I hate Genworth

[ProGolferWannabe]

I'm not an apologist for the LTC ins companies. But keep in mind Genworth, et. Al have to get their rate increase approved by the relevant regulators - so apparently the regulators agree that Genworth needs the rate increase to stay in business.



Apparently, the problem all the LTC companies had was that folks kept the insurance instead of dropping it after paying for many years. They probably know to the .01% how many folks will end up in the nursing home. But they couldn't model how may people would drop the coverage without using it.



So, best revenge, get old and sick and use the coverage!



Just kidding! I hope your entire pot of premiums is wasted because you don't need it. Aloha

I looked up the AM Best rating on Genworth. It is currently C++, which means (per AM Best), Genworth has “marginal ability to meet its ongoing insurance obligations”. Translation….expect more rate hikes.

I’m basically at the point where I am not seeing the insurance component of this product. If they effectively have the ability to raise rates significantly and regularly, I’m not really shifting much risk to Genworth. I’m basically the guy who is absorbing all the risk and uncertainty of future rate increases. Again, I get it…I signed up for this, but at these prices and likely future increases the policy is making less and less sense as insurance for LTC.

 

[mathjak107]

I looked up the AM Best rating on Genworth. It is currently C++, which means (per AM Best), Genworth has “marginal ability to meet its ongoing insurance obligations”. Translation….expect more rate hikes.

I’m basically at the point where I am not seeing the insurance component of this product. If they effectively have the ability to raise rates significantly and regularly, I’m not really shifting much risk to Genworth. I’m basically the guy who is absorbing all the risk and uncertainty of future rate increases. Again, I get it…I signed up for this, but at these prices and likely future increases the policy is making less and less sense as insurance for LTC.

The last time I checked Genworth had over $19 Billion in reserves set aside just to pay long term care insurance claims. Reserves are funds that are NOT counted as assets. Reserves can't be touched by creditors (or China Oceanwide). Reserves are used exclusively to pay claims.

Genworth collects about 2.5 Billion in LTCi premiums each year.
They are incurring about $1.5 Billion in LTCi claims each year.
And they have over $19 Billion in LTCi reserves (to pay future claims).

They got out of life insurance and annuities and the company is doing much better

https://www.thinkadvisor.com/2022/05/06/genworth-rethinks-long-term-care-market-return/

 

[Koolau]

I looked up the AM Best rating on Genworth. It is currently C++, which means (per AM Best), Genworth has “marginal ability to meet its ongoing insurance obligations”. Translation….expect more rate hikes.

I’m basically at the point where I am not seeing the insurance component of this product. If they effectively have the ability to raise rates significantly and regularly, I’m not really shifting much risk to Genworth. I’m basically the guy who is absorbing all the risk and uncertainty of future rate increases. Again, I get it…I signed up for this, but at these prices and likely future increases the policy is making less and less sense as insurance for LTC.

Keep in mind that regulators have the final say on whether rate hikes are "appropriate." No, they don't want insurance companies to go out of business (lots of worse issues there) but neither do they give carte blanche just to prop up investor dividends. They want the insurance company to stay in business - not necessarily be "successful" vs other insurance companies. Now, I have no citation for this, but it is my understanding - which could be wrong. Heh, heh, I guess there can be "bad" regulators just like there can be "bad" insurance companies, so YMMV.

 

[mathjak107]

The problem was most insurers went by old statistics from a generation ago . Policicys were under priced badly .

Not only was my parents generation more likely to be cared for at home but the stats were undercounted .

Many like my dad required nursing home care but were actually taken in by health care workers in to their homes and given 24/7 care .

This was big in florida where my dad was .

But all these people were not counted as being in a nursing home …

So usage was far greater .

They under estimated the fact that people who have insurance will tend to use that insurance rather then seek care from their kids .

So many families were busted up because when a parent needed care , one sibling stepped up to the plate , taking a financial and social hit while his siblings stepped back .

This was a story that repeated over and over as siblings would stop talking to each other over it .

If one was married the wife of the care giving family would usually complain about why are we taking the hit and your brothers and sisters do nothing .

That never ended well either .

So those who have insurance tend to use it

 

[ProGolferWannabe]

The last time I checked Genworth had over $19 Billion in reserves set aside just to pay long term care insurance claims. Reserves are funds that are NOT counted as assets. Reserves can't be touched by creditors (or China Oceanwide). Reserves are used exclusively to pay claims.

Genworth collects about 2.5 Billion in LTCi premiums each year.
They are incurring about $1.5 Billion in LTCi claims each year.
And they have over $19 Billion in LTCi reserves (to pay future claims).

They got out of life insurance and annuities and the company is doing much better

https://www.thinkadvisor.com/2022/05/06/genworth-rethinks-long-term-care-market-return/

You neglect to talk about their obligations/liabilities. They may have $19 billion in reserves but $1 trillion in liabilities. I have no idea what the figures are, but I’ll trust AM Best, not you.

 

[mathjak107]

Genworth's parent company, Genworth Financial, has a B rating from AM Best, which gives Genworth better overall financial backing than their independent score indicates.

They also are no longer writing new ltc policies


Here are their financials

https://genworth2014.q4web.com/inve...nces-Fourth-Quarter-2021-Results/default.aspx

 

[Spock]

I thought once you started using the policy you no long paid the premiums?

Depending on the print in your policy, that is only true for "skilled nursing care". Since he's in Assisted Living he still has to pay the premiums.

 

[mathjak107]

We got a notice yesterday from gensworth .

There will be a 69% increase in our partnership plan over the next two years .

The two of us will go from 7800 a year to 13,182 .

Usage is exceeding all the insurers wildest dreams based on stats from a generation ago since boomers were not in that stage yet to be in the sweet spot when rates were predicted

 

[Chuckanut]

The LTC insurance market appears to be broken. At least it does to me.

What I would like to buy is a LTC policy with a very long waiting period of a year or more before it kicks in. Their version of high deductible medical or car insurance. Since most LTC stays are well under two years, I would think such a policy can be offered on a more affordable basis .

But, I am certainly no expert on insurance of any type. Maybe some of the insurance mavens on this site can explain why we don't see more LTC policies with a very long waiting periods before they kick in.

 

[athena53]

Our estate attorney said the biggest bulk of his clients are the self insurers….

The stay at home spouse realizes now that one of them needs care the stay and the stay at home spouse realizes they can be impoverished all too easy and goes in to panic mode .

Yes- that's the scary scenario and the reason I have no intention of remarrying unless the guy can provide for his own LTC.

I'm happy with my decision to self-insure and my advisor's Monte Carlo simulation shows I'll be OK even in LTC. I do NOT have "LTC reserves" set aside in conservative investments but between SS and a couple of pensions I have $67K/year coming in. The remainder could be funded by an orderly liquidation of investments.

 

[mathjak107]

The LTC insurance market appears to be broken. At least does to me.

What I would like to buy is a LTC policy with a very long waiting period of a year or more before it kicks in. Their version of high deductible medical or car insurance. Since most LTC stays are well under two years, I would think such a policy can be offered on a more affordable basis .

But, I am certainly no expert on insurance of any type. Maybe some of the insurance mavens on this site can explain why we don't see more LTC policies with a very long waiting periods before they kick in.

Since these are partnership plans we have only a small latitude to change things before you lose partnership status .

I was able to reduce the daily amount down a bit to save 2k a year on the two policies

 

[Chuckanut]

Yes- that's the scary scenario and the reason I have no intention of remarrying unless the guy can provide for his own LTC.

Single guy here. And I agree with your decision. It's tough enough being a care giver without having to drain one's personal finances. I won't marry or live with a gal (assuming I find one who will have me) unless she is financially independent and that includes LTC.

Financially independent does not mean she has to be wealthy. But, she must be able to live her life without depending on support from me. Financial dependence, especially when both have children from a previous marriage, can be a real sore point. Enough said.

Oh, +1 on having pension and SS income as part of the LTC plan. One reason I am a SS at 70 type of guy is to have that certainty of that bigger check to put towards LTC costs if needed.

 

[Koolau]

Yes- that's the scary scenario and the reason I have no intention of remarrying unless the guy can provide for his own LTC.

I'm happy with my decision to self-insure and my advisor's Monte Carlo simulation shows I'll be OK even in LTC. I do NOT have "LTC reserves" set aside in conservative investments but between SS and a couple of pensions I have $67K/year coming in. The remainder could be funded by an orderly liquidation of investments.

I think if I had it to do over, I'd self insure. Having said that, I've paid in a long time so that my premiums NOW seem like a pretty good deal for me. This isn't the old "sunk cost" argument. It really is a "good deal" based of my increasing likelihood of needing the service. I think that's why the premiums are increasing. Folks like me hung on and the insurance companies did not expect that. YMMV

 

[harllee]

DH and I are self insuring but we are moving into a CCRC (Continuing Care Community) soon that is part of our Long Term Care plan. The CCRC we have chosen is the Type A "Life Care" kind. You pay a fairly high entrance fee and a monthly fee. The monthly fee does not go up when you move from independent living to assisted living, skilled nursing or memory care. So there is no need for LTC insurance. To get in the CCRC you have to be able live independently and pass physical and cognitive tests. We are in our early 70s and we plan to move in next Spring. The place we are moving to has a long waiting list. We have been on the waiting list for a about 10 years and are now at the top of the list.

 

[Koolau]

DH and I are self insuring but we are moving into a CCRC (Continuing Care Community) soon that is part of our Long Term Care plan. The CCRC we have chosen is the Type A "Life Care" kind. You pay a fairly high entrance fee and a monthly fee. The monthly fee does not go up when you move from independent living to assisted living, skilled nursing or memory care. So there is no need for LTC insurance. To get in the CCRC you have to be able live independently and pass physical and cognitive tests. We are in our early 70s and we plan to move in next Spring. The place we are moving to has a long waiting list. We have been on the waiting list for a about 10 years and are now at the top of the list.

We looked into a CCRC. They pushed pretty hard to get "on the list." In the mean time, we find that we would no longer qualify due to health reasons. SO, if you plan on a CCRC, you probably need to pull the trigger sooner than later. YMMV

 

[harllee]

We looked into a CCRC. They pushed pretty hard to get "on the list." In the mean time, we find that we would no longer qualify due to health reasons. SO, if you plan on a CCRC, you probably need to pull the trigger sooner than later. YMMV

Yes, you have to be in very good shape both mentally and physically to qualify to get in most CCRCs. They want people who are able to live independently for a number of years. As for the "pushy" part I guess that depends on whether they have vacancies to fill. The one we are moving into is not pushy at all. They don't have to be --they have a very long wait list.

 

[Koolau]

Yes, you have to be in very good shape both mentally and physically to qualify to get in most CCRCs. They want people who are able to live independently for a number of years. As for the "pushy" part I guess that depends on whether they have vacancies to fill. The one we are moving into is not pushy at all. They don't have to be --they have a very long wait list.

Both of the ones we looked at had waiting lists and we were strongly encouraged to get on the lists. YMMV

 

[aja8888]

Both of the ones we looked at had waiting lists and we were strongly encouraged to get on the lists. YMMV

Yes, the one thing about waiting lists is the people who rely on the steady stream of income want that is to stay long at all times.

 

[gayl]

Single ....+1 on having pension and SS income as part of the LTC plan.

Ditto.

 

[TheWizard]

I thought once you started using the policy you no long paid the premiums?

Apparently not!

 

[ncbill]

DH and I are self insuring but we are moving into a CCRC (Continuing Care Community) soon that is part of our Long Term Care plan. The CCRC we have chosen is the Type A "Life Care" kind. You pay a fairly high entrance fee and a monthly fee. The monthly fee does not go up when you move from independent living to assisted living, skilled nursing or memory care. So there is no need for LTC insurance. To get in the CCRC you have to be able live independently and pass physical and cognitive tests. We are in our early 70s and we plan to move in next Spring. The place we are moving to has a long waiting list. We have been on the waiting list for a about 10 years and are now at the top of the list.

Just be aware there's no guarantee you'll be getting skilled care actually at the CCRC.

Here the CCRC where my grandparents lived for 20 years tore down their existing SNF unit & rebuilt it with all private rooms, which cut the capacity in half.

Meanwhile the CCRC also built a multi-story building for independent/assisted living apartments, adding at least another 100 units feeding into that SNF.

So whenever the SNF fills up the next CCRC resident who needs skilled care gets farmed out to one of the stand-alone nursing homes here locally.

And those have most residents on Medicaid which biases care standards for everyone there...downwards.

 

[Koolau]

Just be aware there's no guarantee you'll be getting skilled care actually at the CCRC.

Here the CCRC where my grandparents lived for 20 years tore down their existing SNF unit & rebuilt it with all private rooms, which cut the capacity in half.

Meanwhile the CCRC also built a multi-story building for independent/assisted living apartments, adding at least another 100 units feeding into that SNF.

So whenever the SNF fills up the next CCRC resident who needs skilled care gets farmed out to one of the stand-alone nursing homes here locally.

And those have nearly every resident on Medicaid which biases care standards for everyone there...downwards.

When I toured a CCRC here on the mainland, we were only allowed to stick our heads in the skilled-care area. It appeared to have a total of 12 or so beds. They were all full and not one of the people was awake/aware at 1:00 in the afternoon. There were no staff visible though I assume there was an office area.

It was a warehouse for those still living but just barely. The CCRC had hundreds of residents, so I'm guessing lots of skilled-care had been farmed out. NOT where I would want to end my days, but I guess many of us will have little choice in such matters. YMMV

 

[harllee]

Just be aware there's no guarantee you'll be getting skilled care actually at the CCRC.

Here the CCRC where my grandparents lived for 20 years tore down their existing SNF unit & rebuilt it with all private rooms, which cut the capacity in half.

Meanwhile the CCRC also built a multi-story building for independent/assisted living apartments, adding at least another 100 units feeding into that SNF.

So whenever the SNF fills up the next CCRC resident who needs skilled care gets farmed out to one of the stand-alone nursing homes here locally.

And those have most residents on Medicaid which biases care standards for everyone there...downwards.

I am sure that can happen but the CCRC we are moving to has a very nice skilled nursing facility, i have been through it several times. It has many beds and right now is 50% full. No Medicaid is taken. The contract at our CCRC (Plan A Life Care) provides that if there is no skilled, memory or assisted living room available when a resident needs it, then the CCRC must find the resident an equivalent place and pay for it until a place at the CCRC opens up. There are no guarantees but I have reviewed this CCRC carefully and feel good about it. It is the best one in our area.

 

[rtroxel]

I dropped my Genworth coverage about 15 months ago, due to the constant increase in payments. Although Genworth still holds all the money I have paid them, I have never received a statement from them as to exactly how much that amount is.

Should I contact them to find out? Has anyone here done that? If so, were they cooperative?

Thanks,

Roy in New Mexico

 

[Sunset]

I dropped my Genworth coverage about 15 months ago, due to the constant increase in payments. Although Genworth still holds all the money I have paid them, I have never received a statement from them as to exactly how much that amount is.

Should I contact them to find out? Has anyone here done that? If so, were they cooperative?

..

What would be the usefulness of finding out you paid them $X dollars ?