Investing in Education for Early Retirement

[38Chevy454]

Quote:

Originally Posted by photoguy So even if you graduate engineering from an accredited school in CA you have to pass a technical test (instead of just a relatively easy eng. ethics & professional behavior test)? Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

Htown Harry pretty much nailed it. Professional Engineer (PE) is an official title, like a CPA is to accounting. Lot of engineers can work as engineer without the PE license, but some positions require it. Having a PE only demonstrates that you have met a certain standard, and went through the formal process as required by the state to get it. Lot of engineers do very good work and do not have the PE license. PE license is not part of the university education and graduation process. You get the degree and you can work as an engineer, no further tests required - unless you have a position that requires the PE license.

Also, to even be able to take the PE test, you have to have some work experience. First you pass the EIT test, and this is comprehensive for all engineers. It covers basics of all fields of engineering, with some math, physics, chemistry thrown in. Then with sufficent work experience per your state rules, you can take the PE test in the subject field you want.

Although I have my PE license, and have had since I was first able to get it, for my career it has been mostly brownie points on the resume. I am Metallurgical Engineering PE, and for my field it is not much of a requirement, unless you want to do expert witness testimony in court.

[Htown Harry]

Do the Canadian universities have a required, nationally-standardized exit exam?

In the U.S., there are ABET-accredited engineering schools that vary greatly in quality and their desire to weed out students. Few schools require that students take the FE exam, and passing it as a condition of graduation is rare.

I think overall, fewer than 50% of engineering BS candidates take the FE exam. The pass rate is in the 70% range. The P.E. exams have similar pass rates.

(None of the schools FelipeA is considering are a concern in this area. So far as I know, all are upper-tier programs.)

[M Paquette]

Note that the California PE test for Civil Engineering has a substantial Seismic Engineering section, a half day test just on that. It's a bit of a bear to pass.

[FelipeA]

Thank you Harry, I'm leaning towards SJSU with CEE now, save money on tuition, more versatile degree as Env is a subfield of Civil in California. Pomona and SFSU are also CEE, but all the schools' curricula have 80% minimum overlap, the core curricula are almost identical-all going up to hydrology, the more prestigious schools requiring a bit more Physics or upper division math, it's more of variety within electives.

Only 50% take the FE Before graduating? Not something I'd expect. I've already thought about the FE and that's something I'd want to have at least 2 attempts at before graduation- try once at end Junior year/beginning Senior and in case I don't pass, later in Senior after more studying.

PE requires 2 years of EIT if my degree is accredited, 4 if not (only UCSD) and it seems quite relevant since most infrastructure I'll be designing will be subject to government oversight.

Building energy and water self sufficient homes seems the most appealing of the many areas I'm curious about to, especially automating the construction of, but I'd need some interning experience to be sure.

This has been really clarifying, I initially thought SJSU wasn't as good since the grade required is lower than the UC's so there'd be a less motivated peer group but any school will have some slackers.

[jIMOh]

The key to success in Engineering is EXPERIENCE, so I would change the problem description and change how you solve the problem.

Ask which of your 8 choices give you the BEST experience. Co-ops, internships and similar. If any of the universities is located close to a company which hires a lot of environmental engineers, that is likely a good choice. Companies tend to hire close to their location- meaning if you go to college close to that location, it will help you.

My school administration SUCKED (I went to GMI/Kettering in Flint, MI). But the school gave me an experience I can NEVER underestimate (I co-oped enough that I had 3 years/36 months of experience when I graduated. To give you an idea, my starting salary at my employer was about $5k per year higher because of that experience. I was not hired at entry level. Don't rate a school because people say the administration sucked- the Univ of Cincinnati co-ops at work all say the admin at UC sucks, I said the same thing about GMI. I think the issue is with the people, not the school, just sayin.

So instead of focusing on your DEGREE, focus on the jobs you want to get. Do you need a PE to do that job? Do you need a masters degree? Then shape your decision this way:


1) Choose the career you want (job type, company type)
2) Pick a generic degree which opens the most opportunities (for example environmental engineering is more generic than environmental chemistry; Mechanical Engineering is more generic than Aerospace Engineering)
3) What certifications will you need once you graduate? Many civil and field engineers need to get a PE license, you may want to start this process by taking the EIT as a Junior or Senior. See if any of the professors in the college have PEs.
4) Ask hard questions about the faculty at school of choice-
If you want environmental engineering jobs, how many of your classes will be taught by environmental engineers? Most of my ME courses were taught by Mechanical Engineers, however if you have to take a lot of chemistry or civil engineering classes to get an En Eng degree at one school, those faculty members are not going to be the best role models or have the right contacts to help you get the job you want (remember the goal is a job, not a degree).
5) Ask each of the 8 colleges for list of classes you will have to take. How many of those classes are common to all 8 programs. Calculus, physics, chemistry, psychology etc. Can you find a cheap way to take all these pre-requisites (local community college) then make a decision in 2 years which school to transfer to?
When doing same analysis of the classes, ask yourself this:
a) who teaches the class (professor or teaching assistant)
b) is there a lab with the class?
c) What is the student/teacher ratio (5:1 or 10:1 suggest that school likely has a lot of specialized electives- these specialized electives are what make a school good or great, IMO) 50:1 suggests every student takes the same classes
d) How many free engineering electives can you take within your Major? At my school, MEs had 5 engineering electives, EEs only had two. For the ME electives it was take 2 classes from this list, one class from this list, one class from this list, and one free elective within department. Check these rules out before you sign up.
e) How large are the departments at each school? I would suggest it is better professionally to attend the larger program than the cheapest program. The cost of the larger program will pay dividends as you will meet more environmental engineers and like minded people while going to school. This will pay off professionally (my best job contacts are people I meet at customers and people I know from college).
f) larger programs offer required classes more often. Meaning some classes are offered every semester, some classes are offered once per year- ask how often each class on the list made in #5 are offered? In some small engineering programs, some classes might only be offered once a semester in odd years and others once per semester in even years- those classes might be required so it might delay getting a degree and earning money if you take a semester off or fail a class.

Realize that most people complain about college because they don't realize all the rules which exist for choosing courses and majors before they choose the school. You need to dig into that detail before making the decision.

To summarize, focus on getting a job, and look for things which differentiate the experience and the value of the education.

Cost is what you pay
Value is what you receive.

Focus on getting the most value, not paying the least. You will get what you pay for

[enginerd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jIMOh The key to success in Engineering is EXPERIENCE,

I am a Civil working in the Civil field and use almost nothing from what I learned in college...it is all experience and on the job training.

Also, definitely take the FE before you graduate. The only people that have a hard time passing are those who wait. Similarly, take your PE as soon as you're eligible. Both tests are simply a re-hash of stuff you learned in college, very little from real world experience. SO the longer you wait, the more you forget.

[38Chevy454]

Quote:

Originally Posted by enginerd I am a Civil working in the Civil field and use almost nothing from what I learned in college...it is all experience and on the job training. Also, definitely take the FE before you graduate. The only people that have a hard time passing are those who wait. Similarly, take your PE as soon as you're eligible. Both tests are simply a re-hash of stuff you learned in college, very little from real world experience. SO the longer you wait, the more you forget.

X2, since the FE (what used to be the EIT, I forgot the name changed) covers everything, best time to take it is spring when you graduate or right after graduation. The PE exam should be easier since it is in your field of specialty. At least for me, passing the EIT was the bigger hurdle, the PE exam was relatively easy.

[Clone]

If you have any consideration of getting a Master's degree, then I would take the Civil Engineering as a BS degree, and most likely take the Environmental as a Master's degree, perhaps at a different University. One of the challenges I has was that I took a number of grad level courses as an undergrad. When they offered a distance Master's degree, it wouldn't work because I had already taken half the course work.

Definitely take the FE in your last semester as an undergrad. Then take the PE as soon as it is allowed.

[photoguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Htown Harry Do the Canadian universities have a required, nationally-standardized exit exam?

No. There isn't any standardized exit exam.

Quote:

In the U.S., there are ABET-accredited engineering schools that vary greatly in quality and their desire to weed out students. Few schools require that students take the FE exam, and passing it as a condition of graduation is rare.

My brother went into an engineering program at UofT where they explicitly try to eliminate half the class by year two (either they fail out or voluntarily drop). This isn't the norm though.

[Spanky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by enginerd I am a Civil working in the Civil field and use almost nothing from what I learned in college...it is all experience and on the job training. Also, definitely take the FE before you graduate. The only people that have a hard time passing are those who wait. Similarly, take your PE as soon as you're eligible. Both tests are simply a re-hash of stuff you learned in college, very little from real world experience. SO the longer you wait, the more you forget.

So PE simply demonstrates you can rehash topics learned in college. It may not mean that you are a competent civil engineer. It is another bureaucratic requirement by the government!

[jIMOh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanky So PE simply demonstrates you can rehash topics learned in college. It may not mean that you are a competent civil engineer. It is another bureaucratic requirement by the government!

I met people with a series 7 and 66 which could not explain the difference between state 529 plans, so take every certification with a grain of salt.

[Htown Harry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanky So PE simply demonstrates you can rehash topics learned in college. It may not mean that you are a competent civil engineer. It is another bureaucratic requirement by the government!

Easy there, Spanky. You are taking Enginerd's statement at face value. I disagree that the second exam is "just" a rehash of school topics. The subject matter is the same, of course, but the test serves as an equalizer for the great variety in the quality of the schooling received in engineering school.

You are also conflating the test with the overall P.E. requirements, which also include demonstrated engineer-level experience and recommendations from P.E.'s who have supervised the applicant's work.

Sure, there is an element of bureaucracy and protectionism in any licensing scheme, but what would you propose as an alternative method of assuring public safety? Isn't there a public / government interest in knowing the dam upstream from your house is sound, or that the bridge used by the school bus carrying your kids has a proper foundation?

[FelipeA]

I get a PE is part beaurocratic, part legitimately for public safety- one of those half truth areas. I'm fine taking it and seeing it as a part of my education in Engineering. So many things will come out in the next decades that I'll have to keep learning if I'm serious about creating value here.

Thanks jiMoh
1) Choose the career you want (job type, company type)
Not sure here as any water treatment or sustainable
house building would satisfy me intellectually and financially.

2) Pick a generic degree which opens the most opportunities.
Civil and Environmental Engineering is as generic as I can get here.

3) What certifications will you need once you graduate?
FE and ABET accredited are the big ones, PE is not essential but a payboost and more managing others, signing off plans if I'm in a water treatment plant based on seniority.


4) Ask hard questions about the faculty at school of choice-
If you want environmental engineering jobs, how many of your classes will be taught by environmental engineers?
Once I'm in upper division all the schools have Civil or Environmental (same accreditation) as the majority of my teachers.

5) Ask each of the 8 colleges for list of classes you will have to take. How many of those classes are common to all 8 programs.
Up to Multi-Variable Calculus, linear Algebra, general chemistry, Physics electricity and magnetism for all. Some require additional Physics, vector Calculus.
All require fluid mechanics, hydrology, 2-3 engineering electives and 2-3 design courses. The curricula seem extremely similar, even in electives. I've already take over 80% of lower division at community college and upper division offers better internship opportunities so I'm wanting to start that sooner than later.
b) is there a lab with the class?
All schools have some labs, none seem to above here except the Calpolys which have more electives available.
c) What is the student/teacher ratio (5:1 or 10:1 suggest that school likely has a lot of specialized electives- these specialized electives are what make a school good or great, IMO) 50:1 suggests every student takes the same classes
Lowest is 19:1 with Irvine and Slo, highest is SJSU at 33:1

d) How many free engineering electives can you take within your Major? At my school, MEs had 5 engineering electives, EEs only had two. For the ME electives it was take 2 classes from this list, one class from this list, one class from this list, and one free elective within department. Check these rules out before you sign up.
Its 3 electives and 2-3 designs, across the boars
e) How large are the departments at each school? I would suggest it is better professionally to attend the larger program than the cheapest program. The cost of the larger program will pay dividends as you will meet more environmental engineers and like minded people while going to school. This will pay off professionally (my best job contacts are people I meet at customers and people I know from college).
All the schools have a decent program, SFSU seems to have the lowest quality by ranking.

f) larger programs offer required classes more often. Meaning some classes are offered every semester, some classes are offered once per year- ask how often each class on the list made in #5 are offered? In some small engineering programs, some classes might only be offered once a semester in odd years and others once per semester in even years- those classes might be required so it might delay getting a degree and earning money if you take a semester off or fail a class.

I agree, I definitely also need to look into the specific rules for each school. I've emailed all 8 schools for internship and co-op opportunities. None seem too extravagant here, though every single school has engineering clubs which seem to be the easiest route to initial experience while I find internships. Slo does have a page for internships but that's the only one. Slo is also the school I'm least likely to get into, I have an admission guarantee with Irvine.

I'm looking to get out with a job that's intellectually stimulating, offers 60k+ per year after taxes for 30-40hour work, and that I believe in. A profit sharing self sustainable company automating the building of self sustainable homes (3d printing houses with built in water recycling and catching, solar panels, strong insulation) sounds ideal but that may be harder to find, especially for interning.

[jIMOh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelipeA I get a PE is part beaurocratic, part legitimately for public safety- one of those half truth areas. I'm fine taking it and seeing it as a part of my education in Engineering. So many things will come out in the next decades that I'll have to keep learning if I'm serious about creating value here. Thanks jiMoh 1) Choose the career you want (job type, company type) Not sure here as any water treatment or sustainable house building would satisfy me intellectually and financially. 2) Pick a generic degree which opens the most opportunities. Civil and Environmental Engineering is as generic as I can get here. 3) What certifications will you need once you graduate? FE and ABET accredited are the big ones, PE is not essential but a payboost and more managing others, signing off plans if I'm in a water treatment plant based on seniority. 4) Ask hard questions about the faculty at school of choice- If you want environmental engineering jobs, how many of your classes will be taught by environmental engineers? Once I'm in upper division all the schools have Civil or Environmental (same accreditation) as the majority of my teachers. 5) Ask each of the 8 colleges for list of classes you will have to take. How many of those classes are common to all 8 programs. Up to Multi-Variable Calculus, linear Algebra, general chemistry, Physics electricity and magnetism for all. Some require additional Physics, vector Calculus. All require fluid mechanics, hydrology, 2-3 engineering electives and 2-3 design courses. The curricula seem extremely similar, even in electives. I've already take over 80% of lower division at community college and upper division offers better internship opportunities so I'm wanting to start that sooner than later. b) is there a lab with the class? All schools have some labs, none seem to above here except the Calpolys which have more electives available. c) What is the student/teacher ratio (5:1 or 10:1 suggest that school likely has a lot of specialized electives- these specialized electives are what make a school good or great, IMO) 50:1 suggests every student takes the same classes Lowest is 19:1 with Irvine and Slo, highest is SJSU at 33:1 d) How many free engineering electives can you take within your Major? At my school, MEs had 5 engineering electives, EEs only had two. For the ME electives it was take 2 classes from this list, one class from this list, one class from this list, and one free elective within department. Check these rules out before you sign up. Its 3 electives and 2-3 designs, across the boars e) How large are the departments at each school? I would suggest it is better professionally to attend the larger program than the cheapest program. The cost of the larger program will pay dividends as you will meet more environmental engineers and like minded people while going to school. This will pay off professionally (my best job contacts are people I meet at customers and people I know from college). All the schools have a decent program, SFSU seems to have the lowest quality by ranking. f) larger programs offer required classes more often. Meaning some classes are offered every semester, some classes are offered once per year- ask how often each class on the list made in #5 are offered? In some small engineering programs, some classes might only be offered once a semester in odd years and others once per semester in even years- those classes might be required so it might delay getting a degree and earning money if you take a semester off or fail a class. I agree, I definitely also need to look into the specific rules for each school. I've emailed all 8 schools for internship and co-op opportunities. None seem too extravagant here, though every single school has engineering clubs which seem to be the easiest route to initial experience while I find internships. Slo does have a page for internships but that's the only one. Slo is also the school I'm least likely to get into, I have an admission guarantee with Irvine. I'm looking to get out with a job that's intellectually stimulating, offers 60k+ per year after taxes for 30-40hour work, and that I believe in. A profit sharing self sustainable company automating the building of self sustainable homes (3d printing houses with built in water recycling and catching, solar panels, strong insulation) sounds ideal but that may be harder to find, especially for interning.

Most engineering jobs I see are 40-60 hours, not 30-40.

The ones which work 30 are likely the ones which work for themselves I think.

[FelipeA]

40-50 Hours as a typical minimum while I work for someone else. Got it, thanks for helping me make these adjustments in my expectations. I'm fine with that, I just don't want that level of work to exceed a decade before starting a business.

Done some more research and reporting results. Also updated all my Supplemental Applications.

I can take the FE within a year of graduating at any of the schools I chose, I can retake it before graduating in case I don't succeed the first.

I've narrowed my list to 4 I'm taking serious- UCI, SJSU, Cal San Luis Obispo, HSU. They all have very similar curriculums, SJSU or HSU would take a semester, maybe year less time due to a shorter curriculum possible in 120 units vs UCI and Slo with about 190-200 units (more math, physics, and engineering.) UCI seems to have the largest research facilities of these schools dedicated to CEE and after watching a ted talk by the dean of Engineering there, I feel like they'll have more cutting-edge technology available (1 class required at UCI is on this exact topic.)

All have at least 6 labs/design courses and at least 5 active clubs in Civil or Environmental Engineering related fields. They all have some internships, though with different foci, and a good reputation in their field. Presidenting or any leadership role an Engr Club will expose me to more possible internships and this is my main strategy if they are not readily available, this will be easier taking less units, one of the reasons SJSU seems so appealing. I plan to look for internships as the first thing I do when I transfer.

All offer Civil except HSU so it allows for more exploration of where within the CEE field I want to specialize. They require between 3-5 Engr Electives but at least 5 courses in the core curriculum are already design labs at each school. Between 15-30:1 Faculty:student ratio with most upper-division taught by faculty in the field.

Schools Cut:
SFSU offers little in focusing on Environmental compared to the rest.
SDSU feels the same as SJSU but for a higher cost since I'd move.
UCSD doesn't have an ABET-accredited program for Environmental Engr.

I'll keep updated on this- I'm expecting to get into each school except Cal Slo as I'm missing 2 required classes for Slo.

[Htown Harry]

It sounds like you're on your way to a good decision with any of these choices, Felipe.

The general reputation and notoriety of each school might be a tie-breaker in making your final choice. I hesitate to bring this up, because it's a relatively minor factor, and probably only applicable if you think you might be interested in looking nationwide for your first job out of school.

I'm in Texas, familiar with California schools primarily through leisure travel and being a sports fan. I know little more than the UC schools are a notch above the State University schools, but the California system as a whole is highly regarded.

We recently posted for an entry-level engineering position and received BSCE applications from all over the country. (Our use of Monster and other job boards has increased this trend in recent years.) A surprising number of applications came from Californians. In sorting for "interesting" resumes, I had to rely on sketchy knowledge of some of the schools. For example, I had to look up the difference between Cal Tech and Cal Polytech, because I had them mixed up.

I bring this up because I had to look up HSU just now. Even then, it's not a school I recognized.

[MikeTN]

My advice is to contact the department at each school you apply to and ask for a list of the employers who have recently hired their new graduates. My son did this and it really helped him make a decision. He ended up studying mechanical engineering at Purdue because he wanted to work for several of the employers that recruited their grads. He was accepted at Cal Poly but didn't like their employers as much.

[FelipeA]

Thank you Harry, you really inspired me to do some more research.

And thanks Mike, that's a great idea. I emailed the department chair and general Civil/Environmental Engineering department chair for a list of statistics on employers for my 4 schools.

[FelipeA]

I've gone through the curriculums in more detail, looking at how often required courses are offered and SJSU came out on top with 3-4 of most pre-requisite courses each semester, compared to 1-2 for each other school.

Cal Poly and SJSU responded with a list of employers but only Cal had statistics.

I like SJSU's employers more though, and it'd cost me 20-25k for the entire degree, since I'd be taking some classes at community college to finish lower division pre-requisites while starting half time at SJSU to finish the long engineering sequences.

Downside is SJSU doesn't have a Senior Designing Final Project which the other 3 have, lots of design courses and a capstone course detailing the principles of CE Systems.

HSU wouldn't make as much sense as it's Environmental Resource Engineering, which doesn't offer as relevant to what I want as Civil and Environmental Engineering at SJSU.

UCI has great weather and more selective than SJSU but there'd be less support, it'd be more expensive, and it only offers 1 listing of each course per most semesters.Each semester would cost at least double SJSU, not including housing, food, transportation, hygiene.

My gut is pointing me to SJSU, lower costs, 5-10 relevant clubs to practice designing and building or lead if I'm having a particularly hard time finding an internship, 2 job fairs/yr, plenty of links to local employers for finding internships.

[jIMOh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelipeA I've gone through the curriculums in more detail, looking at how often required courses are offered and SJSU came out on top with 3-4 of most pre-requisite courses each semester, compared to 1-2 for each other school. Cal Poly and SJSU responded with a list of employers but only Cal had statistics. I like SJSU's employers more though, and it'd cost me 20-25k for the entire degree, since I'd be taking some classes at community college to finish lower division pre-requisites while starting half time at SJSU to finish the long engineering sequences. Downside is SJSU doesn't have a Senior Designing Final Project which the other 3 have, lots of design courses and a capstone course detailing the principles of CE Systems. HSU wouldn't make as much sense as it's Environmental Resource Engineering, which doesn't offer as relevant to what I want as Civil and Environmental Engineering at SJSU. UCI has great weather and more selective than SJSU but there'd be less support, it'd be more expensive, and it only offers 1 listing of each course per most semesters.Each semester would cost at least double SJSU, not including housing, food, transportation, hygiene. My gut is pointing me to SJSU, lower costs, 5-10 relevant clubs to practice designing and building or lead if I'm having a particularly hard time finding an internship, 2 job fairs/yr, plenty of links to local employers for finding internships.

I am impressed with the depth to which you followed advice.

Here are some reminders about job hunting. You have a lot of time to "set yourself up" for this, but seeing as to how you have done lots of homework, and the goal is to get a job, here it goes:

1) Most jobs come from people which you know, not resumes submitted online. This means you want to meet people which work in the field you are interested in.
2) Meeting people does happen at job fairs. You will likely have better success meeting at trade conventions- for example research what environmental engineering conventions exist- many would be in places like Vegas or be timed right after school gets out. I meet lots of contacts at our trade shows.
3) Get a job with a company as early as possible. I co-oped my freshman year. It is NEVER too early. Even if the job is pushing papers or doing undesireable work, realize you have a company name on your resume. That is going to get you your next interview, something to talk about when you meet someone at a trade show, and tell them what you want to do next.
4) The first 4 years of your career, people will ask about college and degree. I was just at an interview yesterday and none of the 3 people asked about my degree (I have 17 years experience). The sooner you focus on experience, the easier it will be to interview.
5) TREAT PEOPLE WELL. You might meet someone on an internship at age 19 which you have to work with again when you are 39. It is a small world. Be very mindful of the relationships you make, and treat everyone well.