amount you owed when it happened... if the bank sells it for more than you owe they have to give you that excess money... if the bank sells it for less than you owe you screwed the bank... who cares if they took over the property.... this was not a SFH, but an investment property.... IOW, if you owe $500K and they take over the property and sell it for $200K then you screwed them out of $300K.... also, that $300K should be reported as income as forgiveness of debt...

I do not know if the bank ever managed to sell it. That has no bearing on me. That has no bearing on my taxes.

... I also do not see where you say you paid any taxes on any of these properties.... if you took depreciation (which you say you did by sheltering your income) then the basis was less than what you paid... so if you sold it for what you paid you have a gain...

Taking depreciation losses is required by law.

Those losses decrease your total taxable income.

... You also say you had multiple properties... does this mean you had a number of them at the same time or did you get rid of one and buy another over and over again?

At one time I had four MFR properties.

... From what you say I would think you have a potential tax issue... will it ever be found by the IRS? I doubt it, but it is something I would not want hanging over my head... and if they do find it they might be able to claim fraud which means not statue of limitations.... again, probably nothing will ever happen as they would have come after you by now if they knew anything...

One property manager that we had when we were stationed overseas, had a house fire and said that his books were lost in the fire. Un-able to honestly do our books for that year, we requested an audit. Overall we have been audited three times by the IRS. They are happy with our bookkeeping.

 

[pb4uski]

.... Overall we have been audited three times by the IRS. They are happy with our bookkeeping.

Then your books must be better and more complete than your explanations in this thread.

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

I don't know. While I agree there's no point in trying to convert a real estate investor to an equity investor, getting an explanation of how the finances OOF freely offered isn't IMO hostile grilling. As far as legality, the part I'm curious about is whether taxes are being avoided. It sounds like it, not that I'd ever narc on anyone. But if they aren't being reported properly out of ignorance it could be financially devastating in the future. The things I'm reading don't make sense, although that could be just one person's way of looking at finances vs. generally accepted terminology. But the perceived hostility might just be frustration at not being able to understand the strategy proffered by the OP.

And I will be around at the checkered flag. The race ends when I run out of gas.

Keep in mind that it is perfectly legal and ethical to keep multiple sets of books for the same business. Looking at transactions from different viewpoints.

My wife does this, as it was part of her college education to do so.

Different sets of books can describe the same period of time, just as how the four books of the Gospels describe the ministry of Jesus, from different viewpoints. The accounts sound entirely different, they require hundreds of manhours of study to mesh together to see a singular timeline of the events.

I lived through the timeline of my life. You guys are all asking for explanations, here and there. I am doing my best to be patient and truthful. I can not give to you a full accounting in one post. I just do not have the energy nor desire.

We did the best that we knew to do. I think that we have done pretty well.

 

[harley]

Gumby covered the tax implications in post #110. Yep, we are now up to over 110 thoughts on this subject.

Some of us are bipartisan. We cross the aisle and invest in both real estate and stocks... Now if we could only get certain people in Washington to be bipartisan and cross the aisle...

Gumby was talking about the bank and foreclosure, not taxes. I also own (and am happy with) both rentals and equities, so I am neutral in the investment aspect. I was just concerned that the OP was setting himself up for a significant problem since I couldn't understand his explanation of the tax situation. But, for the most part, I don't care. So

 

[Texas Proud]

I wouldn't say "you screwed the bank" . The bank got exactly what it bargained for in the event of default - foreclosure of the property and a deficiency judgment, which could be discharged in bankruptcy. Presumably, the bank takes into account that eventuality when it extends the loan and prices accordingly.

Also, debt discharged in bankruptcy is not taxable income. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc431

Thanks for the info.... wonder if OP filed Ch 11.....

Do you know when this became law? I do not remember these exceptions when I was doing taxes, but that was decades ago...

 

[Texas Proud]

You need to spend some every year to maintain the building, which adjusts the cost-basis back up. In theory you should be doing this roughly equal to how much you depreciate each year, roughly 1/27.5th of the cost-basis.

You are thinking of depreciation as being much faster than what it is in reality. It takes a long time.

Rent income: Regardless of how much money you put in your pocket each month, the depreciation and mortgage payments greatly reduce any taxable income.

Spending to maintain the building is current expense and does not increase the basis... seems that whoever did you taxes were not doing them correctly or not explaining them to you correctly.....


As to the value.... if you tried to sell and no offers came, then the value was down.... the whole point of value is a willing buyer and a willing seller.... when there are no willing buyers the value is reduced... IOW, you would have to reduce the price down to the level of a willing buyer and you would then know the value of the property.... it is not what you paid for it....

As an example.... when I sold my last house during the crisis I thought it was worth $135K.... but got no offers at that price.... I did get a low ball at $85K, but I was not a willing seller.... finally got an offer at $115K and sold... so the value was $20K less than I thought...

 

[Texas Proud]

Keep in mind that it is perfectly legal and ethical to keep multiple sets of books for the same business. Looking at transactions from different viewpoints.

My wife does this, as it was part of her college education to do so.

Different sets of books can describe the same period of time, just as how the four books of the Gospels describe the ministry of Jesus, from different viewpoints. The accounts sound entirely different, they require hundreds of manhours of study to mesh together to see a singular timeline of the events.

I lived through the timeline of my life. You guys are all asking for explanations, here and there. I am doing my best to be patient and truthful. I can not give to you a full accounting in one post. I just do not have the energy nor desire.

We did the best that we knew to do. I think that we have done pretty well.

It is.... but you are also required to have one method for taxes that is told to you by the tax laws and regulations..... not some wat that you choose to do it...

For your own purposes you can do whatever.... for taxes, not so much....


OH, and when I said it did not look like you paid taxes on the properties, I meant to say capital gain taxes.... IOW, when you sold you should have reported the sale on your tax return with proper basis.... I am not sure you reported anything and from a previous post I do not think you reported proper basis....

 

[Texas Proud]

One last thought....

You said you would have been OK if you had not taken out the money from the property.... that you would have lived there and rented it out (I could be mistaken as I am going by memory)....

But, if nobody was renting (I do remember this) then what rental income would you have? IOW, no income coming in to live off.... you would be living off savings.... I do not think you ever said how much you had so do not know how long you could have held out before you spent everything...

I am guessing you would have been in a bad situation and living off your pension... but you say you can live off half of that right now so maybe you could have then....