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Old 01-19-2021, 01:43 PM   #61
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To be clear on the current eviction moratorium - tenants do have to sign a single page legal document and submit it to the landlord/property manager.

eg
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ation-form.pdf

They are legally stating they are unable to pay because of covid and have tried everything including applying for any support.

If this is not submitted they are not protected against eviction (but no courts are processing right now). Also if they are later taken to court and found it was untrue then they have the criminal side to deal with as well as eviction and debt potentially.

So things are going to get very ugly at some point.
I'm literally willing to bet the farm no one will suffer criminal charges due to non eviction...as far as debt, try actually collecting that back rent. Now it will ding them for renting in the future but about all the negative I can see right now.
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Old 01-19-2021, 01:56 PM   #62
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I guess they figure 100% of landlord/owners are heartless and 100% of tenants are completely honest//

Just curious would you feel better or more inclined to work with a tenant that was in dire straits. From reading your posts here, I feel like you are a pretty understanding person. But some state governments paints all landlords with the same dirty brush.
Absolutely would prefer to be working with a hard up tenant. Grinds my gears that most of our tenants are doing their best and our deadbeat has a government pass to keep her rent money in her pocket, putting her hundreds of dollars ahead of the tenants who are trying each month.
That said, there are more tenants than landlords - do you shunt the speeding trolley over the mayor or the ten person rail gang? And who has more power normally - the landlord or the tenant? Shouldn't government be a shield for the weak? And who is typically in better shape financially and less likely to end up homeless - tenant or landlord?

Not in love with all government regs and laws, but am willing to believe that legislators are trying to do good - easier than thinking they are willfully trying to screw me over.
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Old 01-19-2021, 02:06 PM   #63
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Absolutely would prefer to be working with a hard up tenant. Grinds my gears that most of our tenants are doing their best and our deadbeat has a government pass to keep her rent money in her pocket, putting her hundreds of dollars ahead of the tenants who are trying each month.
That said, there are more tenants than landlords - do you shunt the speeding trolley over the mayor or the ten person rail gang? And who has more power normally - the landlord or the tenant? Shouldn't government be a shield for the weak? And who is typically in better shape financially and less likely to end up homeless - tenant or landlord?

Not in love with all government regs and laws, but am willing to believe that legislators are trying to do good - easier than thinking they are willfully trying to screw me over.
There certainly are bad landlords and bad tenants, I wouldn't say willfully screw over...but any empathy that government had for landlords seems to be diminishing everyday. Which of course could eventually lead to people not wanting to be landlords anymore. Which hurts people who need to rent.
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Old 01-19-2021, 02:14 PM   #64
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How do you know they cannot pay? Has she told you that?
Yes, she did.

Back in March when it all hit the fan (and after she refused my offer) she told me that the two units informed her that they were unable to pay.

She's an idiot, and told them, "well, pay me what you can, when you can...maybe do some work cleaning up the yard" adding "I'm already broke and the only reason I converted the place to low income was to help people...I'm a good person you know".

She felt --last March--that "this Covid thing" will be over in a month or two and "the kids will get back to work".
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Old 01-19-2021, 02:25 PM   #65
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<rant>
Perhaps I've rented in very competitive markets (Boston and San Diego), but I have clear memories of the money-grubbing, dangerous things our landlords did over the years:

Install an extended-seat toilet that's too big for the bathroom, then leave us toilet-less overnight while you return it? Check.
Inform us that you're building an unasked-for, minuscule plywood balcony while we're living in the unit? And then raise the rent because we have a new "amenity"? Check.
Replace a flat roof in Southern CA with black tar, but you're too cheap to gravel it or paint it white? Check.
Illegally subdivide the basement for too many tenants, and provide one mode of egress? Wire the hallway light with lamp cord run through a hole in wood paneling? Check.
Let ice dams build over the fire escape door until it's frozen shut? Check.

We're going to be renting temporarily after we list our San Diego condo, which should sell somewhere in the $550-600K range. I'm not looking forward to being treated like an idiot renter again, but at least we have a plan to purchase when we find the right place. </rant>
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Old 01-19-2021, 03:05 PM   #66
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I have some issues with tenants taking advantage of the eviction moratorium. Thank goodness most continue to pay. My goal is to liquidate ASAP. I recently sold some Iíve held for a while and by the time I factor in capital gains, depreciation recapture, net investment tax and state capital gains tax, I am paying a massive amount of tax which is a huge disincentive to sell. What are you doing as landlords to shelter the gains? Iíve looked into opportunity zones, DSTs and 1031 exchanges but trying to do an exchange is tough in this sellerís market since the fundamentals donít work and given that I am selling one at a time. I am renovating and selling so with 1031 exchange or DST, I canít get any of my renovation cost out. Getting out of real estate investment held for a long time is not very easy.
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Old 01-19-2021, 03:28 PM   #67
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The view of landlords is being driven by the view of income inequality. Landlords are are 'haves", renters are the 'have nots". My guess is that the typical renter looks on their landlord as at least a millionaire, to whom missing a couple of months rent should not be a big deal. When was the last time you saw an extended new report/documentary on the trials and tribulations of being a landlord with problem tenants, vs one sympathetic to someone about to or being evicted (and saying little about the eviction reasons)?
I was always surprised to see this attitude among my co-w*rkers at Megacorp. There were NO poor folk w*rking there. Relatively few rented. It was especially true among the hourly folks who, with a few hours of OT made more than I did - even when I was w*rking 60 hour weeks. The attitude seemed to be that if you had more or made more, somehow you didn't deserve it. I suppose the old green-eyed monster permeates all of society - even those working at Megacorp.

While there are some really nasty landlords out there, my guess is that most just want to receive a decent ROI. NOT receiving rent (with no recourse) could quickly ruin an otherwise good business plan. YMMV
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Old 01-19-2021, 06:55 PM   #68
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I have some issues with tenants taking advantage of the eviction moratorium. Thank goodness most continue to pay. My goal is to liquidate ASAP. I recently sold some Iíve held for a while and by the time I factor in capital gains, depreciation recapture, net investment tax and state capital gains tax, I am paying a massive amount of tax which is a huge disincentive to sell. What are you doing as landlords to shelter the gains? Iíve looked into opportunity zones, DSTs and 1031 exchanges but trying to do an exchange is tough in this sellerís market since the fundamentals donít work and given that I am selling one at a time. I am renovating and selling so with 1031 exchange or DST, I canít get any of my renovation cost out. Getting out of real estate investment held for a long time is not very easy.
Have the same problems with selling - and then tack on the sales commission and title search/escrow/filing fees etc - and crediting the buyer at closing with all tenant deposits, and THEN look at what you can put any leftover sales proceeds into and what the return will be - oh, and the whole selling problem including dickering with buyers and a appraisals and repairs/corrections to suit appraisers and inspectors.

The guy who bought our 9-unit did what seemed really smart: he cash out sold a rental house and did a 1031 into our apartments, using his sale proceeds as the down payment. Boom. no tax but 9 units instead of 1 to appreciate and deliver more rental income. He also has a management company handling it, which means way less profit for him, but maybe less stress? We're trying to divest at this point in our lives, but it seemed smart if you have the juice to do it and grow your rental fleet.

Maybe 1031 into a nice house in a no/low state tax state and AirB&B it for a couple years, then move in and live there a while before selling?
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Old 01-19-2021, 08:48 PM   #69
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Yup. Kind of like support animals getting a pass in Oregon or asserting that your taxes are true and correct. Except the IRS can make you prove your assertion and landlords need to accept statements as true. The vast majority of our tenants do their very best to meet the terms of our contract. This tenant just isn't paying and the state believes most in that position simply can't and that it would be wrong to have them sleeping on the sidewalk vs. having a landlord be a bit lower income.
I know that you can't evict her, but can you report her non-payment to the credit agencies? If so, you might hold that over her head... sort of, I know you are able to pay and are gaming the system and while I can't evict you I can do this and will if you don't pay up.

BTW, I would not do this to someone who lost their livelihood as a result of covid-19 and legitimately can't pay their rent.
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Old 01-19-2021, 08:57 PM   #70
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Have the same problems with selling - and then tack on the sales commission and title search/escrow/filing fees etc - and crediting the buyer at closing with all tenant deposits, and THEN look at what you can put any leftover sales proceeds into and what the return will be - oh, and the whole selling problem including dickering with buyers and a appraisals and repairs/corrections to suit appraisers and inspectors.



The guy who bought our 9-unit did what seemed really smart: he cash out sold a rental house and did a 1031 into our apartments, using his sale proceeds as the down payment. Boom. no tax but 9 units instead of 1 to appreciate and deliver more rental income. He also has a management company handling it, which means way less profit for him, but maybe less stress? We're trying to divest at this point in our lives, but it seemed smart if you have the juice to do it and grow your rental fleet.



Maybe 1031 into a nice house in a no/low state tax state and AirB&B it for a couple years, then move in and live there a while before selling?


Youíve nailed the frustrations. I have updated some of the ones I sold and Iíve found buyers in my neck of the woods to be most unreasonable. They make crazy demands once they have you locked into a contract after they do their inspections. Iíve been able to not give in to all of them because I am not using loans to renovate. My plan is to do something similar to what you suggested - 1031 into a nicer place, furnish and do short- term rentals then move in a few years later.
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Old 01-22-2021, 04:37 PM   #71
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I was pretty lucky. I let my renter defer for a couple of months and also allowed him to do some work around the house until they got back on their feet.



I'm not hopeful for a friend who have renters that haven't paid in a while. I suspect some one them will either not be able to pay it back or in some small cases, not willing. Unfortunately, there are some out there who believe the landlords will either get a bail out or just push the onus to the landlord to pressure the bank or the government for some sort of forgiveness
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Old 01-22-2021, 04:38 PM   #72
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Assuming the Rent not paid for several months due to Covid and hardship. What are the odds of ever collecting the back rent? Will the tenants get some GOVT relief on the back rent or have to move and find a new landlord will to accept the bad credit for the Covid reason. Its going to be a mess. Landlords could be forclosed on too.. I suspect bankruptcy courts will be the winners.
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Old 01-22-2021, 04:47 PM   #73
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Assuming the Rent not paid for several months due to Covid and hardship. What are the odds of ever collecting the back rent? Will the tenants get some GOVT relief on the back rent or have to move and find a new landlord will to accept the bad credit for the Covid reason. Its going to be a mess. Landlords could be forclosed on too.. I suspect bankruptcy courts will be the winners.
See bold. Interesting thought. If the bank forecloses, then they "own" the tenant, that is not paying, and can't be evicted. I suspect banks will be "lenient" for the time being.

FWIW, I am not a landlord and know next to nothing about the laws in this regard.
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Old 01-22-2021, 05:41 PM   #74
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I'm not a lawyer but I'm a landlord who has had to do more evictions in the past than I would have liked. Here is how I see all this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain3d View Post
To be clear on the current eviction moratorium - tenants do have to sign a single page legal document and submit it to the landlord/property manager.
eg
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ation-form.pdf

They are legally stating they are unable to pay because of covid and have tried everything including applying for any support.

If this is not submitted they are not protected against eviction (but no courts are processing right now). Also if they are later taken to court and found it was untrue then they have the criminal side to deal with as well as eviction and debt potentially.

So things are going to get very ugly at some point.
+1 on the fact that tenants must sign the form declaring the hardship - which is (per the form) "under penalty of perjury". Some evictions can go forward (like lease violations). Here's one FAQ page that was produced for renters in Georgia, which affirms that evictions can still happen depending on the circumstances:
https://legalfaq.org/covid/ga

For the statement that "no courts are processing right now", that likely varies from state to state and perhaps even county to county. For instance, in Georgia, here's one court system's home page:
https://gwinnettcourts.com/
Basically, one can e-file various types of documents, and my understanding is that most cases get handled via Zoom (or Webex, etc) calls.

I have talked to one landlord who did an eviction in November (2020), against a tenant for non-payment of rent where the tenant had not filled out the covid declaration form.

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Originally Posted by NgineER View Post
1 of 11 not paying rent since August. We were able to secure rent payments from our county and the CARES act. That ended in December however. We canít evict or terminate the lease even though she is month to month. Trying to get her to pay while not making her mad since that could cause her to trash the place. Hoping that if there is a continuation of the eviction moratorium that there will be some money for landlords again.
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Are you saying that you can't ask someone to leave when their lease is up? That just doesn't seem right (which doesn't mean it is not true!). Can the Government really force individuals to modify contracts after they have been agreed to?
-ERD50
The way I read NgineER's post, the tenant already stopped paying rent for some time (due to covid). So using the "staying past end of lease" reason to evict the tenant very likely would be thrown out by a judge since it would be a backdoor way of evicting them because they aren't paying rent.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean in general that "you can't ask someone to leave when their lease is up". If you have some reason other than non-payment due to covid for wanting them to leave (e.g., you're re-purposing the house, the tenant is already trashing the place and you have pictures from a recent visit to prove it, etc), then the landlord should be able to evict.

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Oregon landlord here. Our eviction freeze is a bit more rigorous than the Feds. We are lucky to own all our property, so no mortgages, and mostly are in small apartments as rentals. However. We have a tenant who is working but has paid two half months worth of rent from May through now, so 8 months of missing rent currently. Can't evict her till June 30, and that assumes the Oregon eviction moratorium isn't extended again. Probably will be a pretty good backlog in the court system then, so add some more months..
We do need to keep up the property tax payments, fire and liability insurance, water and sewer bills, outside lighting and maintenance.
Know what though? I wouldn't want to trade places with my tenant, and when I think of the businesses that are forced to close or the employees who are trying to make it on a whole bunch of nothing I feel very very fortunate.
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Yup. Kind of like support animals getting a pass in Oregon or asserting that your taxes are true and correct. Except the IRS can make you prove your assertion and landlords need to accept statements as true. The vast majority of our tenants do their very best to meet the terms of our contract. This tenant just isn't paying and the state believes most in that position simply can't and that it would be wrong to have them sleeping on the sidewalk vs. having a landlord be a bit lower income.
West-coast states like Oregon and California are notorious for having laws that are very tenant-friendly, so I'm not surprised that Oregon has an eviction freeze that is "more rigorous than the Feds". And it may well be that under Oregon law, "landlords need to accept statements as true."

But for the federal covid hardship declaration, I expect that there could be some things a landlord could do to verify whether a tenant is working or not. E.g. - on the rental application I use, the tenant had to provide contact information for his job and sign a statement that automatically authorized me to contact his work to verify employment. If I were to re-verify employment NOW and get something like an affidavit from a boss or other affirmation from the employer that the tenant is in fact working, but the tenant still signed the form indicating "under penalty of perjury" that they are *not* working, I expect that the tenant would be in hot water in court. If the tenant got tongue-tied in court trying to explain to the judge the evidence of continued employment, the judge could very likely still allow the eviction.

But to reiterate, that's what I think would happen in my state working under the federal covid laws. Oregon may have other hoops to jump through to get the tenant evicted under their covid rules.
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Old 01-22-2021, 05:51 PM   #75
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I currently have 3 properties that I carry the mortgage on at 5% each, they are doublewide trailers on property. I have a third party collect the payments, it's pretty much passive income. I could do better but I like this arrangement because it helps the buyer too, and it's a good stable income stream. One guy ends up paying a $50 late fee every month, so that's nice for me. He could easily pinch pennies for a month or two if he has to and then start paying on time, but he just doesn't care to I guess.
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Old 01-22-2021, 06:49 PM   #76
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Yes, she did.

Back in March when it all hit the fan (and after she refused my offer) she told me that the two units informed her that they were unable to pay.

She's an idiot, and told them, "well, pay me what you can, when you can...maybe do some work cleaning up the yard" adding "I'm already broke and the only reason I converted the place to low income was to help people...I'm a good person you know".

She felt --last March--that "this Covid thing" will be over in a month or two and "the kids will get back to work".

Thanks for the update and clarification. It is unfortunate. At the time many were hoping that these policies would just needed for a few months. I will not say anything more, steering clear of politics.
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Old 01-22-2021, 06:50 PM   #77
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As someone who is a landlord myself but has zero issues with tenants taking advantage of the forbearance options I will say this.....


There has been a LOT of rhetoric about this pro and con. But frankly one just has to look at the data to understand that 10 months into this for the most (not all) part, tenants are NOT taking advantage of the forbearance even when legally they could.

Kind of a nice statement about humanity.
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Old 01-22-2021, 09:47 PM   #78
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So far no affect, keeping my fingers crossed.
Have in the pre-Covid days, had late rental payments, but tenant warns me, and does pay maybe a week late.

Reality is, now that we are retired, I'll be happy to sell off my rental property as I don't need the mental hassle and mental worry. I'll put the money into an ETF and take long vacations without thinking someone may email me about a plugged toilet.
WE sold our last rental 10.2020. as tenants left since around 2008 we sold them.

worked out great for us. we are retired and have all we need and enough dollars to travel all we want.
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Old 01-23-2021, 01:20 AM   #79
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Yes but there are city ordinances against such rentals in a lot of places. Also if condos are in your portfolio many limit leases to a minimum of 1 year.
Yes, in my town short term rentals are allowed only in select developments.

This thread makes me think that there are going to be alot of rentals on the market in the near future. I guess that may help loosen up some tight housing markets.
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Old 01-23-2021, 04:44 AM   #80
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Wow. I can at least understand the intentions behind a moratorium on eviction for non-payment, if the renter lost their income due to COVID. But a lease has a time limit, agreed to by both parties. The landlord might have been thinking of selling, or moving in themselves, or tearing it down at the end of the lease, any number of possibilities. I just don't see why the pandemic should change that aspect of the agreement.

In fact, I know someone who ran into this issue. Due to a death in the family (the "bread winner"), they decided to sell their primary residence, and planned to move into a rental that they owned when that lease was up. Fortunately, the renters were looking to move at that time anyhow, so there was no conflict, but it could have put them in a bind, on top of dealing with their loss. And by moving into the rental, they can start unwinding some of the tax implications from the time it was a business property. Since they really could not afford to live in their old house, this would have been complicated.



Another "Wow!". IIRC, several of the landlords who post here were saying that the credit score was the one thing they could use w/o fear of being hit with a discrimination charge (or at least it wouldn't stick). It was a number, use the same criteria for everyone and you are deemed to be "fair".

Now they are taking that away? Being a landlord never appealed to me anyhow, but this is really getting into some strange territory.

I never liked the idea of rent controls either. I've never seen a case where any sort of price fixing didn't create more problems that it was supposed to solve. I guess I'd rather see the Govt give direct support to the people who need it, than to get in the middle of a free market exchange. That just seems like a complicated ends to a means.

-ERD50
The rumbling I'm hearing around here in MD is not being able to deny a potential Section 8 tenant on the basis of 'discrimination on source of income'. I think it's already a law in Baltimore City. Talk about crazy! That might be the time I get out of it. We can also be sued if a tenant's dog bites someone. It's ridiculous how more and more responsibilities of the tenant can be placed upon a landlord.
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