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Old 05-12-2020, 12:02 PM   #41
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IMO it's criminal how complex our tax codes are, thanks to politicians & special interests meddling. There is no reason it couldn't be a lot easier. It should be possible for the average citizen to understand and file their own taxes, but I doubt many can.
Exactly!
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Old 05-12-2020, 12:04 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by FDC319 View Post
Thanks to reading this post I have learned that I wasn't eligible to contribute to my Roth IRA in 2019. Taxes are already filed and 2020 Roth IRA is already maxed.

The "good" thing is I anticipate less income in 2020 and this won't be a problem as I'm retiring this year.

OOPS. Off to do some research to see how I can correct it with the least amount of account juggling and pain.
For 2019 I think you will find that you need to either remove the Roth IRA contribution plus earnings, or recharacterize your Roth IRA contribution plus earnings to a traditional IRA. If you elect to recharacterize, it is as though you made the contribution to your traditional IRA all along. Since you're probably not eligible to deduct the traditional IRA contribution, if I were in your shoes I would prefer to do the withdrawal. Otherwise you'd have an IRA with basis, which is a pain to track IMHO.

Since you've already made a 2020 Roth contribution, be sure to be clear with the custodian when you give them instructions that you're referring to your 2019 contribution, not your 2020 one.

After withdrawing or recharacterizing, you can amend your 2019 tax return as needed. If you recharacterize and are eligible for an IRA deduction, then you would amend to take that deduction. If you withdraw the money instead, then you wouldn't need to do anything with your 2019 tax return, but you will get a 1099-R from your IRA custodian in January 2021 which will essentially say that you owe taxes and possibly a 10% penalty on the earnings on your 2019 Roth contribution while the money was in your account.

If you're under the cutoff for 2020, you can leave the 2020 Roth contribution alone. (Or withdraw it or recharacterize it, of course.)
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Old 05-12-2020, 12:47 PM   #43
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(snip....)

I do think that Congress has gone a little too far in the sense that they have made so many things phase out, so that the progressiveness of the tax code is too extreme for middle income earners. I've commented before that for every dollar I add to my AGI, it has many different marginal rates applied simultaneously:

1. Federal income tax
2. State income tax
3. ACA subsidy phaseout, which acts like a tax (about 15%)
4. FAFSA EFC increase, which acts like a tax (about 5%)
5. Coronavirus stimulus phaseout, which acts like a tax (5%)

In addition to these four, I also have AOTC, retirement savings tax credit, and possibly others I haven't thought of.

The fact that the phaseouts are all at various AGI levels just makes the planning that much more fun. And by fun I mean difficult.

I'll reiterate the original point along with another poster from earlier: Because the tax system is so complex, there are opportunities for the diligent to save money. It would be better if this weren't the case, but it is, so we might as well take advantage as best we can.
The ACA subsidy is more of a cliff than a phaseout, a cliff which I and others here have discussed several times over the years. If your MAGI is one dollar over the max, the entire subsidy, no matter how small or big it is, disappears. It's not like the subsidy gradually decreases as your MAGI rises a little over the max.
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Old 05-12-2020, 01:14 PM   #44
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The ACA subsidy is more of a cliff than a phaseout, a cliff which I and others here have discussed several times over the years. If your MAGI is one dollar over the max, the entire subsidy, no matter how small or big it is, disappears. It's not like the subsidy gradually decreases as your MAGI rises a little over the max.
Well, as always, it depends on your AGI

For the RobbieB's of the world, yes, there is a cliff at 400% FPL.

Between 100% (*) and 400% FPL, there is indeed a phaseout which is implemented via the somewhat cryptically named "Applicable Figure" in Table 2 of the Form 8962 instructions. If one's AGI increases from, say, 150% to 300% of the FPL, then one's Applicable Figure increases, which results in a lower PTC, which is the equivalent of a marginal tax.

There can actually be a cliff at the bottom as well. I think those under 100% or 133%/138% (I never understood this stuff very well) may also lose their ACA subsidy in certain circumstances.

(*) or 133% or 138%, or whatever.

...

Also of note: Although it is disguised somewhat in the calculations, although the increased loss of PTC looks like about a 5% rate, it actually is much higher because the 5% loss rate on PTC is applied to all of AGI, not just the portion above some threshold value. This ACA PTC loss acts differently than the traditional tax brackets and other phaseouts. It depends on where your AGI falls in that 100% to 400% range, but for me the marginal tax rate works out to about 15%.
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Old 05-12-2020, 02:10 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by SecondCor521 View Post
For 2019 I think you will find that you need to either remove the Roth IRA contribution plus earnings, or recharacterize your Roth IRA contribution plus earnings to a traditional IRA. If you elect to recharacterize, it is as though you made the contribution to your traditional IRA all along. Since you're probably not eligible to deduct the traditional IRA contribution, if I were in your shoes I would prefer to do the withdrawal. Otherwise you'd have an IRA with basis, which is a pain to track IMHO.

Since you've already made a 2020 Roth contribution, be sure to be clear with the custodian when you give them instructions that you're referring to your 2019 contribution, not your 2020 one.

After withdrawing or recharacterizing, you can amend your 2019 tax return as needed. If you recharacterize and are eligible for an IRA deduction, then you would amend to take that deduction. If you withdraw the money instead, then you wouldn't need to do anything with your 2019 tax return, but you will get a 1099-R from your IRA custodian in January 2021 which will essentially say that you owe taxes and possibly a 10% penalty on the earnings on your 2019 Roth contribution while the money was in your account.

If you're under the cutoff for 2020, you can leave the 2020 Roth contribution alone. (Or withdraw it or recharacterize it, of course.)
Thanks for the detailed rundown. That is about what I was about to type up as a question to ensure I was seeing things mostly correct.

Originally I was hoping to leave it in the Roth with the potential of paying a one time penalty, but that does not look to be a possibility.

I am leaning towards asking for a recharacterization of my 2019 contribution From Roth IRA to Traditional. Execute that, and then amend the return. I appreciate the additional tip to carefully specify the 2019 contribution.

I'll give Vanguard a call tomorrow and see what they say.


*I apologize for hijacking the thread. If I have other questions, I start a new thread.
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Old 05-12-2020, 02:25 PM   #46
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Late in my Megacorp career, I was an expat for 3 years. The expat agreement included a tax equalization provision, which basically meant that Megacorp was responsible for all additional tax resulting from the assignment. In exchange, they received all benefit from the foreign tax credit on my US return, including any carry-forward balance after the assignment ended... which even included a couple years AFTER I had retired.

For those 3 years, plus 3 or 4 years afterward, Megacorp engaged one of the Big Four accounting firms to prepare our returns in both countries. This included the hypothetical stay-at-home return that I was financially responsible for, as well as all the reconciliations. That whole process was almost inconceivably complex.

I sort-of understood the hypothetical return and I had my usual Excel model to plan and keep track of our responsibility under the agreement. But the actual US tax return that they filed on our behalf was incomprehensible. There were deductions and adjustments for things I never understood even after lengthy email exchanges with the partner in charge.

One year, we had to send the return by paper due to an earlier fraudulent return using my SSN. They sent us the return for DW and I to sign and then mail. It was 95 pages long! The return for the foreign country where I was living and working was exactly one page every year... basically a percentage applied to my salary. Maybe not a fair comparison in that situation, but still... 95 pages.

Aside from that frustrating period, I've always done our taxes using TurboTax and Excel for planning and what-if's. I stay current on code changes and adjust accordingly. Forums like this keep me thinking creatively about tax reduction strategies like Roth conversions, tax-loss harvesting, HSAs, tax-efficient investing, etc. Now that I'm retired, this is sort-of fun and helps exercise the brain.
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Old 05-12-2020, 03:07 PM   #47
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If it makes you feel better, I had to file 3 state taxes this year because CA and NY require you to file taxes if you earned company equity either during the date that it was vested or exercised, and CA and NY had different calculations and different holding amounts. This meant that someone had to track multiple trips to CA 5-8 years ago and calculate what % of the total time I had been working to prorate the taxes owed to CA, and same for NY, and because these awards are vested over a 4 year period, you had to track staggered vesting schedules.

I'd vote for a flat tax.
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Old 05-12-2020, 03:15 PM   #48
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I am leaning towards asking for a recharacterization of my 2019 contribution From Roth IRA to Traditional. Execute that, and then amend the return. I appreciate the additional tip to carefully specify the 2019 contribution.
Might not be any need to amend the return, but simply file form 8606 instead.
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Old 05-12-2020, 03:48 PM   #49
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From 2016. I’ve never used a tax service, but I was guessing the % would be higher. Way more people should be able to do them my manually IMO - I’d bet they could generations ago.
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Old 05-12-2020, 05:02 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by FDC319 View Post
Originally I was hoping to leave it in the Roth with the potential of paying a one time penalty, but that does not look to be a possibility.

I am leaning towards asking for a recharacterization of my 2019 contribution From Roth IRA to Traditional. Execute that, and then amend the return. I appreciate the additional tip to carefully specify the 2019 contribution.
You're right about the lack of a one time penalty. It used to be 6% of the excess contribution per year as long as it remained an excess contribution, which is usually enough of a penalty to cause people to remove it.

I think there is a way to carry it forward and treat it as though it was a 2021 Roth contribution, but that would probably involve the 6% excess penalty for 2019 and 2020, so probably not worth it.

If you recharacterize, the nice thing is you don't have to worry about the excess earnings. The drawback is if you're not entitled to the IRA deduction on your taxes, then you have basis in your traditional IRA. Having an IRA with basis is a multiyear record keeping issue that I choose to avoid. The other option is to do the recharacterization, take whatever tax deduction you can get, and forget about the basis. You'll pay slightly more taxes when you take money out of the traditional IRA many years from now, but you won't have to bother with the accounting.

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Might not be any need to amend the return, but simply file form 8606 instead.
If FDC319 wanted to take the deduction for their 2019 traditional IRA contribution, Form 8606 would not be sufficient. This would also be true of the retirement savings contribution credit, although I suspect FDC319's income is probably too high for that.

I'm not sure if FDC319 would have to file an 8606 with the amended 2019 return - they may need to do so. FDC319, check the instructions for Form 8606.
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Old 05-12-2020, 06:13 PM   #51
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My 2 Sense' Worth.

A flat tax of 15-20% total income would allow most of us make more money thus increasing our taxes and not spending our free time trying to figure out the ever-changing tax laws to save money. D'oh.
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Old 05-12-2020, 06:26 PM   #52
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You're right about the lack of a one time penalty. It used to be 6% of the excess contribution per year as long as it remained an excess contribution, which is usually enough of a penalty to cause people to remove it.

I think there is a way to carry it forward and treat it as though it was a 2021 Roth contribution, but that would probably involve the 6% excess penalty for 2019 and 2020, so probably not worth it.

If you recharacterize, the nice thing is you don't have to worry about the excess earnings. The drawback is if you're not entitled to the IRA deduction on your taxes, then you have basis in your traditional IRA. Having an IRA with basis is a multiyear record keeping issue that I choose to avoid. The other option is to do the recharacterization, take whatever tax deduction you can get, and forget about the basis. You'll pay slightly more taxes when you take money out of the traditional IRA many years from now, but you won't have to bother with the accounting.

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Originally Posted by SevenUp View Post
Might not be any need to amend the return, but simply file form 8606 instead.
If FDC319 wanted to take the deduction for their 2019 traditional IRA contribution, Form 8606 would not be sufficient. This would also be true of the retirement savings contribution credit, although I suspect FDC319's income is probably too high for that.

I'm not sure if FDC319 would have to file an 8606 with the amended 2019 return - they may need to do so. FDC319, check the instructions for Form 8606.
Thanks all. Not eligible to deduct. Being single hurts me a lot for tax purposes.

Unless my custodian does it for me, I am definitely not interested in multi year record keeping. I'll risk paying a bit more to avoid that.

The funny thing is I shifted my investments around and deliberately took some gains in order to make it more tax efficient in retirement starting next year. I obviously missed something. Live and learn, one tax year at a time.
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Old 05-12-2020, 06:43 PM   #53
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The tax system rewards those who diligently study the rules. Since 1977, I have always prepared my own tax returns and have never had a problem.
I agree.

Dont play monopoly without reading the rules.

It is the same with income taxes.

2017 was the first year that we hired an accountant to do our taxes. We had just formed an LLC and put our properties into the LLC, we are familiar with how to fill out a 1040 with all the schedules and depreciation, etc. But we were not comfortable doing it as an LLC.

I have been retired for 19 years, I knew that eventually, we would need to shift over to using an accountant. But I still prefer to do them ourselves.
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Old 05-12-2020, 07:00 PM   #54
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Thanks all. Not eligible to deduct. Being single hurts me a lot for tax purposes.

Unless my custodian does it for me, I am definitely not interested in multi year record keeping. I'll risk paying a bit more to avoid that.
If your pre-tax IRA balance is small (even better, zero), the Backdoor Roth process might interest you.
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Old 05-12-2020, 07:20 PM   #55
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The tax system rewards those who diligently study the rules. Since 1977, I have always prepared my own tax returns and have never had a problem. ...
That's no justification for the senseless complexity of our tax system.

That's a bit like saying it's OK that the city hasn't fixed the potholes, the diligent driver has memorized where they are and will swerve to avoid them.

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...

It may be too late for some, but this post identifies many of the income limits and thresholds for 2020. You may find it helpful.

https://www.early-retirement.org/for...-a-101090.html
Given that the system is what it is, that is a very useful thread. Nice work.

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Old 05-12-2020, 07:34 PM   #56
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IMO it's criminal how complex our tax codes are, thanks to politicians & special interests meddling. There is no reason it couldn't be a lot easier. It should be possible for the average citizen to understand and file their own taxes, but I doubt many can.
Yes. I find it a bit hypocritical that our system of laws say that ignorance of the law is no excuse, but then come up with these very complex laws/regulations. If the common person is expected to understand all this, it ought to be easily understandable by the common person, who has other things going on in his life.

I'd also adjust your line: "IMO it's criminal how complex our tax codes are, thanks to politicians & politicians giving in to special interests." Special interests can't meddle w/o the politicians, at least the last time I checked the Constitution.


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Actually, what I want to do is send you a check in the mail for your bio diesel mixture. Removing ANY type of incentives from the tax code. Let tax be tax, and incentives be incentives.

As another example, forget the mortgage interest deduction. If the govt still wants to give an incentive for homebuying, then they just send you a check for $300 every month.

I realize I'm probably creating a Department of Incentives or something. AND that it would probably be just as complex as the tax code. But I would still do it.
Agreed. If the incentives are agreed to, then do it outside the tax code. Another example, I got a new furnace/AC and some replacement windows, all with tax energy credits. Why should 99% of the taxpayers who did not buy those things have to click through page after page of "did you do x,y,z this year"? I'm always afraid I'm going to click through something that I should be paying attention to.

The people who sell items with a tax credit know it, it's part of the sales pitch. So just give the new furnace owner a form to fill out for the rebate. No reason to make it part of the tax code that everyone sees. And if they really want to tie it into income levels, fine, just ask for the info from last year's 1040.

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Old 05-12-2020, 07:37 PM   #57
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My perfect tax system would be a flat personal income tax from the first dollar and a flat corporate gross receipts tax. Go ahead and roll SS/medicare into the income tax rate, no "payroll tax" on corporations - that just hides taxes from the employee/voter. Simple as can be, doesn't hide cost of government from ~40% of the voters, and doesn't penalize winners and subsidize losers in business. I'm OK with a graduated tax bracket or two for the income tax.

But that wouldn't give the politicians much to do. Oh, another benefit!

The rates required are left as an exercise for the student.
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Old 05-12-2020, 07:43 PM   #58
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That's no justification for the senseless complexity of our tax system.

That's a bit like saying it's OK that the city hasn't fixed the potholes, the diligent driver has memorized where they are and will swerve to avoid them.
-ERD50
If the size, shape, depth, and distribution of potholes didn't change every year, I'd agree with you. Just ask those with really big mortgages how they feel about recent tax law changes that limited their mortgage interest deductions, years after they bought a residence with certain assumptions. There's a reason that tax preparation professionals go to Vegas every year for an annual tax conference to learn the changes (it's not just for the gambling).
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Old 05-12-2020, 08:13 PM   #59
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My perfect tax system would be a flat personal income tax from the first dollar and a flat corporate gross receipts tax. Go ahead and roll SS/medicare into the income tax rate, no "payroll tax" on corporations - that just hides taxes from the employee/voter. Simple as can be.
Sounds good for the wage-slaves.

I am not saying the poor. But those whose mindset has been held in their slavery.

Even as a young junior sailor in the US Navy, I was surrounded by other sailors. Our take-home pay was known to all and easily determined from one glance at the rank you had on your sleeve.

But I also owned a Five-plex apartment building, and my wife was running a laundry service with five employees.

If your only source of income is a paycheck then taxes are simple. Just use the EZ form and pay the highest rate possible.

The same person could be getting his paycheck and investing or operating a business activity. How much I made was determined by my bookkeeping methods. Every business has write-offs.
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Old 05-12-2020, 08:51 PM   #60
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It is so complex, when there is a rule change, people can't even agree whether it was the rich or the poor who got the most benefit. Tax structure should be tied to the government budget, so that if spending goes up, taxes go up for everyone accordingly to cover the increase. That will help people understand what it means to change government spending or tax rules. The way it is now, most people have little choice to believe whatever, possibly inaccurate, information they are told about the budget.

Following the tax forms is very similar to stepping through a computer program, and there is no excuse for the IRS being unable/unwilling to make a website emulate those forms without involving a third party, such as Free Fillable Forms, that gets my personal information.

However, not all forms follow step by step in a logical order. For example, it used to be (maybe still is) that Line 45 (AMT) could not be completed until Line 49 (Foreign tax withheld) was done first.
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